Transgender [Serious]

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

those who want to be "fixed" can go for it, but some people are legit happier the way they are (without others discrimination of course) yeah, it's treatable, but unlike AIDS, not everybody would be happier with the cure, and not everybody would be healthier with a cure.

>Happier as they are

>As they are = body-mind imbalance 

 

Hmmm...that seems to go against the idea that they're living in hell right?

 

If your statement is true, it would mean that public perception is the solution here

 

Wishing HT was available to them, largely.

 

Not sure why you feel people need to go to any lengths at all to receive general decency.

Costs about as much as a decent car. If it's that integral to your existence taking out a loan can't be that damaging

 

The point I'm making is, while there are a few that are in absolute torment, it seems like a large portion are ok with just a superficial cover-up like cross dressing and acting feminine (or masculine I guess)

 

When I say prove it, that's what I mean, show to us how important is is to you, before expecting us to cater to your desires

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

It may come as a surprise but not everyone's mental state and feelings are the same even among similar people.

They also have differences in how much money they have and can use...and money isn't the only issue...
I think I'm just getting tired I should probably say more but that's all for now I suppose.
 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

>Happier as they are

>As they are = body-mind imbalance 

 

Hmmm...that seems to go against the idea that they're living in hell right?

 

If your statement is true, it would mean that public perception is the solution here

 

 

Costs about as much as a decent car. If it's that integral to your existence taking out a loan can't be that damaging

 

The point I'm making is, while there are a few that are in absolute torment, it seems like a large portion are ok with just a superficial cover-up like cross dressing and acting feminine (or masculine I guess)

 

When I say prove it, that's what I mean, show to us how important is is to you, before expecting us to cater to your desires

People shouldn't need to pay for their lifestyle and identity to be socially acceptable.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

People shouldn't need to pay for their lifestyle and identity to be socially acceptable.

*shrugs* rest of us do, and a significant portion of trans people do, I'm with them, not a crossdresser wanting tampons in a bathroom

 

This isn't hard to understand Giga, either it's a vital part of your life, or it's not. If it's not, expecting me to treat it like it is, makes me a cuck for your satisfaction. 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

*shrugs* rest of us do, and a significant portion of trans people do, I'm with them, not a crossdresser wanting tampons in a bathroom

 

This isn't hard to understand Giga, either it's a vital part of your life, or it's not. If it's not, expecting me to treat it like it is, makes me a cuck for your satisfaction.

 

You are bisexual. What additional costs does this incur you?

 

How about your middle eastern(?) heritage?

 

People work too hard to justify intolerance, and at this point it is clear the discussion is pointless.

[vla1ne]

>Happier as they are

>As they are = body-mind imbalance 

 

Hmmm...that seems to go against the idea that they're living in hell right?

 

If your statement is true, it would mean that public perception is the solution here

I mean those who would choose to go through the transition instead of take the treatment. some people might be just as happy, to go through the transition, instead of take the cure. some mental issues will cause you to harm others, or are directly damaging to your physical health. trans, isn't a deadly problem, so some trans might not care all that much about the problem.

 

public perception is pretty much the solution. remove the discrimination, then there'll be far less damage to the trans community, honestly, the worst part of the hell that trans people face (from what i hear) is the discrimination/bullying faced from others. not that there aren't other issues, which is why the cure would probably help more people than the transition. i have no doubt most would still prefer to solve the problem via HT, but since it's not a complete negative, there's no real reason to say that it deserves anything less than other communities.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You are bisexual. What additional costs does this incur you?

 

How about your middle eastern(?) heritage?

 

People work too hard to justify intolerance, and at this point it is clear the discussion is pointless.

LGBT as a whole looks petty when it's parts expect others to fight for what they aren't willing to do. 

 

What, the Persian blood? Not really a problem, Islam committed genocide against my people, if anything I fit in more because of it. Plus I don't identify with that cluster funk of a region. 

 

Not intolerance, just consistency. Jesse has shown that hormone therapy to a degree numbs the suffering, and nearly 70% get it done. 

 

Don't expect me to fight for you, or defend you, when you won't fight for yourself.

I mean those who would choose to go through the transition instead of take the treatment. some people might be just as happy, to go through the transition, instead of take the cure. some mental issues will cause you to harm others, or are directly damaging to your physical health. trans, isn't a deadly problem, so some trans might not care all that much about the problem.

 

public perception is pretty much the solution. remove the discrimination, then there'll be far less damage to the trans community, honestly, the worst part of the hell that trans people face (from what i hear) is the discrimination/bullying faced from others. not that there aren't other issues, which is why the cure would probably help more people than the transition. i have no doubt most would still prefer to solve the problem via HT, but since it's not a complete negative, there's no real reason to say that it deserves anything less than other communities.

I think you're misunderstanding hormone therapy....it's not a cure, it is the transition, or atleast as close to it as you can get without going Bruce Jenner

 

Public perception implies it's superficial. LGB has a real cause to fight for. We had to pay 300K more in taxes to get the same rights a straight couple would, we were unable to adopt without going through a mess cause single parent adoptions are a mess. We couldn't see our dying spouses in the hospital ward.

 

I mean do people call me baka at times? Sure. Will some never accept me? funk em. But LGB had actual grievances to fix, and those grievances had a tangible effect

 

Edit: Since my bisexuality is suddenly under fire here

 

I might add Giga, I don't get as much hate for being bi, because I don't go out in the middle of the street and twerk with my bf in a tight leather costume during gay pride events. I keep my private life to myself and don't try to traumatize kids for my own satisfaction 

 

I don't demand special privileges 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinder_(biohacking)

 

As far as I am concerned, even if someone doesn't have gender dysphoria, they should be able to change their body however they want.

 

Ideally society wouldn't be attached to norms such that if I want to grow a huge fucken tentacle instead of having a tongue I would be able to with being shunned.

 

Transitioning is such small fry compared to the changes that one could want to make to their body. I want people to be able to transition and then undo it if they don't like it.

 

That is the scientific ideal that I am aiming for when it comes to being trans, not your [Winter's] ambition of there being a way to stop people wanting to transition.

 

 

Also, some personal strings to tie up:

 

It's not. It's a condition. Remember that.

 

No, and even if there was, I wouldn't touch it. I would be losing basically all of the defining points of my personality. If you destroy my identity to such a degree, you may as well kill me.

 

 

I do. I am extremely funking clever, probably because of my autism.

We talking autism or Aspergers here.

 

But fine, go with downs, point still stands

 

I mean ideally we're just quantum waves that can take the shape of anything we want. Sadly we're  have to wait a 1000 years.

[~~~~]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinder_(biohacking)

 

As far as I am concerned, even if someone doesn't have gender dysphoria, they should be able to change their body however they want.

 

Ideally society wouldn't be attached to norms such that if I want to grow a huge fucken tentacle instead of having a tongue I would be able to with being shunned.

 

Transitioning is such small fry compared to the changes that one could want to make to their body. I want people to be able to transition and then undo it if they don't like it.

 

That is the scientific ideal that I am aiming for when it comes to being trans, not your [Winter's] ambition of there being a way to stop people wanting to transition.

 

 

Also, some personal strings to tie up:

 

I mean autism is a mental illness

It's not. It's a condition. Remember that.

 

there's no cure for it

No, and even if there was, I wouldn't touch it. I would be losing basically all of the defining points of my personality. If you destroy my identity to such a degree, you may as well kill me.

 

 

you don't go around saying autism is great. 

I do. I am extremely funking clever, probably because of my autism.

[UltimateIRS]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinder_(biohacking)

 

As far as I am concerned, even if someone doesn't have gender dysphoria, they should be able to change their body however they want.

 

Ideally society wouldn't be attached to norms such that if I want to grow a huge fucken tentacle instead of having a tongue I would be able to with being shunned.

 

Transitioning is such small fry compared to the changes that one could want to make to their body. I want people to be able to transition and then undo it if they don't like it.

 

That is the scientific ideal that I am aiming for when it comes to being trans, not your [Winter's] ambition of there being a way to stop people wanting to transition.

 

Suppose someone wanted to make changes to his or her brain in order to stop wanting to transition. Do you believe that should be possible?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

People really misunderstand me here, I just want the suicide rate to stop dropping, I don't want you guys to half ass your happiness, if hormone therapy works, you shouldn't settle for ANYTHING less than that. I've heard that my comments here have been received as trans-phobic or as hate speech. 

 

All I can do is to offer my apologies there, but as far as my intents, nothing could be further from the the truth.

 

I don't believe T is in the same movement as LG, but I likewise think B also needs to split off, regardless of that, I assume you are good people, and the nation owes you some kindness for that

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

People really misunderstand me here, I just want the suicide rate to stop dropping, I don't want you guys to half ass your happiness, if hormone therapy works, you shouldn't settle for ANYTHING less than that. I've heard that my comments here have been received as trans-phobic or as hate speech. 

 

All I can do is to offer my apologies there, but as far as my intents, nothing could be further from the the truth.

 

I don't believe T is in the same movement as LG, but I likewise think B also needs to split off, regardless of that, I assume you are good people, and the nation owes you some kindness for that

First off, you can't comprehend how much I appreciate this sort of concession.

 

As for hormone therapy, there are a few caveats to keep in mind. As mentioned before, it has a very real price point just because something is important to someone, even if it is the most important thing, does not mean it is affordable to them. This is an issue in and of itself, as it needs to become more available. Them, as well as most medications, often have their prices throttled by corporate greed. As a person who absolutely depends on prescription medication to function (and having been screwed by pharmaceutical companies in the past) I can day that the reasoning of "if it is important to you you can pay for it" really doesn't hold up at the end of the day.

 

Then, an even more complex issue, is that it should be a matter of choice. Some people do not believe transitioning is right for them. I am not really sure how this extends to HT, but I certainly feel some would be morally or ideally opposed to it, while still wishing to be treated as first rate citizens. Yes, there are risks. Perverts could potentially use these new accommodations as avenues to perform heinous acts, but that should not be used as an excuse to make a system that incidentally targets innocent people. The problems would very much need to be weeded out, but frankly I think what this country, and world therein, needs is greater greater acceptance toward all (non-harmful) lifestyles.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

First off, you can't comprehend how much I appreciate this sort of concession.

 

As for hormone therapy, there are a few caveats to keep in mind. As mentioned before, it has a very real price point just because something is important to someone, even if it is the most important thing, does not mean it is affordable to them. This is an issue in and of itself, as it needs to become more available. Them, as well as most medications, often have their prices throttled by corporate greed. As a person who absolutely depends on prescription medication to function (and having been screwed by pharmaceutical companies in the past) I can day that the reasoning of "if it is important to you you can pay for it" really doesn't hold up at the end of the day.

 

Then, an even more complex issue, is that it should be a matter of choice. Some people do not believe transitioning is right for them. I am not really sure how this extends to HT, but I certainly feel some would be morally or ideally opposed to it, while still wishing to be treated as first rate citizens. Yes, there are risks. Perverts could potentially use these new accommodations as avenues to perform heinous acts, but that should not be used as an excuse to make a system that incidentally targets innocent people. The problems would very much need to be weeded out, but frankly I think what this country, and world therein, needs is greater greater acceptance toward all (non-harmful) lifestyles.

^_^ least I could do, I came off more abrasive than I intended to, agreed with basically everything on para two. Dunno how I feel about para 3.

 

Can you explain to me how you can be trans (mind disagrees with body), but then be fine with not molding your body to your minds desires. This goes back to the bathroom issue, if you look like a guy/girl, people aren't gonna care that much. Nobody is staring at your junk in the bathroom. 

 

It just seems disingenuous, like you want me to respect that you're going through some really painful mental hurdles, sure. I'll do that. But if you don't follow through even if you CAN, doesn't that make me look kinda foolish? 

[Sunshine Jesse]

Can you explain to me how you can be trans (mind disagrees with body), but then be fine with not molding your body to your minds desires. This goes back to the bathroom issue, if you look like a guy/girl, people aren't gonna care that much. Nobody is staring at your junk in the bathroom. 

 

It just seems disingenuous, like you want me to respect that you're going through some really painful mental hurdles, sure. I'll do that. But if you don't follow through even if you CAN, doesn't that make me look kinda foolish? 

There's a lot of commitment involved, and some people simply have it worse than others. Some find the costs and risks (coming out, paying for doctor's visits and medication, etc) to outweigh the amount they suffer, so they're fine with not changing. They just want to be acknowledged. I think people should be treated with the same amount of respect and care no matter how much they're actually suffering, because undermining the suffering of one person is worse than over..mining...(?) the suffering of hundreds. The former actually results in people dying, the latter results in people getting concessions they may or may not truly need or deserve.

 

The truth of the matter is that it functions the opposite way in terms of numbers; hundreds are left to quietly suffer, but only a few reap benefits they don't need or deserve.

 

I have to ask you, would you rather feel foolish for being wrong in supporting someone, or would you rather feel guilty for not supporting someone in their time of need? This question is at the heart of many issues, be they political, economic, or social, but I'm asking it to you in this context alone.

 

As simple as the "bathroom issue" is on the outside, the circumstances surrounding it are actually immensely complicated and one could make a reasonable argument for it being both the fault of the person and society's views on gender and sexuality at the same time. But that's another topic for another day.

 

Personally I just think everything ever should be unisex but we're still a little ways away from actually accomplishing that sort of thing.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Personally I just think everything ever should be unisex but we're still a little ways away from actually accomplishing that sort of thing.

It's honestly a matter of being reasonable for me

 

I don't entirely thing the validity of one's trans-ness is dictated by weather they use a bathroom or not. So in that view I'm confused by both Ted Cruz and y'all making such a big deal out of it. 

 

I don't think there are people infiltrating the women's bathroom as Trans people to rape 6 year olds, and I also don't think your life is over if as a trans woman you piss in the men's room

 

There was once a chlorine leak in the men's room at the chem department a month or so ago (lab above had an accident). Utterly unusable. I urgently needed to piss so I pissed in the woman's room. Took about 30 seconds. I didn't rape anyone, and my dick didn't fall off. 

 

People need to get over themselves

 

It comes down to common sense. There are plenty of trans people who do look genuinely female, there are others...that don't

 

If you look like a guy, use the guys room. If you look like a chick, use the women's room. If you're a 40 year old trans female with a neckbeard and skirt and a need for public validation, hold it till you get home

[VCR_CAT]

It's honestly a matter of being reasonable for me

 

I don't entirely thing the validity of one's trans-ness is dictated by weather they use a bathroom or not. So in that view I'm confused by both Ted Cruz and y'all making such a big deal out of it. 

 

I don't think there are people infiltrating the women's bathroom as Trans people to rape 6 year olds, and I also don't think your life is over if as a trans woman you piss in the men's room

 

There was once a chlorine leak in the men's room at the chem department a month or so ago (lab above had an accident). Utterly unusable. I urgently needed to piss so I pissed in the woman's room. Took about 30 seconds. I didn't rape anyone, and my dick didn't fall off. 

 

People need to get over themselves

 

It comes down to common sense. There are plenty of trans people who do look genuinely female, there are others...that don't

 

If you look like a guy, use the guys room. If you look like a chick, use the women's room. If you're a 40 year old trans female with a neckbeard and skirt and a need for public validation, hold it till you get home

 

It'd be greatly appreciated if you took the time to formulate an argument that was neither based upon a strawman of how you see Trans people, or off the argument "Well I'm okay with it, so everyone else should be". The world doesn't revolve around you, and our own perceptions of other people are hardly ever correct. Unless you have undeniable proof that this is about what you say it is, stop looking down on others because you don't sympathize with them.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It'd be greatly appreciated if you took the time to formulate an argument that was neither based upon a strawman of how you see Trans people, or off the argument "Well I'm okay with it, so everyone else should be". The world doesn't revolve around you, and our own perceptions of other people are hardly ever correct. Unless you have undeniable proof that this is about what you say it is, stop looking down on others because you don't sympathize with them.

Oh, so do the vast majority of trans people's confidence rest on the ability to use the urinal?

 

If my claim that it doesn't is false, there's only one other option.

[Dad]

If you're a 40 year old trans female with a neckbeard and skirt and a need to pee cuz you're in public, go to the restroom.

 

I fixed that for you.

 

EDIT:  Make a new topic.  This thread is two months old.  Please don't bump anything older than a month.

[Sunshine Jesse]

Oh, so do the vast majority of trans people's confidence rest on the ability to use the urinal?

 

If my claim that it doesn't is false, there's only one other option.

You don't understand.

 

For a lot of transpeople, not using the right bathroom worsens the feelings of dysphoria. It makes them MORE depressed.

 

I fixed that for you.

 

EDIT:  Make a new topic.  This thread is two months old.  Please don't bump anything older than a month.

Why is bumping an old topic that was still on the front page of the debate forum worse than making a new one? That doesn't make sense.

[Dad]

 

Why is bumping an old topic that was still on the front page of the debate forum worse than making a new one? That doesn't make sense.

 

It's not "worse".  There is no worse.  It's a two month old bump which is very clearly a basic violation of the rules.  Personally, I don't care.  But when I get necro reports, I have to do or say something.

 

You don't want me to step in, yet you want me to act.  Then you complain when I do.  It's quite a headache.

[Sunshine Jesse]

It's not 'very clearly' because there's this clause:

 

This time period varies from section to section, but anything off the first page of a section is most likely too old.

I know it's up to you on how you enforce it but it does seem to be a bit much.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I think jobs are more important than when you piss

[Dad]

I think jobs are more important than when you piss

 

Choosing when to go to the bathroom shouldn't be a full time job.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Honestly I just want to know why it took him 2 months to say that.

 

Anyway the issue I have with your post is mostly.

 

 

1.) I don't entirely thing the validity of one's trans-ness is dictated by weather they use a bathroom or not. So in that view I'm confused by both Ted Cruz and y'all making such a big deal out of it. 

 

2.) People need to get over themselves

 

3.) It comes down to common sense. There are plenty of trans people who do look genuinely female, there are others...that don't

 

4.) If you look like a guy, use the guys room. If you look like a chick, use the women's room. If you're a 40 year old trans female with a neckbeard and skirt and a need for public validation, hold it till you get home

1.) That's your own personal view-point. Not really good for debate. If someone who actually experiences it has these issues then it kinda shows that it's not so simple right?

 

2.) This is just a ridiculous statement, has no real purpose in this thread/section, and is weird coming from the person who led with "Well I don't think that..."

 

3.) You keep saying this. I swear half of your arguments are "It's just common sense". Which basically is saying "If you don't agree you're an idiot/lack common sense". Despite that it's really not common sense.

 

4.) This is saying someone has to hold it in (which is unhealthy) because they don't want to use a bathroom that they feel isn't for them. Wouldn't common sense dictate that is pretty dumb? It's more common sense I'd say to let people use the bathroom they are comfortable with...since that's kind of the point of public restrooms, comfort and convenience.

 

Also what about feminine men and masculine women? I've had people call me ma'am before because of my hair (it's atm long) so does this mean I should use the women's restroom?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Choosing when to go to the bathroom shouldn't be a full time job.

I'd much rather get trans people jobs than get them bathroom rights, pick your battles

[Phantom Roxas]

I'd much rather get trans people jobs than get them bathroom rights, pick your battles

 

Why not both? The two possibilities aren't mutually exclusive.