Transgender [Serious]

[Aerion Brightflame]

But deriving pleasure from sex is a characteristic of a distinctly small part of the animal kingdom. Thus far the list (other than us) is like 4 species - Two types of Monkeys, Pigs and Dolphins. Homosexual sex has been witnessed in more species than just those. You in fact had a very tasteful photo of two male Lions shagging there hearts out, so we know that there is some underlying drive for it that's not pleasure. 

 

And why does genetic manipulation to create an offspring in an incredibly artificial manner validate Homosexuality as a genetic prerogative? Genetic prerogatives don't involve technology usual, they are very base aims. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

One of them is a mental illness, the other is not. They need to be treated differently. If it was really such a dumb factor you wouldn't bother to deny it lol

So now we are supposed to just ignore stupid arguments that people make and believe instead of saying something really simple to deny it? That is completely illogical. If you can easily dispute someone's argument against something then you should, even if it's a stupid argument.

A dumb factor can still influence people's thoughts.

[ihop]

How the funk have we got to discussing dolphins having sex in a discussion about gender dysphoria? The point I'm making is that your definition of things being a mental illness if they don't occur in nature is incredibly arbitrary because so much of what humans do doesn't occur in nature.

[VCR_CAT]

How the f*** have we got to discussing dolphins having sex in a discussion about gender dysphoria? The point I'm making is that your definition of things being a mental illness if they don't occur in nature is incredibly arbitrary because so much of what humans do doesn't occur in nature.

 

TIL it's a mental illness because creatures with no higher cognitive functions or any concept of gender beyond basic biological drives don't do it.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

How the funk have we got to discussing dolphins having sex in a discussion about gender dysphoria? The point I'm making is that your definition of things being a mental illness if they don't occur in nature is incredibly arbitrary because so much of what humans do doesn't occur in nature.

Not to mention that mental illnesses also occur in nature.

 

 

Objectively, homosexuality is indeed a mental disorder. That very much is not the way sexuality is supposed to work. But who gives a sheet. Just because something isn't the standard function does not make anything inherently wrong with it.

[Sunshine Jesse]

That's why the whole tampon thing is stupid. It's just reinforcing the "this is fine" bullshit

No, it's f***ing not. It's part of the process of accepting that these people have a problem that needs to be fixed. It's acknowledging us, which is something that a lot of people simply don't do!

 

Why don't you get this? Why don't you understand what it takes for us to be anything other than a punchline, or as a bunch of deluded fools who don't have a real problem? There is no way we can trust the scientific community at large to come up with a viable alternative because we have hacks and bigots like the one you linked to in your opening post. Why don't you understand that we need to be acknowledged, accepted, and embraced before we can trust people to come up with a solution other than ripping our goddamn genitals up?

 

Transitioning is not a sacred cow that must be seen as the correct decision for all people who question their gender. I don't think a lot of trans people even argue that! But the body is not a temple that must never be changed, so why is the act of transitioning even a problem? Why isn't it fine? It doesn't even kill us like drugs can, so you don't even have the moral highground on that front!

 

The process of transitioning is so intricately linked with transsexuality that it must be accepted in order for us to be accepted. And that's all we want. That's why we get giddy about it; because it's one step closer to us being seen as people and not as motherf***ing jokes.

 

Are you really that blind to how the rest of society functions? Are you really that oblivious to how people other than yourself work? Because it sure as hell seems like it.

Objectively, homosexuality is indeed a mental disorder. That very much is not the way sexuality is supposed to work. But who gives a s***. Just because something isn't the standard function does not make anything inherently wrong with it.

No. No. No. No. Nononono. It's not. It absolutely isn't. Mental disorders are defined as things that cause distress and interfere with their functioning in life. And if society accepts it, it doesn't cause them distress. At all.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

No. No. No. No. Nononono. It's not. It absolutely isn't. Mental disorders are defined as things that cause distress and interfere with their functioning in life. And if society accepts it, it doesn't cause them distress. At all.

I am going with the definition of "thing not working the way it is intended to" (though i am working hard to think of a replacement for intended because i am not bringing religion into this shitstorm). Just because something is out of place doesn't mean it is a problem, or requires remedy.

 

Apologies if my word choice caused offense.

[vla1ne]

well after a day full of good news, i get to run into this...

 

alright let's solve one particular issue that i see continuously here: nature does not give a s***. we got that clear? because that's about the first thing we need to understand before discussing what happens in nature, yes, on a personal level, nature does have what could be considered a goal, but honestly, nature is, at the end of the day, life tying to survive in a world that's really good at killing it.

 

with that out the way, we get to the next stage: what's natural? homosexuality, is natural, cancer is natural, mental illness is natural, it's all natural. in fact you can even say humans, and their inventions, be they synthetic or otherwise, are all natural. you see the problem here? if you boil it down, there isn't a damn thing that's not natural, because nature is literally everything. so what do we do?  

 

nothing. transsexuality isn't genetic to the best of my knowledge, while homosexuality is, meaning it's more than just mental, but at the same time, trans, whine not worthy of promoting as normal, isn't so bad as to require discrimination. it's not normal, but it's not a 'bad' thing per say. is it natural? by standard definition (is it a normal trait of the human body, or is it a malfunction) it's not, sure, some animals can change their genders, we aren't one of them. homosexuality is simpler, it's uncommon, but it's perfectly normal, because it's not a longing for something that the human body cannot do under any normal circumstances, it's merely an attraction.

 

end point, it's not a problem, and at the same time, it doesn't need the massive attention it's getting, either positive or negative. sure, don't discriminate, that ought to be common sense, but there's also no need to put people on a pedestal for a mental illness. don't make it a big deal and it won't be, the best way to make a non-harmful mental illness into an even less harmful mental illness, is to just not treat it as if it's the problem(s) that it clearly isn't.

[Sunshine Jesse]

I am going with the definition of "thing not working the way it is intended to" (though i am working hard to think of a replacement for intended because i am not bringing religion into this shitstorm). Just because something is out of place doesn't mean it is a problem, or requires remedy.

 

Apologies if my word choice caused offense.

It didn't cause any offense. But disorder is absolutely the wrong word to use, especially when you said 'objectively' when you used an incorrect definition of disorder.

 

It's not objectively a mental disorder because it doesn't fit the definition. Objectively, mental disorders require treatment.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

homosexuality is [natural]

Has this been proven? I know that there is anecdotal evidence of such, but is it scientifically determined now? 

It didn't cause any offense. But disorder is absolutely the wrong word to use, especially when you said 'objectively' when you used an incorrect definition of disorder.

 

It's not objectively a mental disorder because it doesn't fit the definition. Objectively, mental disorders require treatment.

Sorry about that, my mistake.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I mean autism is a mental illness, there's no cure for it, you don't go around saying autism is great. 

 

When greater than 95% of your body leans one way (your body+most of your brain), the minority is at fault and is that body is more likely to be the body that's not to be funked with

 

Why are you guys a joke? Maybe the trigger culture and the constant demands for more concessions?

 

I thought you showed me the guy in the OP was in the minority? You can't have it both ways. Either the Scientific community is full of people like him, and there's truth in what he's saying, or he's a bad egg and the rest of the community is looking out for you.

 

Eitherway, mutilating your body to do a half-ass concession to a mental delusion ain't the way to go

 

@Giga Yeah, it became clear that Homosexuality is natural when you realize that you can funk for pleasure and you can create kids with genetic traits of both parents without putting a dick in a vagina

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

you can create kids with genetic traits of both parents without putting a dick in a vagina

Just for clarification, are you calling this natural?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Just for clarification, are you calling this natural?

The pleasure part is, this is just the final nail in the coffin for people who are like "but kids" it's an example of where science actually fixes a problem 

 

Afterthought:

 

Children aren't even really needed from a bio perspective anymore since the life expectancy of the avg human is going up. 

[Sunshine Jesse]

I mean autism is a mental illness, there's no cure for it, you don't go around saying autism is great. 

 

When greater than 95% of your body leans one way (your body+most of your brain), the minority is at fault and is that body is more likely to be the body that's not to be f***ed with

 

Why are you guys a joke? Maybe the trigger culture and the constant demands for more concessions?

 

I thought you showed me the guy in the OP was in the minority? You can't have it both ways. Either the Scientific community is full of people like him, and there's truth in what he's saying, or he's a bad egg and the rest of the community is looking out for you.

 

Eitherway, mutilating your body to do a half-ass concession to a mental delusion ain't the way to go

 

@Giga Yeah, it became clear that Homosexuality is natural when you realize that you can f*** for pleasure and you can create kids with genetic traits of both parents without putting a dick in a vagina

We've been a joke since long before Tumblr was a thing. We've been punchlines on countless sitcoms over decades, and targeted by multiple groups of all types and beliefs over nothing but sheer spite. That's why we're seen as jokes.

 

My view is that an overwhelming majority of scientists don't care. The ones that do care are often the ones that don't like us, as they look for any chance to discredit us. Therefore, until more people accept us, we can't trust most research towards the issue that isn't in our favor, because, historically, dislike motivates people far more than most things do.

 

It's not a black and white issue. Don't try to present it as such.

[vla1ne]

Has this been proven? I know that there is anecdotal evidence of such, but is it scientifically determined now? 

Sorry about that, my mistake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/homosexuality-may-be-triggered-by-environment-after-birth/

it's telegraph, so i would take it with salt, and even if true, it's not concrete, but since it's claimed predictive with 70% accuracy based on genetic data alone. so if true, it's a damn strong argument. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

The pleasure part is, this is just the final nail in the coffin for people who are like "but kids" it's an example of where science actually fixes a problem 

 

Afterthought:

 

Children aren't even really needed from a bio perspective anymore since the life expectancy of the avg human is going up. 

Okay I can't help myself. Even if the average human lived 1000 years we'd still need children because after that 1000 years that'd be no more humans. I don't even know how this was a statement someone made.

Anyway, I don't get why you're so obsessed with the natural thing when sex for pleasure is found in a very small amount of species anyway. I just...can't get a grasp on what you're trying to say or what you think is natural or what it means to you.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Yeah, well we were seen as jokes too. Until like people peter theil showed the world that we can be just as as powerful as the rest of the superior straight people. 

 

We were regarded as jokes till we showed that our kids don't end up any worse than kids of straight couples (except for maybe an ingrained need for PC culture, but that's vanishing and fast).

 

We were jokes till we fought for equality, not superiority. We wanted the same tax breaks straight people get, and the spousal rights. (Pretty much the gist of Windsor and Obergefell)

 

See the difference? We proved ourself first, then demanded equality. Trans people are demanding concessions with nothing to show for it. That's why tolerance for homosexuality has skyrocketed and not done so for Trans rights

There are still problems to fix that we can be attacked upon, like domestic abuse among lesbian women, but we didn't get to where we are today by putting demands up front. The world doesn't work that way. Prove yourself

Okay I can't help myself. Even if the average human lived 1000 years we'd still need children because after that 1000 years that'd be no more humans. I don't even know how this was a statement someone made.

Anyway, I don't get why you're so obsessed with the natural thing when sex for pleasure is found in a very small amount of species anyway. I just...can't get a grasp on what you're trying to say or what you think is natural or what it means to you.

Fine, it's less of a prerogative than it was 50 years back. Quality of life (pleasure) is more important that quantity of life (kids) atm

 

I mean, at the end of the day, LGB has proved its merit, trans has not

[Sunshine Jesse]

Yeah, well we were seen as jokes too. Until like people peter theil showed the world that we can be just as as powerful as the rest of the superior straight people. 

 

We were regarded as jokes till we showed that our kids don't end up any worse than kids of straight couples (except for maybe an ingrained need for PC culture, but that's vanishing and fast).

 

We were jokes till we fought for equality, not superiority. We wanted the same tax breaks straight people get, and the spousal rights. (Pretty much the gist of Windsor and Obergefell)

 

See the difference? We proved ourself first, then demanded equality. Trans people are demanding concessions with nothing to show for it. That's why tolerance for homosexuality has skyrocketed and not done so for Trans rights

...what? What the funk?

 

What do we need to prove? Where are you getting this from? Is your opinion of transpeople formed from nothing other than what you see on Tumblr? Or rather, what other people tell you they see on Tumblr, as-is the case a vast majority of the time?

 

We just want the same treatment, too! What the funk do you think we want?

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Are you seriously suggesting that they need to instantly prove themselves? Why do you think there's trans rights movements going on? Like, you're basically saying "I see you're doing things, but, you need to do things before I will accept you doing things"

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Are you seriously suggesting that they need to instantly prove themselves? Why do you think there's trans rights movements going on? Like, you're basically saying "I see you're doing things, but, you need to do things before I will accept you doing things"

Sure, now we're getting places. For one it's not entirely certain that reassignment actually cleans up the depression.

 

Took a while for LGB to show that they raise kids the same, till we got the right to adopt. So show that reassignment dramatically changes you as a person and more people will gladly support it.

 

Nobody enjoys the constant dissatisfaction and misery from the trans community :/

 

But that's not an excuse to just heap demands on them till they show us it works

[vla1ne]

Sure, now we're getting places. For one it's not entirely certain that reassignment actually cleans up the depression.

 

Took a while for LGB to show that they raise kids the same, till we got the right to adopt. So show that reassignment dramatically changes you as a person and more people will gladly support it.

 

Nobody enjoys the constant dissatisfaction and misery from the trans community :/

 

But that's not an excuse to just heap demands on them till they show us it works

that's also not an excuse to discriminate. basic human treatment's not too much to ask by any means. and if that's all anybody's asking for, then regardless of mental state, there shouldn't be any discrimination until they show they don't deserve human decency.

 

sure, they haven't done much to prove they're just like everybody else, but at the same time, outside of gender preference, on what basis would you say they aren't like everybody else?

[Sunshine Jesse]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_therapy#Effectiveness

 

here ya go

 

Here's about 10 seconds worth of google searching.

 

What else do we need to prove? Where exactly do your goalposts stand? Or will you keep moving them whenever we show you that we're just as good as you?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

that's also not an excuse to discriminate. basic human treatment's not too much to ask by any means. and if that's all anybody's asking for, then regardless of mental state, there shouldn't be any discrimination until they show they don't deserve human decency.

Well I'm not suggesting we all form lynch mobs and go after Trans people. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't be compassionate towards them. I'm saying putting tampons in men's bathrooms is might be toeing the line on what "basic human decency" is. 

 

What really irks me is we're all butting heads over things that aren't even actual solutions. We're just circle-jerking over illusions 

 

Outrage over someone using the wrong pronoun in an ambiguous case isn't infringement on common decency. And I hate to bring this up, but there is concerns over stuff like the MN incident (though the bathroom thing is really kinda overblown on both sides, if you look like a dude, use the dudes room, if you look like a girl, use the girls room, and if you have a skirt and neckbeard, hold it till you get home)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_therapy#Effectiveness

 

here ya go

 

Here's about 10 seconds worth of google searching.

 

What else do we need to prove? Where exactly do your goalposts stand? Or will you keep moving them whenever we show you that we're just as good as you?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_therapy#Effectiveness

 

here ya go

 

Here's about 10 seconds worth of google searching.

 

What else do we need to prove? Where exactly do your goalposts stand? Or will you keep moving them whenever we show you that we're just as good as you?

Pooling across studies shows that after sex reassignment, 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria (95% CI = 68–89%; 8 studies; I2 = 82%); 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms (95% CI = 56–94%; 7 studies; I2 = 86%); 80% reported significant improvement in quality of life (95% CI = 72–88%; 16 studies; I2 = 78%)

 

Congrats, we're at a C+/B- range

 

Hormone Therapy works with a 99% confidence interval? Excellent. Get on that then. The problem lies in that only 68% get HT, but 100% still demands rights. Where's the missing 32%

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Where's the missing 32%

Wishing HT was available to them, largely.

 

Not sure why you feel people need to go to any lengths at all to receive general decency.

[vla1ne]

those who want to be "fixed" can go for it, but some people are legit happier the way they are (without others discrimination of course) yeah, it's treatable, but unlike AIDS, not everybody would be happier with the cure, and not everybody would be healthier with a cure.