Transgender [Serious]

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf

 

Former Chief of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins Hospital and Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University Dr. Paul R. McHugh and Arizona State University professor of statistics and biostatistics Lawrence S. Mayer co-authored the report, which found that "gender identity" is not removed from biological sex. In other words, a man cannot be born in a woman's body, or vise-versa. 

 

"Examining research from the biological, psychological, and social sciences, this report shows that some of the most frequently heard claims about sexuality and gender are not supported by scientific evidence,” prefaced the report. 

“The hypothesis that gender identity is an innate, fixed property of human beings that is independent of biological sex — that a person might be ‘a man trapped in a woman’s body’ or ‘a woman trapped in a man’s body’ — is not supported by scientific evidence," stated the researchers. 

 

The researchers took particular issue with the transgender push on our youth, concluding that most children grow out of any gender confusion. McHugh and Mayer refuted the alleged benefits of delayed puberty therapies, hormone treatments or surgical modifications for children and cautioned against encouraging our youth to "become transgender."  

 

“Children are a special case when addressing transgender issues. Only a minority of children who experience cross-gender identification will continue to do so into adolescence or adulthood,” said the report. 

 

“There is little scientific evidence for the therapeutic value of interventions that delay puberty or modify the secondary sex characteristics of adolescents, although some children may have improved psychological well-being if they are encouraged and supported in their cross-gender identification," continued the researchers. "There is no evidence that all children who express gender-atypical thoughts or behavior should be encouraged to become transgender."

 

The report added: “An area of particular concern involves medical interventions for gender-nonconforming youth. They are increasingly receiving therapies that affirm their felt genders, and even hormone treatments or surgical modifications at young ages."

 

 

As the report goes on to state, many children are victimized by the transgender movement, often regretting their advised decision to "become transgender," left with irreversible damage and lifelong physical and emotional damage: "[T]he majority of children who identify as a gender that does not conform to their biological sex will no longer do so by the time they reach adulthood. We are disturbed and alarmed by the severity and irreversibility of some interventions being publicly discussed and employed for children.”

 

“One might expect that those who claim that sexual identity has no biological or physical basis would bring forth more evidence to persuade others,” stated McHugh. “But as I’ve learned, there is a deep prejudice in favor of the idea that nature is totally malleable.”

 

I would like to preface before the stream of accusations of bigotry or Transphobia that the above are not my opinion

 

 

When the scientific community validated Homosexuality and Bisexuality there was a (rightful) uproar of approval from society. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to this

[Catman25]

I've never heard of anyone, especially children, being "advised to 'become transgender'". Regardless of if there's familial support or not, I think most people are told to be absolutely certain that this is how they want to move forward. I know that's hard for a child (or adult) to ascertain, but I assume that's the reason for such stringent gateways to receiving hormonal and surgical intervention.

 

I dunno about scientific evidence but the large amount of anecdotal evidence should count for something. I mean sure there are people who regret transitioning, but there're even more that will tell you it was the best decision of their life.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I've never heard of anyone, especially children, being "advised to 'become transgender'". Regardless of if there's familial support or not, I think most people are told to be absolutely certain that this is how they want to move forward. I know that's hard for a child (or adult) to ascertain, but I assume that's the reason for such stringent gateways to receiving hormonal and surgical intervention.

 

I dunno about scientific evidence but the large amount of anecdotal evidence should count for something. I mean sure there are people who regret transitioning, but there're even more that will tell you it was the best decision of their life.

One might argue that you're just validating a delusion then? At best case this would signify that Transgender is more a religion than a scientific phenomenon. Therefore merits protection under the 1st amendment.

 

More importantly, I think it's high time that T leaves LGB because they're two different movement 

[Dad]

One might argue that you're just validating a delusion then? At best case this would signify that Transgender is more a religion than a scientific phenomenon. Therefore merits protection under the 1st amendment.

 

More importantly, I think it's high time that T leaves LGB because they're two different movement 

 

I thought the movement was about sexuality and freedom?  Or is it because transgender persons choose their gender (so to speak) rather than being literally born gay for example?

[Catman25]

@winter: That's an interesting comparison if I've ever heard one.

 

But really, I'd imagine relevant scientific evidence would at least involve social and pyschiatirc assessments, which are very much anecdotal I'd think, barring stuff like brain chemistry.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I thought the movement was about sexuality and freedom?  Or is it because transgender persons choose their gender (so to speak) rather than being literally born gay for example?

Well a lot of movements are about freedom. Freedom of religion is a freedom?

 

And how does it have anything to do with sexuality? Sexuality is a person's sexual orientation or preference. That's not related to Trans. A person born male, could become female, and keep funking females. Or not.

@winter: That's an interesting comparison if I've ever heard one.

 

But really, I'd imagine relevant scientific evidence would at least involve social and pyschiatirc assessments, which are very much anecdotal I'd think, barring stuff like brain chemistry.

I mean it's quite simple. If we accept that there's not robust scientific backing for Trans. Then it's little more than a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.....which is the definition of a religion. 

 

Well maybe, but there's no real backing for it in biology, atleast not among mammals (some species can change genders to facilitate reproduction in times of evolutionary stress, but I think we can agree that's not the motive for the vast majority of Trans individuals)

 

At this point what does Trans have over people who want race conversions? LGB can point to millions of years of multiple species engaging in same sex activities. 

 

I don't want to throw the Trans under the bus, which is why I though 1A protection would be the most honest way to give them security 

[Dad]

Well a lot of movements are about freedom. Freedom of religion is a freedom?

 

Should've clarified.  I meant freedom of sexuality.  Or as in the freedom to not be ashamed of being a gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgender individual.  I can't say I know what it's about because I am not apart of the LGBT community.

 

 

And how does it have anything to do with sexuality? Sexuality is a person's sexual orientation or preference. That's not related to Trans. A person born male, could become female, and keep funking females. Or not.

 

I mean, I know gay guys who are banging females, but that doesn't suddenly not make them gay.  And isn't being a transgender person a preference once you transform your gender?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Should've clarified.  I meant freedom of sexuality.  Or as in the freedom to not be ashamed of being a gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgender individual.  I can't say I know what it's about because I am not apart of the LGBT community.

 

 

 

I mean, I know gay guys who are banging females, but that doesn't suddenly not make them gay.  And isn't being a transgender person a preference once you transform your gender?

That makes them bi

 

But Trans isn't sexuality? That's the whole problem. It can be a freedom movement sure, but it doesn't belong in LGBT

 

If trans was equivalent to homosexuality, in that you're born x, change to y, and feel attracted to x, then sure. But no such relationship is mandatory. And apparently it's not scientific anymore. So just call it a religion and be done with it. Hell you'd get better protection that way 

[Dad]

That makes them bi

 

But Trans isn't sexuality? That's the whole problem. It can be a freedom movement sure, but it doesn't belong in LGBT

 

If trans was equivalent to homosexuality, in that you're born x, change to y, and feel attracted to x, then sure. But no such relationship is mandatory. And apparently it's not scientific anymore. So just call it a religion and be done with it. Hell you'd get better protection that way 

 

Having sex with a female doesn't make you bi as far as I know.  For context, she asked, he complied per "trying it out".  So how does that work?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Having sex with a female doesn't make you bi as far as I know. For context, she asked, he complied per "trying it out". So how does that work?

Depends. Did he like it? Would he do it again? By that logic I'm a gay guy who fucks girls

[Dad]

Depends. Did he like it? Would he do it again? By that logic I'm a gay guy who fucks girls

 

No, he told me he couldn't finish.  But she felt better so he was okay with that.  Dunno if he would do it again.  We only met about two weeks ago.

[vla1ne]

in canada and europe, there have been movements to teach children that they can/could be any gender they felt like growing up, and there's been more than a few movements to promote blurred lines between the sexes as well over the past few years.

 

i've got nothing against trans, but i don't think it was something that was on the same level as homosexual tendencies. it is definitely a thing imo, but it's not the same thing as LGB. don't personally care if it stays attached, it's been there long enough that removing it would cause more hassle than good. the rest can stay off the list, but the T is close enough.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

Well this is Europe, and what people are actively trying to make America into.

 

LGB is losing validity since we're giving every special snowflake a gold sticker

 

My great-grandfather had delusions about himself towards the end. We didn't let him think he was a reincarnated monkey, we took him to a hospital and gave him lithium. And he lived out the rest of his life peacefully. 

 

You're seeing the slippery slope in action sadly

[Sunshine Jesse]

I'm about a month late on this but,

If trans was equivalent to homosexuality, in that you're born x, change to y, and feel attracted to x, then sure. But no such relationship is mandatory. And apparently it's not scientific anymore. So just call it a religion and be done with it. Hell you'd get better protection that way 

"Accept yourself as something you're not and your life will be easier" is exactly the same anti-trans rhetoric that causes most of us to be so miserable in the first place. Trans people need to be protected because they're trans, not because they may fall under a wishy-washy categorization that's entirely determined by the people in power at the time.

 

 

And apparently it's not scientific anymore.

 

The article in the OP is written by a notoriously anti-LGBT doctor and is not peer-reviewed.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/08/23/the-new-atlantis-study-on-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-thats-not-a-study/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/23/the-right-s-favorite-anti-lgbt-doctor-strikes-again.html

 

I'm not going to let you get away with "it's not my opinion", "it's just about the children", or "it's just for the sake of a debate" when you're spreading false information backed by bigotry and hate.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I'm about a month late on this but,

"Accept yourself as something you're not and your life will be easier" is exactly the same anti-trans rhetoric that causes most of us to be so miserable in the first place. Trans people need to be protected because they're trans, not because they may fall under a wishy-washy categorization that's entirely determined by the people in power at the time.

 

 

 

The article in the OP is written by a notoriously anti-LGBT doctor and is not peer-reviewed.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/08/23/the-new-atlantis-study-on-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-thats-not-a-study/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/23/the-right-s-favorite-anti-lgbt-doctor-strikes-again.html

 

I'm not going to let you get away with "it's not my opinion", "it's just about the children", or "it's just for the sake of a debate" when you're spreading false information backed by bigotry and hate.

 

Well that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying considering it a religion would likely get your better protection from the law, which I gather is what you want correct?

 

But thank you for bring to attention the flaws in the Dr.'s analysis. That's unacceptable and not what I was trying to get at. 

 

But if you do claim it has scientific backing (as I pointed out to elly, there's it fails the nature test as far as we know now), then can you explain why even the TQ community cannot come to consensus on what the cause is?

 

 

More fundamentally, there is no consensus on the etiology of the diverse expressions of “gender identity variants.”

 

Some TQ advocates theorize that nonconforming sexuality is caused by certain family dynamics in the context of a bi-gendered patriarchal society. Others postulate that unidentified genetically based sex-hormone abnormalities cause transgenderism or homosexuality, even when there are no abnormalities of the reproductive anatomy. Evidence-based conclusions are utterly lacking, whatever the claims of activists. Without clear distinctions not only among categories of the potentially mentally disordered but also between the mentally disordered and the normal population, how are diagnosis and treatment decisions to be made?

 

You guys need to get your story straight before throwing our accusations on the rest of us. 

 

I 100% agree you need to hold my foot to the fire on this regard, but you need to deliver too beyond anecdotes. Up till the controversial DSM5 it was characterized as a mental disorder and the verdict is still out on that regards. 

 

So if the Brain and the Body is not in sync, how do you logically get to the idea that the brain is the correct and the body is not? There are numerous difference between a trans and cis brain (atleast among Males, it gets shady w/ F->M)

 

Certain brain areas are not stimulated as prominently and tissue can be thing in areas. So again, how do you logically deduce the body is at fault rather than the brain?

 

You might also wanna check your definition of bigot, you're using it wrong

 

How do you go from "we have a problem" to "the problem is with our body" to "superficially dressing up the body fixes the problem"

 

There's a pretty big gap between the first two, and a invalidating jump between the middle and last steps

 

But idk why I was being so careful, it's absolutely my opinion that Transsexualism has not stood the test of validity that LGB has. I noticed you cited the AMA in your two links there, the AMA affirms that treatment does decrease the rate of depression among patients, but nowhere does it tell why treating the body is better than treating the mind.

 

So again, explain the logical steps you took to get from point a to b to c

[Sunshine Jesse]

So again, how do you logically deduce the body is at fault rather than the brain?

I'll cover the rest of it at some point in the future but this bears clearing up.

 

The brain is at fault, and the only known effective treatment is transition. Right now, the only thing that can actually be fixed is the body. It's not that it's better, it's that it's all we know right now, and it's proven to work on some level.

 

If I had a magic button I could press to link up my gender identity with my biological sex, I would, whether the result was male or female. I'm sure a lot of trans people (but not all of them) would feel the same. I absolutely blame my brain for feeling this and not my body for coming out 'wrong.'

 

Alternatives should absolutely be researched, but not imposed on people.

 

(I'm not bringing childhood transition into this at all, where my views are slightly different)

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I'll cover the rest of it at some point in the future but this bears clearing up.

 

The brain is at fault, and the only known effective treatment is transition. Right now, the only thing that can actually be fixed is the body. It's not that it's better, it's that it's all we know right now, and it's proven to work on some level.

 

If I had a magic button I could press to link up my gender identity with my biological sex, I would, whether the result was male or female. I'm sure a lot of trans people (but not all of them) would feel the same. I absolutely blame my brain for feeling this and not my body for coming out 'wrong.'

 

Alternatives should absolutely be researched, but not imposed on people.

 

(I'm not bringing childhood transition into this at all, where my views are slightly different)

See, most people won't say that. The common play is, "there's nothing wrong" "everything is fine" "this isn't something that should be looked into" "HATE SPEECH"

 

It's the same damn problem with abortion, instead of both sides pouring lobby money into cock blocking the other, the rational thing to do would be to investigate how to make ectogenesis more viable. 

 

Similarly, trans people need to focus on demanding that the scientific community focus on research, and put pressure on politicians to back that. Nobody wants this problem to go on, except for politicians who can milk votes off it. 

 

By lapsing into a false sense of satisfaction with something as superficial as a wardrobe change or getting giddy about tampons in the men's room, the trans community is doing itself the biggest disservice it can. 

 

Now you might point to slippery slope, and say after they "fix" us, they're come after LGB. Well not quite, its been shown in nature that LGB does exist among higher order mammals with no real threat to their life (unlike the suicide and depression rates with trans people). So normalizing straightness isn't really a thing, because homosexuality isn't abnormal

 

But I would go a step further and say, if people want to change their sexuality and a humane method exists for that, it should be their right

 

What the LGBT movement of today would say after reading the above, is that I'm promoting hate-speech, instead of realizing that I'm trying to ask for a resolution to a problem no one enjoys. I don't enjoy it any more than you guys when a trans guy or gal kills them-self because of no hope, but I don't think the solution to that should be acceptance of a half-way solution

[Sunshine Jesse]

See, most people won't say that. The common play is, "there's nothing wrong" "everything is fine" "this isn't something that should be looked into" "HATE SPEECH"

 

It's the same damn problem with abortion, instead of both sides pouring lobby money into cock blocking the other, the rational thing to do would be to investigate how to make ectogenesis more viable. 

http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/356168-transgender-serious/?do=findComment&comment=6930807

Similarly, trans people need to focus on demanding that the scientific community focus on research, and put pressure on politicians to back that. Nobody wants this problem to go on, except for politicians who can milk votes off it. 

 

By lapsing into a false sense of satisfaction with something as superficial as a wardrobe change or getting giddy about tampons in the men's room, the trans community is doing itself the biggest disservice it can. 

 

Now you might point to slippery slope, and say after they "fix" us, they're come after LGB. Well not quite, its been shown in nature that LGB does exist among higher order mammals with no real threat to their life (unlike the suicide and depression rates with trans people). So normalizing straightness isn't really a thing, because homosexuality isn't abnormal

 

But I would go a step further and say, if people want to change their sexuality and a humane method exists for that, it should be their right

 

What the LGBT movement of today would say after reading the above, is that I'm promoting hate-speech, instead of realizing that I'm trying to ask for a resolution to a problem no one enjoys. I don't enjoy it any more than you guys when a trans guy or gal kills them-self because of no hope, but I don't think the solution to that should be acceptance of a half-way solution

There'd be no reason to call you a bigot if being trans was socially acceptable.

 

The problem is that, because it's not, there's a very real risk that these alternative solutions will be imposed on people they simply won't work for. It's similar to why people will call you a racist if you support voter ID laws; while not being directly related, what you (not you yourself, the abstract person that supports these laws) support has been historically used for voter disenfranchisement due to race. If research is put into these alternative methods of "fixing" transsexuality, the risk of people not getting the help they actually need becomes even more prevalent, as they could have a solution not involving transition slapped on them and have immense pressure applied to accept it and leave it as-is when it doesn't truly work. This effect has been witnessed in conversion therapy and "praying the gay away", which doesn't truly fix the problem but people are forced to accept that it does (among dozens of other issues with said therapy).

 

This bears a tenuous connection to the movement towards autism being considered normal for a few reasons. There are very real parallels between how brain chemicals work in transgendered and autistic people*; no amount of therapy or medication can fix these, only alleviate the symptoms associated with them. Mind, autism is certainly more debilitating, but that's not the point. The point is that the movement to normalize them is not because they're actually normal, but is actually because they cannot yet be fixed, and there exist no solutions to these problems in the forseeable future. Even full transition doesn't affect someone's biological makeup- chromosomes are chromosomes. In turn, fully adapting an autistic person into society doesn't fix the fact that they're autistic.

 

For another parallel, sometimes people are too autistic to be adapted into society and must always be cared for in order to live. In transsexuality, this translates to people who will never be happy no matter how much they transition because they are so dysphoric that their biological sex will never link up with their gender unless they change what cannot yet be changed.

 

Autism is slightly different because it can actually provide some positive benefits, whereas transsexuality is pretty much a net negative towards one's quality of life no matter how they cope, but the fact of the matter is that there's no true solution to either of these problems, nor will there be one in the forseeable future based on what we know about biology. There's only coping, and minimizing the symptoms to the point where they matter as little as they possibly can.

 

A lot of the time, when people call you bigoted (I was calling your source bigoted, not you, as an aside), it's not because you actually are, it's out of fear that what you want will be used by these bigoted people to make their lives even worse. Your own personal intent doesn't matter. What matters is how other people will use it, so to them, you're a bigot by association. I don't hold that train of thought, I'm just explaining the mindset behind people that do.

 

Am I getting myself across well enough? Do I need to elaborate on any of my points?

 

*sources:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395610001585#sec2.1

....and many more!

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

There'd be no reason to call you a bigot if being trans was socially acceptable.

 

The problem is that, because it's not, there's a very real risk that these alternative solutions will be imposed on people they simply won't work for. It's similar to why people will call you a racist if you support voter ID laws; while not being directly related, what you (not you yourself, the abstract person that supports these laws) support has been historically used for voter disenfranchisement due to race. If research is put into these alternative methods of "fixing" transsexuality, the risk of people not getting the help they actually need becomes even more prevalent, as they could have a solution not involving transition slapped on them and have immense pressure applied to accept it and leave it as-is when it doesn't truly work. This effect has been witnessed in conversion therapy and "praying the gay away", which doesn't truly fix the problem but people are forced to accept that it does (among dozens of other issues with said therapy).

 

This bears a tenuous connection to the movement towards autism being considered normal for a few reasons. There are very real parallels between how brain chemicals work in transgendered and autistic people*; no amount of therapy or medication can fix these, only alleviate the symptoms associated with them. Mind, autism is certainly more debilitating, but that's not the point. The point is that the movement to normalize them is not because they're actually normal, but is actually because they cannot yet be fixed, and there exist no solutions to these problems in the forseeable future. Even full transition doesn't affect someone's biological makeup- chromosomes are chromosomes. In turn, fully adapting an autistic person into society doesn't fix the fact that they're autistic.

 

For another parallel, sometimes people are too autistic to be adapted into society and must always be cared for in order to live. In transsexuality, this translates to people who will never be happy no matter how much they transition because they are so dysphoric that their biological sex will never link up with their gender unless they change what cannot yet be changed.

 

Autism is slightly different because it can actually provide some positive benefits, whereas transsexuality is pretty much a net negative towards one's quality of life no matter how they cope, but the fact of the matter is that there's no true solution to either of these problems, nor will there be one in the forseeable future based on what we know about biology. There's only coping, and minimizing the symptoms to the point where they matter as little as they possibly can.

 

A lot of the time, when people call you bigoted (I was calling your source bigoted, not you, as an aside), it's not because you actually are, it's out of fear that what you want will be used by these bigoted people to make their lives even worse. Your own personal intent doesn't matter. What matters is how other people will use it, so to them, you're a bigot by association. I don't hold that train of thought, I'm just explaining the mindset behind people that do.

 

Am I getting myself across well enough? Do I need to elaborate on any of my points?

 

*sources:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395610001585#sec2.1

....and many more!

Nope, nope (on elaboration), I don't think we're in disagreement.

 

"Conversion" therapy doesn't work (with LGB) for a couple reasons, Bisexuality is a common enough feature in advanced mammals. It can be something as minor as adoration of a more "fit" male (as in biological fitness, which would include the work outfitness, but isn't restricted to it). Or is can be a desire to engage in sexual activaties. It's hard to fix because it's natural enough (dolphins, chimps, etc) all do it.

 

Pure homosexuality doesn't really occur in nature, but neither does marriage, so you could just point out that we've evolved to take care of our young, and thus become ingrained to one partner. I still find it unlikely that there's not one female or one male that you might be attracted to regardless of your perceived sexuality based on statistics along. Bi life, best life imo

 

But the reason conversion therapy isn't working, is it has no scientific background. Randomly giving people electric shocks and hoping it would trigger the right neurons to incite a sexual attraction is like finding a needle in a haystack. God may not even exist. And forcing people to have heterosexual sex isn't productive, because forcing someone to do something they don't want is only going to make them more firm in their beliefs. 

 

The reason why I think there is hope for trans people to "fix" themselves is like you noted in the your article, there are differences we can find between cis and trans people like a loss of gray matter in certain areas. Investigating the areas of difference can help us pinpoint the cause of the problem.

 

Like for an example, if the loss of gray matter is the problem, and the trans brain can't stimulate it as much as the cis brain, there might be a treatment possible where a device can constantly stimulate the area. There's similar treatment for stroke patients who lose portions of their brain. There is a humane solution to most problems if only we're willing to look for it. Both sides are too vested in ripping the other to care is my issue

 

At that point a scientific approach based on results instead of bullshit trial and error might finally fix the problem for everyone. Growing content with crossdressing or tampons in bathrooms is counterproductive when instead of sticking ones head in the ground and saying nothing is wrong, you should be pressing for funds to the medical society to investigate on the matter. Don't take the cheaper and less satisfying out

 

I'm not sure I agree with the bigoted logic though, if someone bastardizes what I say and contorts it, is it really my fault? Bigotry is the inability to accept your opinions or views, and that's certainly not me. I can see why people want to go with the body transformation method, it's "something" better than what you had. But it's not a real solution, and I dislike people giving up on it.

[Sunshine Jesse]

And forcing people to have heterosexual sex isn't productive, because forcing someone to do something they don't want is only going to make them more firm in their beliefs.

 

This is exactly why some people in the trans movement seem so crazy. They've been legitimately prosecuted for so long that, when given an inch, they have no choice but to take a mile. As harmful as some of their beliefs are, transsexuality has to be accepted as a whole for these fringe beliefs to actually go away. It sucks that these fringe beliefs actually hurt people, but someone has to swallow their pride along the way, and for there to be true acceptance, it has to be the people with actual rights.

 

"People like this discredit the whole movement" is easily among the most cancerous mindsets to have when it comes to actual social progress.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the bigoted logic though, if someone bastardizes what I say and contorts it, is it really my fault? Bigotry is the inability to accept your opinions or views, and that's certainly not me. I can see why people want to go with the body transformation method, it's "something" better than what you had. But it's not a real solution, and I dislike people giving up on it.

 

It's not your fault. I'm just explaining how people are. While it's easier to just stop saying something than it is to stop being offended by it, considering someone a bigot by proxy is taking it way too far.

[Lunar Origins]

*cracks knuckles*

 

alright shitlords get ready for a kate rant

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

funk it im too old for this sheet

 

i'm just gonna put this out there: kids, don't be trans.  try everything you can to be comfortable with who you are before before making rash, retarded decisions.  only, and ONLY as a last resort should you ever consider transitioning

 

there is a reason i internally shake my head in disappointment when someone comes to me admitting that they're transgender.  it funking sucks and no one should have to deal with this.

[vla1ne]

 

 

alright shitlords get ready for a kate rant

 

f*** it im too old for this s***

 

i'm just gonna put this out there: kids, don't be trans.  try everything you can to be comfortable with who you are before before making rash, retarded decisions.  only, and ONLY as a last resort should you ever consider transitioning

 

there is a reason i internally shake my head in disappointment when someone comes to me admitting that they're transgender.  it f***ing sucks and no one should have to deal with this.

ever had a ton of thoughts in your head, all forming a coherent point, but no words you knew could properly describe said point? that's me in response to this. respect for the honesty, but i have to object to the end point ever so slightly. not saying it sucks, or that it's glorious, i wouldn't know, but i can't find it in me to agree that it's such a negative. to me, it feels more as if it's only a negative/sucks because people don't want to accept it. and that on it's own is fine, to each their own. a better takeaway imo would be that persecuting others over it, or shoving it into another's face, should simply be avoided. 

 

ugh, this is nothing like the point i'm trying to make, but i felt i had to put at least something out there in response. respect for the opinion, and i agree to an extent, as far as my knowledge on the subject goes, but i can't help but think it's not the right conclusion overall.

[Lunar Origins]

the only reason it does suck is because other people aren't willing to accept it, and if people find out (accepting or non-accepting) it tends to become your entire identity which is a huge funking bother

 

well, i lied, that's not the only reason it sucks, but that's why it sucks for me.

 

not that i'm unhappy tho, i'm probably the most stable and joyous i've been in my whole life

[Mr420QuickScopes]

I have to say after reading all this, I don't want to discredit anybody's opinions so I'm just gonna give my 2 cents and be brutally honest i guess. (I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right)

Reading the OP i have to say, there was quite a few statements that i did feel i agreed with. Especially the parts about the majority of children growing out of it. I have a good friend (gay) who as a child, dressed as a girl and basically identified as one, now he's one of the happiest people I know and i can assure you it would not be that way if his parents had got him to change his gender when they saw him acting like a girl. It's a thing that requires a mature mind to decide, it should in no way be decided by the parents or anyone else but the individual. And it shouldn't be done at an age where the mind isn't properly developed, and when I say that, I feel that, that only comes to term after the High School periods, where the person is able to make life changing choices with the understanding of consequences. And the reason it's becoming more and more prominent these days is because kids are being exposed to it more and more. They see it on TV, in songs, in shops, on the side of busses, on the news and everywhere its all saying "It's okay to be trans know who you are" and things like that (and I'm not saying it isn't okay, its just that the bombardment of this into the young mind of a child moulds it in that direction) So instead of the kid making their own choice, society basically made the choice for them by using subtle influences over an extended period of time.

 

I didn't post this for argumentative purposes, just so my opinion is out there also. Don't acknowledge it if you don't like it. (Don't slam me as a hater please because I'm not.)

[vla1ne]

not that i'm unhappy tho, i'm probably the most stable and joyous i've been in my whole life

if it's the most joyous and stable you've been, then wouldn't the better advice be "make sure (as best you can) that you won't regret your decision"? it isn't for everybody, and many do grow out of, or otherwise settle with themselves, so advising people that it sucks is sort of the wrong thing to give as advice is it not? i mean, again, never been and don't know any, but from your own testimony, and others on this site, it's not that it's a bad thing, it's just that it's a big decision.

 

many people are bastards, or otherwise obtuse in regards to the subject. but that comes with most territories. not everybody's gonna accept said lifestyle, and while you (or those of pretty much any other lifestyle) have a right to basic human decency and a degree of respect, it's not mandatory for others to actually be accepting of it, or quiet about said non-acceptance. so yeah, it definitely would suck in that regard, but at the same time, if it's the way you choose, then the advice shouldn't be "don't do it" but "make sure you have no (or as few) regrets (as possible)"

 

damn, this is a subject i'm not too intimate with, so i'm not sure if that makes much sense, but i think it's close enough to my thoughts atm.