The Patriot Act

[Aerion Brightflame]

Title is a little misleading but bear with me:

 

Yesterday Congress attempted to make an amendment to the patriot act (An act called Anti-Terrorism Information Sharing is Strength which is a funking terrifying name) that sought to massively expand the scale of it:

 

by striking ‘‘terrorist or money laun- dering activities’’ and inserting ‘‘terrorist acts, money laundering activities, or a specified un- lawful activity

 

That's the amendment that was planned I believe. The list of things that the new wording would cover is gigantic and covered in here (Point 7 so scroll down a bit) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1956

 

Some stuff among this list include copyright infringement and falsifying federal funds, including FASFA funds. So that's arguably a justification to spy on anyone they want, because they simply need suspicion to do it.  But for stuff that requires less speculation on my part it basically bypasses the constitution on any crime you could think. Which is a bad trend, and not far away from an Orwelian Society. 

 

Now, the good news is that this didn't pass. The bad news is... well it had a majority, just not the two-thirds majority required. So I'd keep an eye out about that. Because it will come back, again and again and again till it passes. 

 

Discuss this change, and discuss the Patriot act in general. Is it good, is it bad? Is it justified given the lack of actual terrorism on US soil statistically speaking? 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's a shame this didn't pass. If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. The Feds aren't interested in your nudes.

[Aerion Brightflame]

It's a shame this didn't pass. If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. The Feds aren't interested in your nudes.

 

That's a bad attitude towards it. 

 

The point isn't the implications towards this as a criminal measure, it's it's implications towards your civil rights. It's a step towards totalitarianism. 

 

If it was passed, the government would essentially have the legal right to investigate anyone in the country with almost no justification. They could tap your phone, monitor your communications, have you followed, with little to no evidence required of any crime. What do you think can be done with that information?

 

It's used to control society and control voters - Identify and discredit dissenting voices as they emerge. Discredit ideas, control information. The general hallmarks of an Orwellian society. 

 

Obviously that's not going to immediately happen upon passing the bill - But it's a trend towards shutting down your liberties and constitutional rights in an entirely legal fashion without a pretence justifying it. That should be ringing alarm bells. 

 

EDIT: If it's intentions really are pure, it needs to be a far far more clearly worded amendment than this. 

[Progenitor]

Sweeping Generalizations should NEVER, EVER be made into law Winter. That's just ASKING to be abused. Just look at what we've done to the 2nd amendment.

 

Why do you think business contracts are hundreds of pages for big projects? Every minute detail needs to be laid out; any ambiguity will only lead to confrontation.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

That's a bad attitude towards it. 

 

The point isn't the implications towards this as a criminal measure, it's it's implications towards your civil rights. It's a step towards totalitarianism. 

 

If it was passed, the government would essentially have the legal right to investigate anyone in the country with almost no justification. They could tap your phone, monitor your communications, have you followed, with little to no evidence required of any crime. What do you think can be done with that information?

 

It's used to control society and control voters - Identify and discredit dissenting voices as they emerge. Discredit ideas, control information. The general hallmarks of an Orwellian society. 

 

Obviously that's not going to immediately happen upon passing the bill - But it's a trend towards shutting down your liberties and constitutional rights in an entirely legal fashion without a pretence justifying it. That should be ringing alarm bells. 

 

EDIT: If it's intentions really are pure, it needs to be a far far more clearly worded amendment than this. 

What can be done with that information? Well, I guess they'll know I go swim for about a hour in the morning. Take my little brother to his lessons, study for the MCAT a couple hours a day, they might find out whom I kinda like atm, they might find out that my father is an ass, and that my sister and I are really close

 

Anybody that actually bothered to have a conversation with me might find out that much. The US government is of the people and by the people. Something the doesn't mesh well with an Orwellian vision. 

 

I'm honestly perfectly fine with monitored, if monitoring me and everyone else will help stop the next Orlando, my nudes and such aren't worth more than a life.

 

The fact that the government made up of people like me assessing for threats, is FAR less troubling than the advent of actual the Orwellian control of PC

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

It's a shame this didn't pass. If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. The Feds aren't interested in your nudes.

 

You'd be surprised at the things they pause at!

[vla1ne]

What can be done with that information? Well, I guess they'll know I go swim for about a hour in the morning. Take my little brother to his lessons, study for the MCAT a couple hours a day, they might find out whom I kinda like atm, they might find out that my father is an ass, and that my sister and I are really close

 

Anybody that actually bothered to have a conversation with me might find out that much. The US government is of the people and by the people. Something the doesn't mesh well with an Orwellian vision. 

 

I'm honestly perfectly fine with monitored, if monitoring me and everyone else will help stop the next Orlando, my nudes and such aren't worth more than a life.

 

The fact that the government made up of people like me assessing for threats, is FAR less troubling than the advent of actual the Orwellian control of PC

that's a lot more detailed than:

 

It's a shame this didn't pass. If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. The Feds aren't interested in your nudes.

 

 

but that falls under what progenitor said does it not?

 

Sweeping Generalizations should NEVER, EVER be made into law Winter. That's just ASKING to be abused. Just look at what we've done to the 2nd amendment.

 

Why do you think business contracts are hundreds of pages for big projects? Every minute detail needs to be laid out; any ambiguity will only lead to confrontation.

 

it's a similar issue. you don't want people looking through your daily life on a whim do you? i have nothing to hide sure, but at the same time, i don't want people looking through my things. the government might be made up of normal citizens, but that's why it's worrying. normal people make mistakes, they aren't flawless beings, so why would i assume that they always have my best interests at heart? yes, more often than not, but not always.

 

the government does not currently have the right to spy on a whim, and i am not willing to let them attain such a right simple because i have nothing illegal to hide. look at history mate. this kind of law can bite citizens in the ass, and has done so more than enough times. not that it would, but i'm not about to put it on the books. especially since monitoring is not only not guaranteed to solve the problem, but would grant fed the right to go through any of my info, at any time. not something they need the right to do. if they have suspicions, they already have what they need to solve the problem, anything more and they will have far more power than they need, or you want then to have.

[Delibirb]

I am in full support of proposed amendments like this. Not because I've nothing to hide, but because that's irrelevant when we want to foster safety as a civilization.

[Aerion Brightflame]

What safety are you looking to embrace here?

 

Because it's not against terrorism, you're more likely to die of a car crash than die to terrorism in the US (And the existing act already allows for all the unconstitutional spying that is desired). If it's from domestic well I don't why need to give the government the right to spy on everyone with no justification to spot what is mostly spontaneous crime I imagine. Organised crime sure, the power extension is useful but the clause itself was far too loose to allow that to be the intention. 

 

The thing I find most amusing is that from what I've seen is there's this massive culture fighting to the death to protect your second amendment rights but hardly any equivilant exists to protect your 4th ammendment rights from this things. Whilst the specific wording of the 4th is about search and seizure, the intention of the law is about privacy. So I don't why you should be so keen to sell privacy for the sake of, what is to me, unnecessary security. 

 

I'm a fairly trusting person when it comes to government - But I would never be happy to trust any government with this much information. At that point it's not about security, it's about manipulation for policies sake. And that's terrifying - A step on the road towards totalitarianism. 

[Delibirb]

It's not that I am blindly trusting of the parties that I want to hand the keys to mass surveillance to, it's that I put more trust in the idea that over time, humanity will get to a position where "privacy" and "politics" are mere trivia in a world that is not necessarily perfect, but ideal and optimal and efficient. Preferably one with more logic and free experimental thought than bickering over events that could have been prevented given forethought and logic.

 

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that's what I'm counting on. And from the corruption, the incorruptible surveillance system will eventually be a medium of peace and collaboration.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I am extraordinarily apathetic. Can I get some people being uncomfortable with this much monitoring? Yes. But I don't particularly care personally, and don't think it'd really affect as much as gets implied.

[Delibirb]

I am extraordinarily apathetic. Can I get some people being uncomfortable with this much monitoring? Yes. But I don't particularly care personally, and don't think it'd really affect as much as gets implied.

I should specify I'm kinda apathetic as well. I'm in favor of more power to the Patriot Act, but I'm not going to actively advocate for it, just passively support it.