Debating Police Actions (f.t. Cops)

[Dad]

BLM is also the only ones to show up to the rest of these tragedies, so the point is moot. Cuz I haven't seen ALM ever.

 

Literally not even once. Take it to the other thread.

 

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NC is open carry. So why was he shot for having a gun?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

BLM is also the only ones to show up to the rest of these tragedies, so the point is moot. Cuz I haven't seen ALM ever.

 

Literally not even once. Take it to the other thread.

 

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NC is open carry. So why was he shot for having a gun?

I agree, ALM isn't the right critique. It's BLAM

[Dad]

Right. Cuz ALM don't matter until someone mentions BLM.

 

And the fact that poorly trained officers are getting into the field sooner is even worse.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Right. Cuz ALM don't matter until someone mentions BLM.

 

And the fact that poorly trained officers are getting into the field sooner is even worse.

ALM is common sense, most of us don't need to be told it's not ok to shoot someone for shits and giggles

[Dad]

Then why keep quiet when it matters most? Why keep quiet when we need you?

[vla1ne]

Then why keep quiet when it matters most? Why keep quiet when we need you?

because it's not a movement, it's (supposed to be) the norm. it's the response to BLM, not a movement in and of itself, a counter statement, like blue lives matter, or the flying spaghetti monster, it only ever would appear as a counterpoint because outside of that circumstance, saying all lives matter is supposed to be common sense, or just redundant.

 

with that out of the way, it's not a matter of BLM or ALM. you don't act like an animal (the rioters), you don't kill, and try not to unnecessarily harm those who aren't a clear and present threat (the police), and when you see a life taken by senseless violence, you discuss the life, not the color of the skin encasing it (BLM) there's quite a bit more to be said on this, but that would require moving over to the BLM thread. which we can do, but i'd prefer to discuss the actions, not the ideologies at the moment.

 

 

the actions of the rioters, are stupid. there's nothing more that should need to be said, common sense would dictate that you don't turn into an animal over something like this. and honestly, if every protester who jumped into this riot got shot, i really wouldn't see a reason to complain.

 

"Please do not hurt people or members of law enforcement, damage property or take things that do not belong to you in the name of protesting."

 

why? we get good advice from a grieving family, and nobody listens. we get the protesters, ramping things up till there's a state of emergency, cops do have reason to be nervous, people are looking for any reason to riot in places right now.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

because it's not a movement, it's (supposed to be) the norm. it's the response to BLM, not a movement in and of itself, a counter statement, like blue lives matter, or the flying spaghetti monster, it only ever would appear as a counterpoint because outside of that circumstance, saying all lives matter is supposed to be common sense, or just redundant.

 

with that out of the way, it's not a matter of BLM or ALM. you don't act like an animal (the rioters), you don't kill, and try not to unnecessarily harm those who aren't a clear and present threat (the police), and when you see a life taken by senseless violence, you discuss the life, not the color of the skin encasing it (BLM) there's quite a bit more to be said on this, but that would require moving over to the BLM thread. which we can do, but i'd prefer to discuss the actions, not the ideologies at the moment.

 

 

the actions of the rioters, are stupid. there's nothing more that should need to be said, common sense would dictate that you don't turn into an animal over something like this. and honestly, if every protester who jumped into this riot got shot, i really wouldn't see a reason to complain.

 

"Please do not hurt people or members of law enforcement, damage property or take things that do not belong to you in the name of protesting."

 

why? we get good advice from a grieving family, and nobody listens. we get the protesters, ramping things up till there's a state of emergency, cops do have reason to be nervous, people are looking for any reason to riot in places right now.

They stripped a white man naked and beat him in the middle of a park lot while others watched and laughed.

 

When people see this, they don't see "brutal" police, they don't see "white privilege" they see Black Anarchy.

 

If you want more people to think Black lives matter, this really isn't the way to go.

 

 

"protesting" Injustice

[Aerion Brightflame]

But how many times has there been peaceful protest? There has been peaceful protest in response to police brutality towards Blacks many, many times. But progress from it has seemed minimal - Yes, there is talk about de-escalation classes, and an increase in the use of tasers, but it seemingly hasn't helped. Look at the father of 4 who was shot here. If the officer was really that terrified that he was going to try something whilst his hands were up and he was against a car with 4 officers present, she had every opportunity to taser him instead of shoot him. 

 

Violent protesting might not achieve anything, but after years of this sort of treatment, and a lack of progress in actually addressing the issues you can understand why some people are just angry. Especially young black males. There is only so many times you can tell people 'Don't worry, I'm sure this won't happen again' and it being false before they lash out. 

 

Now of course the issues of the police being power abusing bastards stretches far beyond just the black community - Civil forfeture makes everyone suffer, you see video's like the one a couple of years ago of other young people being beaten and arrested for no issue. You see video clips like one from Minessotta a couple of days ago (I'll try and refined the link) showing state troopers very openly deciding on what random bullshit charge to give someone filming them for no reason other than pissing them off. 

 

The police, as an institution in the US is just corrupted what feels like too the core. They don't have to abide by the same laws as us, they have almost no accountability or oversight outside of someone they choose to abuse having political connections, and a lot of them run around acting like bullies busting heads. Hell I doubt that most of them can even do proper police work unless a case is literally handed to them on a silver platter. So much has to change, because the police just aren't fulfilling there own mantra of 'protect and serve' unless you are behind the 'thin blue line'

 

So essentially - Yes the people protesting violently are idiots. As are essentially all violent protesters. It's irrelevant. The issue remains with the police. sheet has to change. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

But how many times has there been peaceful protest? There has been peaceful protest in response to police brutality towards Blacks many, many times. But progress from it has seemed minimal - Yes, there is talk about de-escalation classes, and an increase in the use of tasers, but it seemingly hasn't helped. Look at the father of 4 who was shot here. If the officer was really that terrified that he was going to try something whilst his hands were up and he was against a car with 4 officers present, she had every opportunity to taser him instead of shoot him. 

 

Violent protesting might not achieve anything, but after years of this sort of treatment, and a lack of progress in actually addressing the issues you can understand why some people are just angry. Especially young black males. There is only so many times you can tell people 'Don't worry, I'm sure this won't happen again' and it being false before they lash out. 

 

Now of course the issues of the police being power abusing bastards stretches far beyond just the black community - Civil forfeture makes everyone suffer, you see video's like the one a couple of years ago of other young people being beaten and arrested for no issue. You see video clips like one from Minessotta a couple of days ago (I'll try and refined the link) showing state troopers very openly deciding on what random bullshit charge to give someone filming them for no reason other than pissing them off. 

 

The police, as an institution in the US is just corrupted what feels like too the core. They don't have to abide by the same laws as us, they have almost no accountability or oversight outside of someone they choose to abuse having political connections, and a lot of them run around acting like bullies busting heads. Hell I doubt that most of them can even do proper police work unless a case is literally handed to them on a silver platter. So much has to change, because the police just aren't fulfilling there own mantra of 'protect and serve' unless you are behind the 'thin blue line'

 

So essentially - Yes the people protesting violently are idiots. As are essentially all violent protesters. It's irrelevant. The issue remains with the police. sheet has to change. 

Uh...he was warned to drop the gun multiple times and he didn't

 

You seem a bit condensing there mate

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

A reminder to those who are saying that the police system is inherently corrupt/evil: it is important to remember that tragic events such as these, though indeed tragic and in need of remedy and preventative measure, are the outliers, rather than the standard. Yes, law enforcement agencies often do get away with less than moral actions, and arguably blatant crimes, going as far as murder. That said, sweeping statements regarding this really is a disservice to well over a million law enforcement workers (in the US alone) who really do uphold the standard to protect and serve.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Uh...he was warned to drop the gun multiple times and he didn't

 

You seem a bit condensing there mate

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/09/19/black-man-shot-by-tulsa-police-had-hands-in-the-air-says-pastor-who-reviewed-video-of-the-shooting/

 

What gun? You can see he has his hands raised, and he walks towards his car. He places his hands on the car, and then talks to the officers. At no point in either footage does it appear any officer is in any danger or in any situation that would require usage of a firearm. The guy was in fact tasered, and shot.

 

We have footage showing he was co-operating. We have the guy in the helicopter talk about how he's co-operating (And also saying 'He looks like a bad dude'). 

 

The female officer who fired the shot doesn't even appear to be new to the force, having been employed since 2011. And she still over-reacts and shoots this man dead, without any provocation. 

 

Either you are thinking of a different case to me, or you've not seen the footage. Either way, it does appear that this guy was killed for no justifiable reason. 

 

A reminder to those who are saying that the police system is inherently corrupt/evil: it is important to remember that tragic events such as these, though indeed tragic and in need of remedy and preventative measure, are the outliers, rather than the standard. Yes, law enforcement agencies often do get away with less than moral actions, and arguably blatant crimes, going as far as murder. That said, sweeping statements regarding this really is a disservice to well over a million law enforcement workers (in the US alone) who really do uphold the standard to protect and serve.

 

A bad Apple spoils the barrel. 

 

Officers would not get away with these sorts of criminal acts, nor would they think to do some of the abuses of power that they do unless there was a level of institutional corruption or turning a blind eye that allowed it to be so. If bad officers were punished, and fired for stupid actions like shooting unarmed nonthreatening men, or for stealing, or for making up bullshit charges, it would not happen nearly as frequently as it appears to. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/09/19/black-man-shot-by-tulsa-police-had-hands-in-the-air-says-pastor-who-reviewed-video-of-the-shooting/

 

What gun? You can see he has his hands raised, and he walks towards his car. He places his hands on the car, and then talks to the officers. At no point in either footage does it appear any officer is in any danger or in any situation that would require usage of a firearm. The guy was in fact tasered, and shot.

 

We have footage showing he was co-operating. We have the guy in the helicopter talk about how he's co-operating (And also saying 'He looks like a bad dude').

 

The female officer who fired the shot doesn't even appear to be new to the force, having been employed since 2011. And she still over-reacts and shoots this man dead, without any provocation.

 

Either you are thinking of a different case to me, or you've not seen the footage. Either way, it does appear that this guy was killed for no justifiable reason.

 

 

 

A bad Apple spoils the barrel.

 

Officers would not get away with these sorts of criminal acts, nor would they think to do some of the abuses of power that they do unless there was a level of institutional corruption or turning a blind eye that allowed it to be so. If bad officers were punished, and fired for stupid actions like shooting unarmed nonthreatening men, or for stealing, or for making up bullshit charges, it would not happen nearly as frequently as it appears to.

 

Oh I'm talking about North Carolina. There's really no excuse for Oklahoma. apperently PCP was found, but he wasn't armed or anything

 

About the apples. Should ISIS define Islam? You're quite quick to defend Islam but likewise eager to slam the police

[Aerion Brightflame]

ISIS is an ideology within Islam, the police are an institution. They aren't a smaller group within a larger demographic. 

 

It's not comparble entirely in my mind, but you can make a similar argument if you think the majority of cops are good natured if you so wish (In that the bad cops make people think all cops are bad cops). 

 

There is a central body within the police that should monitor and clamp down on behavoir like that we have been seeing. There are procedures to find an officer at fault and to remove him from his job. These don't exist within Islam, there's no central body to monitor control and punish people who stretch to a poor ideology. However in the police, as evidenced from the continual amount of times this happens and by the fact officers rarely loose jobs over murder, over the fact that people who do attempt to speak out within the force generally get punished, these insitutions either do not work, or they aren't actually doing the job they are intended to, which means you have instituional corruption, which means gradually more and more officers will accept this kind of bull as the norm and the police will continue to degrade. 

 

Institutional failing is very hard to fix however. And the issue is, I think the scale of the problem gets underestimated (Hence leading to frustrations). But there are routes to do so, mostly involving around oversight to punish failing behaviours and reward good such behaviours because it instils the correct ethic within recruits.  

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/betty-shelby-tulsa-charged-terence-crutcher-228542

 

Justice. Is. Served.

 

NC guy had a gun, refused to drop it, and walked towards the cop. That's different 

[Aerion Brightflame]

She's only being charged with 1st degree manslaughter. Which is in part defined as: "perpetrated unnecessarily either while resisting an attempt by the person killed to commit a crime, or after such attempt shall have failed"

 

So unless I am reading it wrong, they are still accusing the man who was shot of wrongdoing here, which is kinda unfair given the evidence and given he was doing absolutely nothing that presented a threat requiring lethal force (As we can see on the video and from the helicopter comments.

 

And it's only a charge. She will no doubt need a conviction to occur before it actually matters, if she gets off this is just a token show which is bad. No justice has been served yet. 

 

But I guess progress of a sort is progress. 

[vla1ne]

it's progress though. sweet progress. on the other hand, stop race-baiting. (not you, the news outlets) i get that the race may have (very probably) played a part,but making it even larger of an issue, is not how you solve the issue. you have to roll it back. this was a good step, and even if it's not 1st murder, it's a sentence nonetheless, and that's what we need to start progress on police accountability. on the other hand, i'm damn glad there were no riots.

[Aerion Brightflame]

it's progress though. sweet progress. on the other hand, stop race-baiting. (not you, the news outlets) i get that the race may have (very probably) played a part,but making it even larger of an issue, is not how you solve the issue. you have to roll it back. this was a good step, and even if it's not 1st murder, it's a sentence nonetheless, and that's what we need to start progress on police accountability. on the other hand, i'm damn glad there were no riots.

 

Charge. We have a long time before we get any form of sentence hearing on this. So this could still backfire if the cop walks without a conviction, because then it'll look like the courts are against them as well. 

 

Hopefully the case should be solid enough given the video footage however, because it is really damning video footage. 

 

On the other hand, she is going to get eaten alive in prison. Because you know, she's a cop who may be going into jail. That ain't gonna end well. 

[vla1ne]

Charge. We have a long time before we get any form of sentence hearing on this. So this could still backfire if the cop walks without a conviction, because then it'll look like the courts are against them as well. 

 

Hopefully the case should be solid enough given the video footage however, because it is really damning video footage. 

 

On the other hand, she is going to get eaten alive in prison. Because you know, she's a cop who may be going into jail. That ain't gonna end well. 

ah sheet, my bad, i though they said she got sentenced to 4 years, not that she was potentially up for four years in prison. in either case, the fact that we're getting a trial is nonetheless a damn good start, and considering the evidence we have on hand, i can't see any reason why she wouldn't get some form of sentence. personally, i think they went manslaughter because it's the easier conviction. sure, it's less time, but considering, as you said, she's a cop going to prison, 4 years is still gonna be a looong time.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

They could have hammered him over the PCP possession, I'm glad they didn't

['tyleR]

They could have hammered him over the PCP possession, I'm glad they didn't

 

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The reason they didn't is because that is a man who didn't actually possess PCP.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

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The reason they didn't is because that is a man who didn't actually possess PCP.

Oh really? All the more reason that poor man gets justice

 

 

 

Now this guy on the other hand...ankle holster is clearly visible 

[Dad]

NC is open carry. So what's the issue?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

NC is open carry. So what's the issue?

The fact that the holster is empty 

[Dad]

What part of open carry makes that a problem? Niggas be walking around with AR-15s on their arms. No fear from the police or public. So explain.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

What part of open carry makes that a problem? Niggas be walking around with AR-15s on their arms. No fear from the police or public. So explain.

The pointing the gun at the cops part. Unless you think he was walking around with an empty holster and pointing a book at the cops