Affirmative Action.

[vla1ne]

i trust you all know what affirmative action is, and what it entails, for those who don't i suppose a quick look at the wiki wouldn't hurt here.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

 

so i have to ask, how many of you support its continuation (be it in this form, or through reform), and how many of you object to it?

 

in addition, for those of you who do not support it, for what reasons do you not support it? and for those who support the continuation, at what point, if any, do you believe it should be discontinued?

 

 

[spoiler=my thoughts]

personally, i believe that affirmative action is a good program, but that it should no longer be continued as-is. some people do have difficulty getting into job or college subjects without assistance, but i think that there are better ways to address the problem, such as prep classes to give an in depth explanation and understanding of whatever subject is being entered. as for AA being used for job applicants, i cannot support it, were i to be in control of a business, i would want the best working beneath me, if you require AA to get into a job position, then you need to polish your skills, and possibly lower your goals temporarily.

 

there's other pats that i personally have not covered, but i'm just putting the topic out there since there hasn't been much new to discuss, and i assume we're all tired of guns and islam. (brexit and elections are going to be hot for a while most likely, but something to break the monotony is always nice)

 

 

 

well, with that said, have at it.

[mido9]

I'm against it, I think that blacks are not so stupid as to require massively reduced standards to get something, and are perfectly capable of doing as well, or as poorly judging by obama, as anyone else with the same standards.

 

I also dislike how it leads to people hiring the wrong people, like how you might need someone specializing in idk, physics but end up needing to hire a chemist because of it or waiting a longer time to find the correct race/gender/specialization combo.

[vla1ne]

I'm against it, I think that blacks are not so stupid as to require massively reduced standards to get something, and are perfectly capable of doing as well, or as poorly judging by obama, as anyone else with the same standards.

 

I also dislike how it leads to people hiring the wrong people, like how you might need someone specializing in idk, physics but end up needing to hire a chemist because of it or waiting a longer time to find the correct race/gender/specialization combo.

yeah, that makes sense as well, can't call people equals if one needs assistance to do the exact same thing as the other. similar to this, i had a application  contest recently with my brother, whom i respected, and wanted to surpass for years, the contest was to take a job exam and see who came out on top, and i won, needless to say, that's a source of pride, and it was actually really motivating to know that i'd finally made it to his level on my own two feet. AA diminishes that to a degree, it essentially says that your achievements are false, and were given to you by the system, i just can't accept that a program like that can exist in a world where people want to be called equals.

 

that isn't always the case though. while it can lead to hiring the less qualified person, i believe if you can make a case that the person is literally not meant for the position, (like a chemist in a biology position) you can still reject the person applying. not sure on that though. but yeah, it does make it difficult to hire for efficiency. if you fit the requirements, then black, white, yellow, orange, man, woman, tank engine, or whatever other color/sex you may be, you should be fighting on equal terms for the position at hand.

[Goose]

I'm against it, I think that blacks are not so stupid as to require massively reduced standards to get something, and are perfectly capable of doing as well, or as poorly judging by obama, as anyone else with the same standards.

 

I also dislike how it leads to people hiring the wrong people, like how you might need someone specializing in idk, physics but end up needing to hire a chemist because of it or waiting a longer time to find the correct race/gender/specialization combo.

 

See that's just a flat out wrong interpretation of the policy.  You don't reduce the standards because some groups are inferior, you reduce standards because you understand that some groups don't have the same advantages as others on a systemic level. If my teachers in elementary school didn't give me as much attention, if I had to get a job at a young age, if I couldn't afford special prep classes, etc.  It's not about giving the opportunity to someone who will do it worse, it's about giving it to someone who is capable but would otherwise be unable to demonstrate that because of something they have zero control over.

[mido9]

See that's just a flat out wrong interpretation of the policy.  You don't reduce the standards because some groups are inferior, you reduce standards because you understand that some groups don't have the same advantages as others on a systemic level. If my teachers in elementary school didn't give me as much attention, if I had to get a job at a young age, if I couldn't afford special prep classes, etc.  It's not about giving the opportunity to someone who will do it worse, it's about giving it to someone who is capable but would otherwise be unable to demonstrate that because of something they have zero control over.

Yeah, but the government can't actually tell whether someone is actually disprivileged or is just a greedy bastard, and there's almost certainly more people that are capable but using AA than legitimately disadvantaged people, which is unfair to those who are actually qualified and have people doubt their degrees/think they cheated to get it.

 

Also, even if someone goes into a college with AA, it doesn't guarantee that they will be qualified to graduate from it. I mean you can put someone on a basketball team but it doesn't guarantee they're gonna score or get taller or like how only a third of blacks that get affirmative action'd into law school even graduate which wastes their money and is a miserable experience.

[a bad post]

Yeah, but the government can't actually tell whether someone is actually disprivileged or is just a greedy bastard, and there's almost certainly more people that are capable but using AA than legitimately disadvantaged people, which is unfair to those who are actually qualified and have people doubt their degrees/think they cheated to get it.

 

Also, even if someone goes into a college with AA, it doesn't guarantee that they will be qualified to graduate from it. I mean you can put someone on a basketball team but it doesn't guarantee they're gonna score or get taller or like how only a third of blacks that get affirmative action'd into law school even graduate which wastes their money and is a miserable experience.

I don't think you understand. The government doesn't need to who's dispriviledged, and who's "just a greedy bastard" because it's not about being dispriviledged it's about making sure POC who are just as qualified as they're white counterparts get hired and get into colleges. Really it's more to protect POC from being cheated out of job/college by white people who are less qualified than they are.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Affirmative action does all of jack sheet to help Asian minorities. AA IS racist. Because at the end of the day, if two people, one Black and one White are equally qualified and you select the Black Guy for his race and #yaydiversity

 

That's the textbook definition of racism 

 

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

 

More often than not, less qualified minorities often get put in roles for the color of their skin passing over more qualified Whites and Asians

[vla1ne]

I don't think you understand. The government doesn't need to who's dispriviledged, and who's "just a greedy bastard" because it's not about being dispriviledged it's about making sure POC who are just as qualified as they're white counterparts get hired and get into colleges. Really it's more to protect POC from being cheated out of job/college by white people who are less qualified than they are.

not gonna comment on too much of it, but tell me, what law is on the books that puts whites ahead of blacks? and what about asians and latinos? who is putting whites ahead of other races? because the only people being legally discriminated against, to the best of my knowledge, are white people. and as for business, they want the best person for the job these days, were that not the case, we wouldn't have high skilled immigrants coming to america. why would any business hire a white person who is less qualified than their black counterpart? the only color businesses see is green, so why would they hire the applicant who's gonna be worse at making that color?

[a bad post]

not gonna comment on too much of it, but tell me, what law is on the books that puts whites ahead of blacks? and what about asians and latinos? who is putting whites ahead of other races? because the only people being legally discriminated against, to the best of my knowledge, are white people. and as for business, they want the best person for the job these days, were that not the case, we wouldn't have high skilled immigrants coming to america. why would any business hire a white person who is less qualified than their black counterpart? the only color businesses see is green, so why would they hire the applicant who's gonna be worse at making that color?

It's not a law that's hindering POC it's institutionalized racism. Affirmative Action tries to forcibly destroy the stigma that POC, mostly blacks and latinos, don't do good work. Businessmen(and women) can't outright say we're not going to hire you because you're black/latino, but there are plenty of other legal ways they can deny that person work. It's basically the same kind of legal discrimination that allows employers to discriminate against openly LGBT people, because you can't really prove that they made the decision based on race alone. However what you can do is force people to try and create a more diverse work force, and maybe dispel the stigma towards those communities.

 

Affirmative action does all of jack s*** to help Asian minorities. AA IS racist. Because at the end of the day, if two people, one Black and one White are equally qualified and you select the Black Guy for his race and #yaydiversity

 

That's the textbook definition of racism 

 

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

 

More often than not, less qualified minorities often get put in roles for the color of their skin passing over more qualified Whites and Asians

 

You're right because Asian minorities are affected by a different type of racism. Unlike blacks and latinos they are held up as the "model POC" and held to higher standards than their black, latino and even white counterparts. AA does not classify POC as superior to whites, but is supposed to help them compete in a world that generally does not value their work (that is unless you're asian though like I said that doesn't really work in their favor either) because of the color of their skin.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's not a law that's hindering POC it's institutionalized racism. Affirmative Action tries to forcibly destroy the stigma that POC, mostly blacks and latinos, don't do good work. Businessmen(and women) can't outright say we're not going to hire you because you're black/latino, but there are plenty of other legal ways they can deny that person work. It's basically the same kind of legal discrimination that allows employers to discriminate against openly LGBT people, because you can't really prove that they made the decision based on race alone. However what you can do is force people to try and create a more diverse work force, and maybe dispel the stigma towards those communities.

 

 

 

You're right because Asian minorities are affected by a different type of racism. Unlike blacks and latinos they are held up as the "model POC" and held to higher standards than their black, latino and even white counterparts. AA does not classify POC as superior to whites, but is supposed to help them compete in a world that generally does not value their work (that is unless you're asian though like I said that doesn't really work in their favor either) because of the color of their skin.

Where there is smoker there may be fire.

 

Why do you think Blacks and Latinos get that stigma? It seems like there's a lot of diversity for diversity's sake going on here

[Dad]

Where there is smoker there may be fire.

 

Why do you think Blacks and Latinos get that stigma? It seems like there's a lot of diversity for diversity's sake going on here

 

I shouldn't be doing this but I am.

 

"You're working hard but I don't see anything to show for it."  *insert affirmative action here*

 

"Affirmative action?  There's no proof you worked hard!"  *insert discredited actions here*

 

But to be fair that can be a catch 22.  Affirmative action was meant to be geared towards those who can't afford higher education to be able to afford it.  But it turned into a system designed to combat a struggling, violent community that's stuck in a loop, and thus makes it controversial because 90% of the people who benefit from it are not white.  That makes it controversial.

[bury the year]

You don't reduce the standards because some groups are inferior, you reduce standards because you understand that some groups don't have the same advantages as others on a systemic level.

ty Goose

 

This isn't just a racial argument - it's an economic one. Economic and racial inequality are often tied together in the US, like it or not. These affirmative action programs allow people who are disenfranchised by virtue of being both economic and racial minorities to receive the same opportunities that others (read: wealthy/middle class status and white-ness) could afford them.

[vla1ne]

ty Goose

 

This isn't just a racial argument - it's an economic one. Economic and racial inequality are often tied together in the US, like it or not. These affirmative action programs allow people who are disenfranchised by virtue of being both economic and racial minorities to receive the same opportunities that others (read: wealthy/middle class status and white-ness) could afford them.

ecoonomic minorities who cannot afford the same things is a valid argument, racial minorities is not. diversity, for diversities sake is not ok. too many of you people see racism everywhere. if a person is disadvantaged, but willing to work, and improve themselves, then they deserve the extra backing and funds to level the playing field.it does not matter what race or gender they are. 

 

to elly, in regards to institutionalized racism: who cares? really. if a business isn't willing to hire you solely due to your skin color or gender, and finds a way to do so, then either move on to the next one, or start your own. unless you're literally claiming that every single business, or the overwhelming majority out there are racist and sexist, the claim holds no water. yes, there was a time when that was the case, but we are far enough past it that we can take off that particular set of training wheels. and if you really are making such a claim, you need to bring actual evidence. more than just saying there's phantom loopholes that are somehow abused by racists and sexists to keep women and blacks/latinos/any other ethnic crayon out of the all white sausage box.

[Dad]

to elly, in regards to institutionalized racism: who cares? really. if a business isn't willing to hire you solely due to your skin color or gender, and finds a way to do so, then either move on to the next one, or start your own. unless you're literally claiming that every single business, or the overwhelming majority out there are racist and sexist, the claim holds no water. yes, there was a time when that was the case, but we are far enough past it that we can take off that particular set of training wheels. and if you really are making such a claim, you need to bring actual evidence. more than just saying there's phantom loopholes that are somehow abused by racists and sexists to keep women and blacks/latinos/any other ethnic crayon out of the all white sausage box.

 

I think what Elly was getting at is that discrimination based on these things (race, sexuality, etc) is part of why Affirmative Action is a thing.  And even after making this type of discrimination illegal, some business owners have found or created ways to discriminate or hinder minorities or women specifically.  Basically, it's funked up.

 

But I'm with vla1ne on this one.  I've told my dudes time and time again.  If they don't like you, funk em and get yourself a better/different job.  Now, if it's on some corporate sheet, and you know for sure you're well qualified, or a better candidate than someone else and you still get stiffed for the aforementioned reasons, you could always try to sue if you're desperate and have evidence.  But that's so funking hard to prove that you're better off trying a new location.  funked up as that is.

[vla1ne]

I think what Elly was getting at is that discrimination based on these things (race, sexuality, etc) is part of why Affirmative Action is a thing.  And even after making this type of discrimination illegal, some business owners have found or created ways to discriminate or hinder minorities or women specifically.  Basically, it's f***ed up.

 

But I'm with vla1ne on this one.  I've told my dudes time and time again.  If they don't like you, f*** em and get yourself a better/different job.  Now, if it's on some corporate s***, and you know for sure you're well qualified, or a better candidate than someone else and you still get stiffed for the aforementioned reasons, you could always try to sue if you're desperate and have evidence.  But that's so f***ing hard to prove that you're better off trying a new location.  f***ed up as that is.

 

i get that much, i do know it's a thing, and i know that when it was established, it was incredibly necessary to help people who were discriminated against get on their feet. my opinion on it is that it's not needed anymore, at least not in the area of race and gender. racists and sexists still exist, but they no longer hold enough legal authority, to be a legit issue. it's already illegal to discriminate against anybody on the aforementioned basis, as far as AA based upon economic status, that is 100% justified, there is a clear disparity there, and funding people so that they don't have anything holding them back (as far as finance goes) is a reasonable effort.

 

 

if they don't want you, then that's their loss. there's more jobs out there, and you don't want to work for racists anyways do you? if you've got evidence, just sue them and keep it moving.

[IQuitDolphin]

Why are people still defending Affirmative Action? Like in the past (around JFK I think when the idea was first brought up) it was a valid argument because most blacks just started becoming more free and less prone to discrimination; Black children had a rough life back then that forced them to have less opportunities than their white peers, so it appeared to be a solution. The only problem is, it's hardly a solution now. We are now 1 generation in after the Civil Rights (Liberties, ffs) movement, and most of the same people who would benefit from affirmative action are either old or dead.

 

So, the only people who Affirmative Action will affect is our current generation, or those born from 2000 onward. Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but the living conditions of blacks are essentially the same as whites, which only very marginal differences. They go to the same schools as whites, they live in almost the same neighborhoods, and even have the same leisure activities. (now, we could argue the apparent stereotype that blacks live in the ghettos, but the fact is most black families are still living in a sustainable standard of living with at least a TV, etc.) Blacks are now at the point they can compete with whites WITHOUT condescending handicaps.

 

To a give a CHILD something that affected his or her PARENTS is an awfully poor implementation, and it only demeans the child mentally and can even ruin their lives by giving them the option of going to a college beyond their ability and achievements.

 

It also takes away the value of hard work as well as, more importantly, the improvement of character. If both people are of the same skill and achievements, you would choose the one that you feel would fit in more, or the one with the better personality, etc. NOT if they are black or Asian or white. The introduction of Affirmative Action has blinded the people into forgetting the true guidelines by which you judge people and have boiled it down to a simple matter of race, which in my opinion is just racism (lol liberals) and an obvious use of "political correctness".

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Trump is winning with the middle class (income $35-$75K) 47 to 37 White Trump 53 Clinton 32 Black Trump 6 Clinton 82 Hispanic Trump 24 Clinton 57 Other Trump 55 Clinton 37 (LATimes/USC)

 

It's not hard to see why Asians are going towards Trump. AA so disproportionately backing other minorities plays to the false narrative that Asians have everything alright, already