Noah's Ark

[Forest Fire]

Preface: this morning there was a Family Circus comic that involved Noah's Ark and I asked my Grandmother (who I think I've mentioned as being religious): how Noah could store an amount of food such that it could provide for all the animals on the Ark (most predator's won't hunt prey if they don't have to) on his already extremely to small boat? (and if he could, where was it stored)

 

Now, without really getting into the religious aspect of it (cause I know how that would turn out) or the validity of the story, I'd like to know what YCM thinks: how could Noah accomplish this?

also, side question: if you subscribe to the theory of evolution (idk, some people here might not) what kind of animals do you think Noah might have had on the Ark?

 

_{^{just thought it might be an interesting conversation.}}

 

yada yada, i'll lock this if people get flamey, etc.

 

 

if this is in the wrong section, idk where it'd go.

[Snatch Steal]

I'm assuming it would also behoove everyone not to explain in detail why Noah's Ark wouldn't work. My argument is hypothetical.

 

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The thing is, it's mentioned that two of every animal is brought. This means that there wouldn't be enough to propagate the species. Thus, since we have so much diversity today, we could assume that there were fewer animals on board that just crossbred. 

Unfortunately, evolution takes longer than a thousand years or so.

 

As far as food, fishing is always an option, although it's mind-boggling how one person could fish so much. For the herbivores, he could have...grown plants in a greenhouse?

 

Maybe it was more of an ecosystem than it was a zoo.

[Forest Fire]

I'm assuming it would also behoove everyone not to explain in detail why Noah's Ark wouldn't work. My argument is hypothetical.

 

Now, without really getting into the religious aspect of it (cause I know how that would turn out) or the validity of the story

yea. 

 

 

The thing is, it's mentioned that two of every animal is brought. This means that there wouldn't be enough to propagate the species. Thus, since we have so much diversity today, we could assume that there were fewer animals on board that just crossbred. 

Unfortunately, evolution takes longer than a thousand years or so.

 

As far as food, fishing is always an option, although it's mind-boggling how one person could fish so much. For the herbivores, he could have...grown plants in a greenhouse?

 

Maybe it was more of an ecosystem than it was a zoo.

I do like the idea of it being some kind of ecosystem. And yea, evolution takes way longer than that.

[MiracleGhost47]

The food could have been stored in crates that float around the boat, attached with some kind of string. 

[Halubaris Maphotika]

When God had Noah build the ark, he taught Noah to make a concoction that would make all of the animals fall asleep for most of the trip. They would wake up periodically to eat and then go back to sleep. This was to keep the predators from eating other animals. Your grandmother seems to vastly underestimate the size of the Ark itself. The Bible postulates the Ark as having been 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. This is actually an understatement as the cubits identified by the Bible are considered a much larger measurement and so it could easily house the right amount of animals and food. Modern estimates would equate it to the size of a three story building.

 

Also, keep in mind that the Earth was in its earliest stages of creation during the time this story takes place. Because of this, evolution was still happening, so there were fewer animals to house than we have now. The common Christian discrepancy is the belief that the Earth is 6,000 years old. This is taken too literal from the scriptures, as the Bible postulates in 2 Peter 3:8 that one day for God is equivalent to a thousand years. Making the Earth much, much older according to the Biblical scriptures.

[MiracleGhost47]

Also, keep in mind that the Earth was in its earliest stages of creation during the time this story takes place. Because of this, evolution was still happening, so there were fewer animals to house than we have now. The common Christian discrepancy is the belief that the Earth is 6,000 years old. This is taken too literal from the scriptures, as the Bible postulates in 2 Peter 3:8 that a day for God is equivalent to a thousand years. Making the Earth much, much older according to the Biblical scriptures.

Sorry, your punctuation is a little confusing. When you refer to a "day", are you talking about the seven days of creation? 

[Halubaris Maphotika]

Sorry, your punctuation is a little confusing. When you refer to a "day", are you talking about the seven days of creation? 

The verse references an average day for God. However, it can be attributed to the seven days as well.

[Forest Fire]

Your grandmother seems to vastly underestimate the size of the Ark itself. The Bible postulates the Ark as having been 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. This is actually an understatement as the cubits identified by the Bible are considered a much larger measurement

I think you overestimate how big 450 feet by 75 feet is. (and I was the one to first mention how small the Ark would be) To put it into perspective, it is 1 1/4 american football fields long and .... less than half as wide as a single field. (https://www.google.com/search?q=size+of+a+football+feild+in+feet&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=size+of+a+football+field+in+feet)

 

also, the Bible uses the standard cubit size, according to you (and the internet), which is approximately 1.5 feet.

 

Also, keep in mind that the Earth was in its earliest stages of creation during the time this story takes place.

 

 

Noah's ark story happens sometime after the humans evolved, and after they were intelligent enough to have community's and know how to build bigger boats. sometime around 10,000 BCE, man's ancestor's could build a boat with room for 20 paddlers,  (http://www-labs.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Prehistoric_Craft) though it was probably not what we'd think of when considering the Ark. something like what Wikipedia talks about in it's History section might maybe fit the bill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat), which would (maybe) put the Ark's creation at 140,000 years ago. not exceedingly long ago.

 

 

Also, keep in mind that the Earth was in its earliest stages of creation during the time this story takes place. Because of this, evolution was still happening, so there were fewer animals to house than we have now.

as i mentioned above, this story most likely happened 140,000 years ago. animals would not have been incredibly different back then.

 

The food could have been stored in crates that float around the boat, attached with some kind of string.

that's a lot of crates, but ok.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

I think you overestimate how big 450 feet by 75 feet is. To put it into perspective, it is 1 1/4 american football fields long and .... less than half as wide. (https://www.google.com/search?q=size+of+a+football+feild+in+feet&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=size+of+a+football+field+in+feet)

 

also, the Bible uses the standard cubit size, according to you (and the internet), which is approximately 1.5 feet.

 

 

 

Noah's ark story happens sometime after the humans evolved, and after they were intelligent enough to have community's and know how to build bigger boats. sometime around 10,000 BCE, man's ancestor's could build a boat with room for 20 paddlers,  (http://www-labs.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Prehistoric_Craft) though it was probably not what we'd think of when considering the Ark. something like what Wikipedia talks about in it's History section might maybe fit the bill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat), which would (maybe) put the Ark's creation at 140,000 years ago. not exceedingly long ago.

 

 

as i mentioned above, this story most likely happened 140,000 years ago. animals would not have been incredibly different back then.

Eh.

 

The flood destroyed a primitive version of humans. These old versions of human could live hundreds of years. Humans would evolve differently after the flood. Also, we can't truly know which standard version of cubits the Bible is using, so I suppose that is up in the air. Noah's Ark takes place much earlier, possibly before the Jurassic period, or Hell, before the Dinosaurs really got going. I think modern Christians put Noah's journey way too late than it actually is. The humans during the time of Enoch and the humans after the flood are too separate species of human.

[Forest Fire]

Eh.

 

The flood destroyed a primitive version of humans. These old versions of human could live hundreds of years. Humans would evolve differently after the flood. Also, we can't truly know which standard version of cubits the Bible is using, so I suppose that is up in the air. Noah's Ark takes place much earlier, possibly before the Jurassic period, or Hell, before the Dinosaurs really got going. I think modern Christians put Noah's journey way too late than it actually is. The humans during the time of Enoch and the humans after the flood are too separate species of human.

A) i googled how big a cubit was. 1.5 feet.

B) humans did not exist during, nor before dinosaurs; if they had, we would not exist now because there's no way in hell or heaven we would have survived the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

A) i googled how big a cubit was. 1.5 feet.

B) humans did not exist during, nor before dinosaurs; if they had, we would not exist now because there's no way in hell or heaven we would have survived the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs.

Then explain how mammals survived where the dinosaurs didn't. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/science-nature/why-did-mammals-survive-when-dinosaurs-perished-63229592/

 

Remember, we are mammals as well.

 

Also I think this link will provide some interesting tidbits about the ark. https://answersingenesis.org/noahs-ark/putting-the-ark-into-perspective/

[Forest Fire]

Then explain how mammals survived where the dinosaurs didn't. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/science-nature/why-did-mammals-survive-when-dinosaurs-perished-63229592/

 

Remember, we are mammals as well.

 

Also I think this link will provide some interesting tidbits about the ark. https://answersingenesis.org/noahs-ark/putting-the-ark-into-perspective/

small mammals; as in rodents. human existence started a few million years ago at most (maybe, for exceedingly primitive humans), that's not even considering modern humans. dinosaurs have been extinct for more than 10x that amount of time

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+did+dinosaurs+go+extinct&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/homo-sapiens

http://australianmuseum.net.au/when-and-where-did-our-species-originate

 

humans did NOT exist while dinosaurs did.

[Azure Wolf]

If we take the ark in the young Earth biblical belief were the Earth is ~6000 years old (with old Earth being ~6000 years for God and a few million for us), and correct me if I'm wrong as it has been a while since I last touched my bible, the story of Noah takes place before the Tower of Babel so there probably wasn't that many different types of animals, so there were only a few different types of snakes, a couple of different types of big cats, so Noah wouldn't need to bring as much food as there would be needed now. Food wouldn't be a large problem due to God supplying a way for the animals to not need to take in as much food and fresh water. Any insects on the boat probably had their life spans extending, or had laid eggs on the ark before leaving so they hatch after the waters recede.

 

Going off this after the Tower of Babel God also moved different species to different areas before splitting what was a whole land mass, and then accelerating evolution and life to repoulate the new continents.

 

Wouldn't try to delve into Old Earth stuff as I mainly grew up learning what is basically Young Earth, might look into it though.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

small mammals; as in rodents. human existence started a few million years ago at most, that's not even considering modern vs prehistoric humans. dinosaurs have been extinct for billions of years.

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+did+dinosaurs+go+extinct&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/homo-sapiens

http://australianmuseum.net.au/when-and-where-did-our-species-originate

 

humans did NOT exist while dinosaurs did.

You make a convincing argument.

 

However, the dinosaurs officially went extinct 65 Million years ago. I feel it is safe to say the Great Flood happened way before 140,000 years ago. Not to mention that God wiped off evidence of the original humans to forget them and their sinful nature. The humans now and the ones before the flood are really different. During the building of the Ark, Noah was celebrating his 600th birthday. These humans were living at astronomical lengths. Even then, the first humans (the second set of humans, not the originals), are recorded to have appeared seven million years ago. Even then, the flood and Noah's ark would have to have happened before then. So I would say the event took place between 64 Million and 8 million years ago.

[Forest Fire]

You make a convincing argument.

 

However, the dinosaurs officially went extinct 65 Million years ago. I feel it is safe to say the Great Flood happened way before 140,000 years ago. Not to mention that God wiped off evidence of the original humans to forget them and their sinful nature. The humans now and the ones before the flood are really different. During the building of the Ark, Noah was celebrating his 600th birthday. These humans were living at astronomical lengths. Even then, the first humans (the second set of humans, not the originals), are recorded to have appeared seven million years ago. Even then, the flood and Noah's ark would have to have happened before then. So I would say the event took place between 64 Million and 8 million years ago.

yeah. i did edit my post, as i did overstate some facts.

 

If we take the ark in the young Earth biblical belief were the Earth is ~6000 years old

or we could not do that, as it's not true.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=actual+age+of+the+earth&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

along with the five links i provided in my last post in response to halubaris, there's plenty of actual scientific proof that humans have existed longer that then bible thinks earth has.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

yeah. i did edit my post, as i did overstate some facts.

 

or we could not do that, as it's not true.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=actual+age+of+the+earth&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

along with the five links i provided in my last post in response to halubaris, there's plenty of actual scientific proof that humans have existed longer that then bible thinks earth has.

As I have pointed out earlier though. I think people have misinterpreted the Bible's stance on the Earth's age. The Earth's age was registered under the time as understood by God. This means that one day for God was almost equivalent to 1,000 years. Making the age of the Earth much, much older. Time is very different to God, and the Bible was HIS word translated to the ears of mortals. With this in mind, his version of time cannot completely be understood by humans without a comparison. And so Peter 3:8 gives us this idea, however, even then he says it with uncertainty, as even he cannot comprehend God's unearthly sense of time. The Bible's explanation of the Earth's age is much longer but many Christians take it a bit too literally.

[Azure Wolf]

yeah. i did edit my post, as i did overstate some facts.or we could not do that, as it's not true.https://www.google.com/search?q=actual+age+of+the+earth&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8along with the five links i provided in my last post in response to halubaris, there's plenty of actual scientific proof that humans have existed longer that then bible thinks earth has.

I'm just putting down what I can think of at the moment. I'll skim the articles but as I said I was only posting one of the beliefs. I'm not entirely knowledgable in Old Earth beliefs so I could only give thoughts going from a Young Earth. I probably could have added more to it but it is around 3 in the morning so I'm half asleep. I don't doubt that scientific evidence disproves a Young Earth due to things like carbon dating and the half-life of some elements, it is just mainly as I grew up learning about a Young Earth in RE and during church.

[Forest Fire]

As I have pointed out earlier though. I think people have misinterpreted the Bible's stance on the Earth's age. The Earth's age was registered under the time as understood by God. This means that one day for God was almost equivalent to 1,000 years. Making the age of the Earth much, much older. Time is very different to God, and the Bible was HIS word translated to the ears of mortals. With this in mind, his version of time cannot completely be understood by humans without a comparison. And so Peter 3:8 gives us this idea, however, even then he says it with uncertainty, as even he cannot comprehend God's unearthly sense of time. The Bible's explanation of the Earth's age is much longer but many Christians take it a bit too literally.

take your thoughts into consideration and that's still only 11,000 years.

https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/how-old-is-the-earth/

 

though, i think if we continue this much more i'm going to be the one to end up flaming.

 

I'm not entirely knowledgable in Old Earth beliefs

it's not really a belief if it's supported by scientific research, generally that's either called a scientific theory or a fact

[Halubaris Maphotika]

take your thoughts into consideration and that's still only 11,000 years.

https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/how-old-is-the-earth/

 

though, i think if we continue this much more i'm going to be the one to end up flaming.

Really?

 

You mean the calculation of 1 Day=1000 Years for 6000 Years? Or their calculation?

[Forest Fire]

Really?

 

You mean the calculation of 1 Day=1000 Years for 6000 Years? Or their calculation?

the two together was my thought process. and if the really was to me getting flamey; i'm getting tired (in general), and that's not the best state for me to be talking about something like this, since it involves religion; though i did ask us to try to steer clear of talking about the religious aspect of it

[Halubaris Maphotika]

the two together was my thought process. and if the really was to me getting flamey; i'm getting tired (in general), and that's not the best state for me to be talking about something like this, since it involves religion; though i did ask us to try to steer clear of talking about the religious aspect of it

Ah my bad. I missed that.

 

I will exit stage left then.

[MiracleGhost47]

The humans now and the ones before the flood are really different. 

Interesting. Do you mean appearance-wise? if so, it's true they may have been somewhat different, but the Bible claims that all men are and were created in the image of God (1 Corinthians 11:7 and Genesis 1:27). 1 Corinthians was probably written at around AD 57. The "image of God" is naturally a vague description of God himself, but it implies that there were some similarities between ancient men and present men. It likely refers to the facial details, at the very least.

 

I know you didn't say "exactly different". This isn't meant to contradict you or anything, I'm just giving you better insight into the Bible's interpretation of what qualities were similar of all men. 

 

the two together was my thought process. and if the really was to me getting flamey; i'm getting tired (in general), and that's not the best state for me to be talking about something like this, since it involves religion; though i did ask us to try to steer clear of talking about the religious aspect of it

Sadly, history is sometimes difficult to separate from religion. Religion itself is based on history, after all. I hope I haven't gotten flamey in posts haha. If you need to rest, that's understandable. 

[Astolfo]

moral of the story: everything is from incest

[vla1ne]

well, in order to figure somehting like this out, you have to also figure out how animals like kangaroos got from an island to the middle east and back without dying, also, the PH balance after a worldwide flood would kill pretty much all marine life, and in addition, you have to factor in insects, all of them, because 180 days with everything flooded would be enough to kill any and all life not on that board. and on top of that, you have to factor construction, what would a wooden boat capable of surviving waves that dwarf mount everest look like? and how would it need to be built internally to sustain animals the likes of elephants and tigers. unless you use magic, there's no possible explanation. and magic isn't really the goal of this thread i assume. in addition to that, fecal matter disposal, animals sheet a lot. and past that, evolution's already been mentioned, even a football field can't hold one of, much less two to several, of every type of animal alive with the amount of space that they require, while also having enough room to move and reorganize then as would be necessary during an ocean storm.

 

just my 2 cents.

[Forest Fire]

well, in order to figure somehting like this out, you have to also figure out how animals like kangaroos got from an island to the middle east and back without dying, also, the PH balance after a worldwide flood would kill pretty much all marine life, and in addition, you have to factor in insects, all of them, because 180 days with everything flooded would be enough to kill any and all life not on that board. and on top of that, you have to factor construction, what would a wooden boat capable of surviving waves that dwarf mount everest look like? and how would it need to be built internally to sustain animals the likes of elephants and tigers. unless you use magic, there's no possible explanation. and magic isn't really the goal of this thread i assume. in addition to that, fecal matter disposal, animals s*** a lot. and past that, evolution's already been mentioned, even a football field can't hold one of, much less two to several, of every type of animal alive with the amount of space that they require, while also having enough room to move and reorganize then as would be necessary during an ocean storm.

 

just my 2 cents.

 

 

there you go. every problem dealt with.

 

on a more serious note, I have no clue how Noah would have dealt with this; nor do I believe that it really happened, but suspension of disbelief and all that.