About the New Forum Rules

[Blake]

<_>

 

 

Comments like "you're dumb" are an offense precisely because they're an actual attack on a person that detracts from any given discussion. It is the type of comment that moderators exist to clean up in order to facilitate discussion and keep things from devolving further towards posturing and further away from the topic. The idea that an insult isn't an "actual" insult due to brevity or being too "minor" for you to acknowledge is to ignore the definition of what an insult is and to create your own. Moreover, you save face by being consistent and not having to explain yourself all the time because your rule is vague. The way you're going, it's going to be very difficult for you to give flaming warnings at all, as you'll always be suspected of sympathizing with the opponents of whoever you choose to warn. 

 

My argument isn't that I want to see more warnings dished out. I don't use the report button. My problem is with the lack of clarity, because however well and sensibly you might think you enforce unclear rules, you're leaving yourself open to accusations of being too harsh or too lenient. What then? Your only choices are to move towards clarity, or shut down the dialogue completely through abuse of power. That you're already deliberately avoiding clarity makes your motives questionable. Distinguishing between "minor" and "major" insults can't be done without a degree of subjectivity, and these labels only serve to further mystify something that isn't complicated. You may think obfuscation gives you carte blanche to use your powers however you want. For such moderators, it never ends well. I think you've seen enough moderators come and go to know what I mean. 

 

 

This doesn't make sense. Do you know what impartiality is? 

I understand your concerns, but what's the alternative? The problem the team faces is due to hivemind in regards to these issues, from either side, results in getting lynched. We're discussing how to handle cases, somewhat, though we do need to discuss more.

 

One side wants everyone to be warned for calling them dumb, and the other wants us to give 100% free reign, pretty much. Both are wrong, and no one has tried to give any middle ground, simply have their side enforced. This was an attempt to find some sort of middle ground, because of the amount of reports that seem to target someone the reporter dislikes, while technically being within the rules.

 

And while this could make it more difficult to warn... Um, we already have that issue. Not going to go into details with this, but yeah, politics are a jabroni.

 

We encountered a similar such issue with the rule about sexual content. I'm of the belief that we shouldn't be warning it at the drop of a pin, and I tried to make sure it wasn't too all-encompassing.

 

With the exception of one moderator, the team seems to be united in feeling that calling someone dumb/troglodyte doesn't qualify for a warn. It hasn't been discussed in full at this time, but reports through the last few months show such. And there are, valid, concerns that this will give people the freedom to insult as they want, but we don't want this, either.

 

There's no opposition to clarity, here, just the issue that our hands are tied in how clear we can be, especially with issues that are not black and white. Which are msot of them.

 

I typo'd cause I was tired. Meant partiality. Sorry. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I report things that I feel could constitute spam and flaming so that mods can look at it and decide if it's a problem or not.

Because I am not a mod so I do not feel it's my place to judge each case personally. But if something is iffy I report it.

 

"No flaming or malicious behavior.

 

Do not purposefully provoke and/or attack another member. If someone has provoked you, settle it in a mature manner or bring it up with the mods. YCM is a place where nobody should feel harassed. Harassing another member of YCM in any way, on or off the forum, will never be tolerated, no matter what you think that person did to "deserve" such treatment."

 

This has been the rule regarding flaming for the entire site for...well a long time. I am pretty sure calling someone a moron falls under this. I do not understand why YCM has to become slowly more hostile-friendly and accepting of even minor insults because some people are of the opinion that it shouldn't matter.

 

And no, I don't care if someone insults me and I can deal with harassment most of the time. It happens a lot and it doesn't do much to me. But I also don't think it's right to hold everyone to my own thoughts on personal insults.

 

Honestly I think I should be reporting MORE often than I am.

[Aerion Brightflame]

It's often the case in debates that people wind up getting fairly worked up for one reason or another. When tempers are high, it's fairly easy for one or more of us to slip and call someone 'a funking moron' or something along those lines. It's not intended to be harassment, it's just an unfortunate reaction.

 

The issue should only arise if the behavoir is consitent and directed. Because then either that person is trying to harass someone else, or they need to address the manner in which them compose themself.

 

You can't, and shouldn't baby proof the site. People swear and insult in the heat of the moment (Or swear because it's satisfying in my case), which is why the spirit of the rule matters more than the written rule - It's intended to stop harassment, but one off insults don't qualify as that in my view.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

It's often the case in debates that people wind up getting fairly worked up for one reason or another. When tempers are high, it's fairly easy for one or more of us to slip and call someone 'a funking moron' or something along those lines. It's not intended to be harassment, it's just an unfortunate reaction.

 

The issue should only arise if the behavoir is consitent and directed. Because then either that person is trying to harass someone else, or they need to address the manner in which them compose themself.

 

You can't, and shouldn't baby proof the site. People swear and insult in the heat of the moment (Or swear because it's satisfying in my case), which is why the spirit of the rule matters more than the written rule - It's intended to stop harassment, but one off insults don't qualify as that in my view.

Which is why it's wrong to suddenly go "Don't you dare report this". Because it's still against the rules, in many cases, and seeing as this is online one's words take a certain amount of thought. If someone cannot hold back then it should at least be addressed and people should be told they need to pull it back a bit.

With this rule I wouldn't be able to report even if someone is directly trying to attack someone, or if they do it all the time. I just am not allowed to report "minor" insults. (Also I would say that it's pretty bad to put such a blanket "I think this is petty of an insult so it's fine" statement.)

[Aerion Brightflame]

Again; The spirit of the rule shouldn't be 'Don't you dare report this', it's 'Use your own discretion' rather than blindly following the existing rule. If someone is frequently harassing someone, with minor insults, that means that instead of reporting single posts of multiple instances that just irritate the mods, you have a single report, highlighting all the multiple cases of this behavoir, and you can go 'This is indicative of harassment, something should be done'. Which is far more effective anyway at getting the mods to deal with harassment.

 

The wording on the rules changes is presumably not absolute. It can be changed to accomodate this sort of thing. I just think reporting every individual bit of minor insults used in debates is funking pointless, because tempers run high, and you probably bombard the mods with more reports than they are happy dealing with for no real reason.

 

If the wording itself is implying that you suddenly can't report a minor insult even if there's like 50 of them directed at one person, then it should be changed, but I really doubt that's what the mod team had in mind. They just want people to stop reporting EVERY instance of insults whilst ignoring context.

[Dad]

There's a reason I said, "use your best judgment". But that's vague. I'll fix it.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Again; The spirit of the rule shouldn't be 'Don't you dare report this', it's 'Use your own discretion' rather than blindly following the existing rule. If someone is frequently harassing someone, with minor insults, that means that instead of reporting single posts of multiple instances that just irritate the mods, you have a single report, highlighting all the multiple cases of this behavoir, and you can go 'This is indicative of harassment, something should be done'. Which is far more effective anyway at getting the mods to deal with harassment.

 

The wording on the rules changes is presumably not absolute. It can be changed to accomodate this sort of thing. I just think reporting every individual bit of minor insults used in debates is funking pointless, because tempers run high, and you probably bombard the mods with more reports than they are happy dealing with for no real reason.

 

If the wording itself is implying that you suddenly can't report a minor insult even if there's like 50 of them directed at one person, then it should be changed, but I really doubt that's what the mod team had in mind. They just want people to stop reporting EVERY instance of insults whilst ignoring context.

Shouldn't mods keep track of how much someone has done something? Why is it up to the members to gather all the instances?

I mean that's why I report single posts, to keep the mods updated in case they missed one, and so they can use their judgement to determine it's breaking the rules when I'm unsure. (Iirc one of the things said about reporting is to report things that are questionable)

 

Also the wording on the rules is important because it was edited specifically to be more clear. Glad to see it's being addressed though.

 

Not trying to be overly rude but I don't really care if they don't want to deal with the reports. It's partially what they're around for. If it's legitimate one person reporting a dozen really tame and silly things, yeah, but other than that it's kind of ridiculous to punish people for not sharing the same opinion on what's bad or not as whatever mod happens to be looking at it.

 

For the record I probably average one report a day in Debates (on average, some days none, some a couple) so I doubt it's "bombard"

In fact I had asked a couple mods before how much reporting gets done and I've been told the number isn't extremely high. I guess that depends on the individual but still.

 

As to the last bit "whilst ignoring context". I'm thinking "Being heated and saying something stupid" is the correct context for a report. Seeing as a heated and immature response is kind of the thing that is undesired.

[Dad]

Debate rules updated 4/12/2017.  See the pinned topic for further information.

[Dad]

Gonna lock and unpin this. Refer discussion to the pinned [section Discussion] thread.