UK EU Referendum [In or Out?]

[~~~~]

I will be voting to stay in the EU because I really like some of the laws that it has imposed on the UK, such as the Human Rights one and especially those putting limits on our greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution.

 

 

MOD NOTE: THIS THREAD WAS MERGED

[~British Soul~]

I will also be voting to stay in the EU, more-or-less because leaving would put our economy at risk.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Well I can't vote, but then again sovereign Independence is a trait I strongly believe in. Granted that's harder for the UK to do. Many of the EU's "human Rights" laws don't agree with my personally. Nor their very liberal open immigration policies.

Funny enough the US Fed is keeping rates stable regardless of Brexit...which Seems questionable to say the least

[mido9]

I would vote for leave because I believe that the EU's regulations(which apply regardless of whether you're exporting to the EU or not but not all businesses export to the EU) are very damaging to the economy, especially when Europe is arguably the slowest growing economy in the world for the last two decades averaging 2% growth per year for decades, that Britain Spends too much more on the EU than it gets back, that the EU has broken too many of its own laws such as booting members which pass 60% debt-as-percent of GDP and over 3% deficits and the law more-or-less prohibiting large bailouts, and that it just ties the fate of Britain with countries like the PIIGS coalition which spend irresponsibly like some global welfare fund, and spain's unemployment rate is higher than that of the great depression AND the great recession.

 

Basically, Britain gives the EU a lot of money, a lot of control over its borders, and a lot of control over its businesses and gets back nothing but regulations it can impose on its own and some consolation prize cheaper plane tickets, and that the EU hasn't created any more growth(slowest growing economies) or stability(90% of PIIGS in addition to france and some south europeans citizens think their country is in bad shape, and this is AFTER bailouts). Britain can negotiate its own trade deals, it can help who it thinks deserves it(not Spain), it can regulate whatever it feels like, it doesn't need an extra layer of bureaucracy that barely helps it and almost definitely hurts it.

[Zauls]

I'll be voting to remain. Personally I don't like the EU at all. It's controlled by far-right neoliberal technocrats and is undemocratic. However, many of the laws and regulations they have in place, particularly human rights and environmental laws, genuinely are helpful. The EU is so slow growing because it's already so developed. Averaging 2% growth per year is actually pretty good. You want steady, sustainable growth, not China style off-the-charts "destroy everything in the pursuit of growth" growth. The EU is the largest single market in the world and leaving would obviously harm trade, increase the trade deficit and increase inflation due to compulsory tariffs that will be imposed on us. Unemployment would rise and the standard of living would fall.

 

People saying we can make our own trade deals: Sure, we can, but do you trust the current UK government to make deals that will be for the benefit of anyone except their extremely wealthy peers? I'd rather have the far-right EU technocrats making trade deals than the even further extreme-right Conservative sociopaths.

 

Also, the Brexit campaign has been an absolute load of bollocks. Spewing outright lies, giving no indication of what we would actually do following an exit and offering nothing but empty rhetoric about "taking back control". In truth, all that would happen is that control will move from one group of wealthy elites to another. In fact, one certain wealthy elite would have even more control over us: Rupert Murdoch. He said himself that he backs Brexit because British parliament does what he says whereas the EU doesn't. We would be handing over even more power to the Murdoch empire if we leave.

[EHN.]

So this is a pretty big deal, at least it is here in the UK. 

 

I know there isn't a large amount of UK members here but I am still interested to hear what people have to say. I'm personally voting to remain.

 

 

MOD NOTE: THIS THREAD WAS MERGED

[~British Soul~]

I'm also voting to remain as I think it'll be better for our economy if we do so.

 

Mind you, I read earlier that there have been a number of people signing a petition to cancel the referendum in the wake of Jo Cox's death, though it'll pretty much fall on deaf ears even if it gets enough signatures to warrant a debate about it as the vote is simply days away.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I bet 90% of YCM'ers who can vote remain will vote remain

 

Millennials don't seems to care about the mass immigration

[Aerion Brightflame]

I bet 90% of YCM'ers who can vote remain will vote remain

 

Millennials don't seems to care about the mass immigration

 

Because immigration on the whole is either a net benefit or a minor negative depending on where you get your statistics. It's nowhere near the biggest issue at work in the referendum - Money and sovereignty are. 

 

Immigration just happens to be the big talking point because people blow the issue massively out of proportion in effort to seek someone to blame. It's a reason why almost all far right parties blame immigrants it's an easy talking point that skips over the bigger issues at work as to 'why you are poor' or 'why you are unemployed' 

 

Save for say Germany bringing a milllion refugees it really doesn't have to bother us. And that was the exception rather than the rule. 

 

Cameron even got agreements that if we stay we get a greater say in immigration and control of our borders and the issues people take with immigration (Such as benefits, they can only claim it if they've been citizens for like a year or longer, can't remember the details) in the event we stay so it's even less of an actual issue. 

 

So the real reason I don't care about immigration as part of this issue isn't because I'm a millennial, or because I have a university education (Things that typically make you pro EU), but because in the scheme of things it means very little to us as things remain. 

[~~~~]

I'll be voting remain because I like the climate laws that the EU imposes on the UK - I don't trust our government at all to do the right thing for climate change.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Because immigration on the whole is either a net benefit or a minor negative depending on where you get your statistics. It's nowhere near the biggest issue at work in the referendum - Money and sovereignty are. 

 

Immigration just happens to be the big talking people because people blow the issue massively out of proportion in effort to seek someone to blame. It's a reason why almost all far right parties blame immigrants it's an easy talking point that skips over the bigger issues at work as to 'why you are poor' or 'why you are unemployed'.

 

Save for say Germany bringing a milllion refugees it really doesn't have to bother us. And that was the exception rather than the rule. 

 

Cameron even got agreements that if we stay we get a greater say in immigration and control of our borders and the issues people take with immigration (Such as benefits, they can only claim it if they've been citizens for like a year or longer, can't remember the details) in the event we stay so it's even less of an actual issue. 

 

So the real reason I don't care about immigration as part of this issue isn't because I'm a millennial, or because I have a university education (Things that typically make you pro EU), but because in the scheme of things it means very little to us as things remain. 

Well an increased labor force isn't actually a good thing 

 

I could explain in more detail if you want, but here's the gist of it

 

1. NATIONAL INCOME IDENTITY Y = C + I => y = c + i (in per worker terms)

 

Y= output

C= Consumption

I= Investment

 

2. CONSUMPTION AND SAVINGS FUNCTION C = (1-s) Y => c = (1-s) y (lower case means we're breaking it down to an individual worker)

 

saving = s y

 

3. EQUILIBRIUM: y – c = s y = s f(k) = i

 

Assume a fraction (δ) of capital depreciates every period.

 

Income per person: y = f(k)

 

Consumption per person: c = (1–s) f(k)

 

You want to get to something called a steady state

 

If investment is just enough to cover depreciation

 

Δk = sf(k) – δk

 

sf(k) = δk 

 

then Δk = 0 (steady state)

 

Different s values lead to different steady states.

 

The “best” steady state has highest possibleconsumption per person: c* = (1–s) f(k*)

 

 An increase in s

• leads to higher k* and y* , which may raise c*

• reduces consumption’s share of income (1–s),which may lower c*

 

You can do some calc magic (funk typing all that out) and the best steady state is where MPK (marginal product of capital=depreciation (lowercase delta))

 

Now lets assume that the population and labor force grow at rate n. (n is exogenous)

 

ΔL/L = n Then: (δ+ n) k = break-even investment

 

 δk : to replace capital as it wears out

 

nk : to equip new workers with capital

 

Δk = s f(k) - (δ +n)k

 

An increase in n leads to a lower steady-state k.

 

What his means is countries with higher population growth rates will have lower levels k and y in the long run.

 

The maximized consumption with the new labor variable is MPK=δ +n. So now you have to also keep the worker occupied AND maintain depreciation to break even. 

 

 

The only thing you can do to drop n outside of not letting them in is to not employ them (which is what tends to happen) then they lower your consumption by living off welfare

 

They're not wrong to blame immigrants at all.

 

That being said, I'm not a brit, do what you think is best for your country 

[EHN.]

"Mass" immigration is a very exaggerated issue. It's the primary focus of eurosceptics that try to convince people to leave the EU, most of it being throwing around of statistics and using outright lies to scare people and make them forget about the benefits of remaining in the EU, and somehow its actually working. 

[cr47t]

I'm for in because, frankly, the last thing we need in the age of such pandemonium in the US's politics is more shakeups in other major countries.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

"Mass" immigration is a very exaggerated issue. It's the primary focus of eurosceptics that try to convince people to leave the EU, most of it being throwing around of statistics and using outright lies to scare people and make them forget about the benefits of remaining in the EU, and somehow its actually working. 

Well my point holds for any net positive immigration 

 

The only "good" immigration is one for specialized skilled labor in need

more shakeups in other major countries.

I thought you were a progressive liberal supporting Bernie lol

[cr47t]

I thought you were a progressive liberal supporting Bernie lol

I actually consider myself a moderate-ish left-leaner supporting Bernie but yeah.

 

I guess I wasn't clear enough when I said major shakeups, but I don't really know yet a better way to describe what I meant... I always thought I sucked at words.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Right Leaning Shake Ups?

 

Might as well call it what it is

[cr47t]

Right Leaning Shake Ups?

 

Might as well call it what it is

This isn't just a right leaning push, it's a radical right push, and I usually am not one for people or things on the radical sides of the scale

[Zauls]

Having children also increases the labour force, are we gonna stop people reproducing now as well?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Having children also increases the labour force, are we gonna stop people reproducing now as well?

Birthrates have dropped yes. People might not understand economics, but they certainly feel it

This isn't just a right leaning push, it's a radical right push, and I usually am not one for people or things on the radical sides of the scale

And Bernie isn't radical?

 

The thing here is it's not even political outside of the fact that the right is pushing it. It's simple economics, immigrants that don't have skills needed in the economy are detrimental.

 

Whether Brexit will solve that issue is a different question

[cr47t]

And Bernie isn't radical?

Well... yeah, at least he has a message I can believe in.

[Zauls]

Birthrates have dropped yes. People might not understand economics, but they certainly feel it

And Bernie isn't radical?

 

The thing here is it's not even political outside of the fact that the right is pushing it. It's simple economics, immigrants that don't have skills needed in the economy are detrimental.

 

Whether Brexit will solve that issue is a different question

 

I don't think you understood my point, but anyway. You can't accuse me of not understanding economics, considering I have an A-Level and half a degree in it and I can say from an standpoint of non-neoclassical economics, immigration is a net benefit to the UK.

 

Also, a side note, Bernie Sanders is the least radical of all the candidates this campaign, he is closest to the centre-ground.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I don't think you understood my point, but anyway. You can't accuse me of not understanding economics, considering I have an A-Level and half a degree in it and I can say from an standpoint of non-neoclassical economics, immigration is a net benefit to the UK.

 

Also, a side note, Bernie Sanders is the least radical of all the candidates this campaign, he is closest to the centre-ground.

Not you, I'm talking the average UK/US citizen...or for that matter the avg college student 

 

If you're trying to make the point that having children increases the labor force, that's a fair point, but people are also dying. So the question becomes, is a UK educated child more fit for the labor market or is a immigrant more fit. If the immigrant is favored, yes, people should stop having as many children

 

Sorry didn't mean to offend you.

 

Bernie not being radical...reasoning on that?

[Zauls]

 

Not you, I'm talking the average UK/US citizen...or for that matter the avg college student 

 

If you're trying to make the point that having children increases the labor force, that's a fair point, but people are also dying. So the question becomes, is a UK educated child more fit for the labor market or is a immigrant more fit. If the immigrant is favored, yes, people should stop having as many children

 

Sorry didn't mean to offend you.

 

Bernie not being radical...reasoning on that?

 

 

Honestly, it was more a tongue-in-cheek rhetorical question to ridicule your point on immigration and the fact you would even seriously consider stopping people making the life choice of having a child for the sake of apparent minor economic benefits shown only by a simplified model shows your views are non-empathetic at best and sociopathic at worst. This is generally the problem I have with right-wing economic views, they know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

 

As far as Bernie is concerned, it is shown on the political compass that he is pretty damn close to the centre of left-right and exactly on the centre of authoritarian-libertarian. The Republican candidates are all pretty much the same, about as right-authoritarian as it gets, Hilary is basically Republican-lite.

 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Hmm, I kinda want the details on how they calculate all that. If Hillary is conservative, I must be off the chart lol

 

I also honestly think the price is the value at the end of the day, but feel free to disagree with me on that

[Aerion Brightflame]

It's because America is fairly right shifted anyway I would imagine. Has been since Regan (Who despite being the bannerman for Republicans would likely run as a Democrat today) To the extent that in order for the Republicans to have a distinct identity they had to appeal to the extreme right loonies (And allowed the Tea party to take over I think), and that basically undermined the party and lead to Trump being the viable option. 

 

I've said it before, but Sanders is only really liberal by US standards - But those same standards would label most conservative parties in Europe say as being liberal.