Yu-Gi-Oh! Rulings Questions

[darkwolf777]

The only thing that matters is the order, and for "and" effects it actually doesn't matter because you need to do both otherwise you can't use the effect. Cards like Gogogo Ghost say "then" in which B needs A to happen otherwise you can't do B. In which case if you reversed the two, you would have the same problem as with Lyla which in case you can't switch, you can't do B.

 

Order does NOT matter.  You cannot activate cards if you cannot perform their effects at the time of activation, regardless of its order.  There is something different going on here.

 

We are not talking about being able to resolve, but about activating it in the first place.

[Zazubat]

Order does NOT matter.  You cannot activate cards if you cannot perform their effects at the time of activation, regardless of its order.  There is something different going on here.

This only applies for "and" in this situation.

 

EDIT: You edited it a bit, and if you need to be able to do multiple things at the point in resolution, if you can't A you can't do B. Obviously if you can't even do it at the start of activation, nothing happens.

[darkwolf777]

This only applies for "and" in this situation.

 

EDIT: You edited it a bit, and if you need to be able to do multiple things at the point in resolution, if you can't A you can't do B. Obviously if you can't even do it at the start of activation, nothing happens.

 

Again, I'm talking about the right to activate.  You're still ignoring that.

[Zazubat]

Again, I'm talking about the right to activate.  You're still ignoring that.

not even, like at all. Did you even read what I said? "Obviously if you can't even do it at the start of activation, nothing happens."

If you can't activate the effect at the start, you can't do anything, unless it's also, in which case if you can do B, but not A you can still do B.

[darkwolf777]

Which has nothing to do at all with anything I've said so far.  Please, Zaziuma, just stop.  Its not "nothing happens", its "you cannot activate it in the first place".

[Zazubat]

Which has nothing to do at all with anything I've said so far.  Please, Zaziuma, just stop.  Its not "nothing happens", its "you cannot activate it in the first place".

Isn't that basicly what I'm saying? Why do you argue with something that is the same thing? If you can't active it, nothing happens. That's what I'm saying, but I'm just making sure you understand that if you can do certain things at the start, that doesn't mean you may be able to do them at resolution.

[Miror B]

Isn't that basicly what I'm saying? Why do you argue with something that is the same thing? If you can't active it, nothing happens. That's what I'm saying, but I'm just making sure you understand that if you can do certain things at the start, that doesn't mean you may be able to do them at resolution.

That's not the situation at all though.

Ghost is summoned in DEF position. Thus it can't go to DEF position. Yet it activates anyway. That's what Darkwolf doesn't like about the scenario.

[darkwolf777]

Isn't that basicly what I'm saying? Why do you argue with something that is the same thing? If you can't active it, nothing happens. That's what I'm saying, but I'm just making sure you understand that if you can do certain things at the start, that doesn't mean you may be able to do them at resolution.

 

By saying "nothing happens" you imply that it could still be activated, yet nothing would happen when resolving, which is not correct.  When you quote my "Lyla" text, it shows you aren't on the same page as I am.

 

Its the most basic rule of Yugioh:  If you cannot perform the effects of a card, then the card's effect cannot be activated in the first place.  If it can, then there's a reason for it, which for Goblindbergh and the like I have not quite figured out.  If a card like Gogogo Ghost is Special Summoned in Defense Position, and since its effect asks for it change it to Defense Position, since you cannot apply that effect since its already in Defense Position, the idea is that you cannot activate it at all because you cannot perform that effect, but it is allowed and that's where the issue is.

 

Please don't try to tell me what I do or do not understand, because I know what I understand, and when what I understand comes with conflicts with new types of cards, then its my business to sort it out and figure why this card is different than other cards, and when I know what you're telling me is far off the point, you reiterating those incorrect points isn't getting anywhere and shows you don't understand what I'm getting at.  Goblindbergh/Gogogo Ghost/etc are different.  Saying ", then" in itself wouldn't make a difference.

 

Only Goblindbergh's text seems to make changing it to Defense position not something that would be necessary to check for at activation since it comes with its own condition of "If you activated this effect", which in its own way would mean that at activation, it is not known whether or not "if you activated this effect" would ring true until it resolves, but even that's a stretch.

[Zazubat]

By saying "nothing happens" you imply that it could still be activated, yet nothing would happen when resolving, which is not correct.  When you quote my "Lyla" text, it shows you aren't on the same page as I am.

 

Its the most basic rule of Yugioh:  If you cannot perform the effects of a card, then the card's effect cannot be activated in the first place.  If it can, then there's a reason for it, which for Goblindbergh and the like I have not quite figured out.

 

Please don't try to tell me what I do or do not understand, because I know what I understand, and when what I understand comes with conflicts, then its my business to sort it out, and when I know what you're telling me is far off the point, accept that it is.  Goblindbergh/Gogogo Ghost/etc are different.  Saying ", then" in itself wouldn't make a difference.

 

Only Goblindbergh's text seems to make changing it to Defense position not something that would be necessary to check for at activation since it comes with its own condition of "If you activated this effect", which in its own way would mean that at activation, it is not known whether or not "if you activated this effect" would ring true until it resolves, but even that's a stretch.

Look look, I know you may think I didn't understand you meant "at activation", but I was just typing it different than how you would type it.

[darkwolf777]

If you write it different, you run the risk of it being wrong =/  Yugioh's lore is very specific and even one word can change a meaning entirely, which i'm sure you've seen.  You don't get much leeway to use different terms/phrases since in many cases it will not mean the same thing.

 

Well, I'm sorry either way, I shouldn't be so aggressive about it.

[Zazubat]

If you write it different, you run the risk of it being wrong =/  Yugioh's lore is very specific and even one word can change a meaning entirely, which i'm sure you've seen.  You don't get much leeway to use different terms/phrases since in many cases it will not mean the same thing.

saying "nothing happens" instead of "cannot activate" is my fault, and I can see why you would think I meant something different, and I will try to use the terms I actually mean next time. As for about Goblindbergh, I don't think it matters at all that Goblindergh says "if you activated this effect", but right not I can't see the PSCT site, so it will be hard to confirm that.

Its the most basic rule of Yugioh: If you cannot perform the effects of a card, then the card's effect cannot be activated in the first place. If it can, then there's a reason for it, which for Goblindbergh and the like I have not quite figured out. If a card like Gogogo Ghost is Special Summoned in Defense Position, and since its effect asks for it change it to Defense Position, since you cannot apply that effect since its already in Defense Position, the idea is that you cannot activate it at all because you cannot perform that effect, but it is allowed and that's where the issue is.

 

I found this little piece on the wikia: "You cannot activate a card effect that its condition didn't meet, knowing that it cannot resolve properly."

 

What this would mean is that if you know you can't change it to Defense Position, then you can't activate it's effect. Though if it's changed in the middle of resolution by an other effect then everything that can resolve will resolve (in the proper order, being A if possible and then B if possible). You cannot SS Gogogo Ghost in face-up Defense Position and activate it's effect because it needs to change for it to activate, and unless it was changed at resolution it won't be able to resolve. The only reason why it would be right that Gogogo Ghost can activate it's effect if Special Summoned in face-up Defense Position is either if that infomation was talking about it being in face-up Defense Position because it was changed during the resolution of an other card, or that the infomation is wrong about how you need to know that you need to be able to change it to Defense Position at the start of activation.

[Mysty]

Maybe the fact that Lyla says "Attack Position" and these don't is the reason why. Maybe the game state thinks you can change a Defense Position monster to Defense Position, and so you can activate the effect.
Maybe the article about the word "then" is itself rather worded badly.

[Aix]

Could you stop Blackship of Corn if you chained Forbidden Lance to his effect and lowered his ATK or if you chained some ATK increasing card to your monster?

[Zazubat]

Maybe the fact that Lyla says "Attack Position" and these don't is the reason why. Maybe the game state thinks you can change a Defense Position monster to Defense Position, and so you can activate the effect.

Maybe the article about the word "then" is itself rather worded badly.

So far the Attack Position thing is the only thing that would make sense, as cards like Gogogo Ghost don't speficy.

 

Could you stop Blackship of Corn if you chained Forbidden Lance to his effect and lowered his ATK or if you chained some ATK increasing card to your monster?

lowering Blackships ATK, no. Why? Your ATK doesn't need to be the same at resolution, only the targets. If you changed the targets ATK, then it would not be ATK it had when targeted so it's not a valid target anymore.

 

EDIT: I don't know if it matters that it's not a specific ATK value, maybe if it's still below the ATK of Blackship it will work.

[ihop]

Could you stop Blackship of Corn if you chained Forbidden Lance to his effect and lowered his ATK or if you chained some ATK increasing card to your monster?

 

No, the effect says to target a monster with less ATK and once it's been targeted it doesn't matter what attack it has. It's similar to chaining something like Forbidden Chalice to Chain Disappearance.

[darkwolf777]

You cannot SS Gogogo Ghost in face-up Defense Position and activate it's effect because it needs to change for it to activate, and unless it was changed at resolution it won't be able to resolve. The only reason why it would be right that Gogogo Ghost can activate it's effect if Special Summoned in face-up Defense Position is either if that infomation was talking about it being in face-up Defense Position because it was changed during the resolution of an other card, or that the infomation is wrong about how you need to know that you need to be able to change it to Defense Position at the start of activation.

 

The whole problem with this situation is that the OCG ruled that it can still activate the effect if Special Summoned in Defense Position.  No one's talking about its position being changed after it activated its effect.  I understand that situation.  This is not it.

 

 

Could you stop Blackship of Corn if you chained Forbidden Lance to his effect and lowered his ATK or if you chained some ATK increasing card to your monster?

 

 

 

No.  Blackship of Corn's effect will still work regardless of what the ATK values are after targeting.  The resolution of the effect does not refer to it as the "target" and therefore the target does not need to stay within its targeting parameters during resolution.

[Aix]

But what about Dark World Lightning and Marksman then? They target a Set Card, but if that card is no longer set, it is not destroyed.

[darkwolf777]

But what about Dark World Lightning and Marksman then? They target a Set Card, but if that card is no longer set, it is not destroyed.

 

Dark World Lightning: Target 1 face-down card on the field; destroy that target, then discard 1 card.

 

Atlantean Marksman: Target 1 Set card your opponent controls; destroy that target.

 

They specifically refer to the "target".  The targeting conditions must still be correct at resolution to resolve properly.  Blackship of Corn does not refer to its "target" in the effect.

[Cute Rotten Yoshika]

But what about Dark World Lightning and Marksman then? They target a Set Card, but if that card is no longer set, it is not destroyed.

 

because the card they destroy must still be a valid target at resolution. blackship is worded differently since it doesnt mention the target after activation and therefore only needs to meet the requirements at activation.

[Zazubat]

Oh, that's right, Blackship referes to it's target as it, so yes Wolf is right here, about the others, as said they still call the card a target, so it still needs to be that correct target.

The whole problem with this situation is that the OCG ruled that it can still activate the effect if Special Summoned in Defense Position. No one's talking about its position being changed after it activated its effect. I understand that situation. This is not it.

You can't even attempt to activate it if you know that you can't change it to Defense Position. If that doesn't apply to the OCG, then that means there's a difference between TCG and OCG.

[Miror B]

Oh, that's right, Blackship referes to it's target as it, so yes Wolf is right here, about the others, as said they still call the card a target, so it still needs to be that correct target.

You can't even attempt to activate it if you know that you can't change it to Defense Position. If that doesn't apply to the OCG, then that means there's a difference between TCG and OCG.

The OCG ruling is the whole issue here though.

Also I haven't seen any TCG rulings, meaning that OCG rules apply unless you can find a place where a TCG ruling exists.

 

Here's a thread basically re-iterating everything in here 

http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=1092978

[Zazubat]

The OCG ruling is the whole issue here though.

Also I haven't seen any TCG rulings, meaning that OCG rules apply unless you can find a place where a TCG ruling exists.

I havn't been able to yet sadly, both in rulebooks, and on the wikia. But I'll keep looking till I find something that says something about it.

 

I found this: http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/index.php?/topic/46496-gogogo-ghost-and-gogogo-giant/

 

An other confirm, but havn't been able to find the Gogogo Giant ruling yet.

 

EDIT: Have been reading your Pojo post, and it still doesn't make much sense to me, it really seems like it's an other BKSS :/

[Miror B]

EDIT: Have been reading your Pojo post, and it still doesn't make much sense to me, it really seems like it's an other BKSS :/

And now you understand why Darkwolf is having issues and trying to justify the ruling.

[Zazubat]

And now you understand why Darkwolf is having issues and trying to justify the ruling.

Yes, but following the activation rules this shouldn't even be a possible scenario!

[Miror B]

Yes, but following the activation rules this shouldn't even be a possible scenario!

But it's ruling says it is so the only thing we can do is figure out why or deal with it.