Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 But I said that already. I even gave an example of not being able to pay the cost for Black Luster Soldier when Jowgen is on he field, but they just make the "it says face-up" excuse. Whatever, I'll be replacing it with Fossil Dyna anyways. Maybe then they will get it. EDIT: Also, 2 of the guys disagreeing with me didn't know that T-King can only negate inherent summons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Whenever an effect states you cannot perform an action, you cannot activate any effects or take any steps towards performing the action, even if those steps remove the source of the effect. You are forbidden from even trying. I like to think of it in terms of a step-by-step process, like in the video games. You have the monsters, including Jowgen out. You want to try to Synchro/Xyz Summon. The very first thing you look at is "Am I allowed to perform this kind of Summon"? This questioning immediately hits the answer: No, because Jowgen is faceup. Players cannot Special Summon. You don't even check whether you have proper Materials first, or what monster you may wish to Summon. You first have to check "Am I even allowed to perform a Summon right now?". (You check this first because until you can confirm the move is legal, which Materials you plan to use is irrelevent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazubat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 You don't even check whether you have proper Materials first, or what monster you may wish to Summon. You first have to check "Am I even allowed to perform a Summon right now?". (You check this first because until you can confirm the move is legal, which Materials you plan to use is irrelevent).I just want to add, checking if you are allowed is not a step, unless it's stated by an other card effect that you need specific cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 If D.D. Warrior Lady's being targeted by Fiendish Chain and is destroyed by battle, can its effect be used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 I just want to add, checking if you are allowed is not a step, unless it's stated by an other card effect that you need specific cards. I...wasn't referring to actual card-effect related "steps". I'm referring to the LOGIC a player is supposed to take when attempting to perform a Summon in the first place. If you're prevented from SSing, you cannot even consider Synchro or Xyz Summoning as a legal option. Therefore, whether you intend to use Jowgen as a Material or not is irrelevent: You outright cannot consider doing it. If D.D. Warrior Lady's being targeted by Fiendish Chain and is destroyed by battle, can its effect be used? No. DD Warrior Lady is still faceup on the Field when it has been destroyed by battle and its effect would activate. It has the same timing a Flip Effect monster has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazubat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 I...wasn't referring to actual card-effect related "steps". I'm referring to the LOGIC a player is supposed to take when attempting to perform a Summon in the first place. If you're prevented from SSing, you cannot even consider Synchro or Xyz Summoning as a legal option. Therefore, whether you intend to use Jowgen as a Material or not is irrelevent: You outright cannot consider doing it.No. DD Warrior Lady is still faceup on the Field when it has been destroyed by battle and its effect would activate. It has the same timing a Flip Effect monster has.I wasn't really refering to what you said, just a general little "you shouldn't think this" about it. Anyways, as Evil says, no monsters that don't say where they activate their effects are always on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 I think that it almost gets away with it saying that Fiendish Chain is destroyed when the monster is destroyed, but because that effect won't finish resolving until after the monster leaves the field it's not going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 I think that it almost gets away with it saying that Fiendish Chain is destroyed when the monster is destroyed, but because that effect won't finish resolving until after the monster leaves the field it's not going to work. Fiendish Chain isnt destroyed until the destroyed monster physically leaves the Field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Well, there's no official ruling for Dyna, Jowgen, or Acid Golem in regards to this, so I guess I'm F'd =/http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Lava_golem_vs_archlord_kristyaWiki. Good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Fiendish Chain isnt destroyed until the destroyed monster physically leaves the Field.That's what I said. Though I do admit I said it overly-complicatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 That's what I said. Though I do admit I said it overly-complicatedly. Pretty much: the "rulebook" is really basically just a 'how to play the game' book and all the rules are found on various websites and other sources. Yugioh really does need a comprehensive rulebook - similar to MtG - stating every ruling either directly or indirectly, and updated every time something completely new pops up.It also wouldn't hurt if they had an Oracle-like system with updated correct text for all cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Didn't they say that they were working on a comprehensive list of basic rulings? I believe that was in their "three step improvement plan", alongside the improved OCG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Not much to do when people make collective rulings you know are wrong.Except bet against them. Usually I bet something like a Fiendish Chain vs. the other person's soul. If my opponent controls an applied Angel O7 and my Heroic Challenger - Extra Sword is used for the Xyz Summon of my Gagagigo the Risen, can my opponent use Fiendish Chain on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Not much to do when people make collective rulings you know are wrong.Except bet against them. Usually I bet something like a Fiendish Chain vs. the other person's soul. If my opponent controls an applied Angel O7 and my Heroic Challenger - Extra Sword is used for the Xyz Summon of my Gagagigo the Risen, can my opponent use Fiendish Chain on it? Gaining 1000 ATK is not any sort of effect. It also doesn't make Gagagigo the Risen into an Effect Monster. No, you cannot use Fiendish Chain on it. Misread on the effect of Extra Sword on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Gaining 1000 ATK is not any sort of effect. It also doesn't make Gagagigo the Risen into an Effect Monster. No, you cannot use Fiendish Chain on it. Are you sure? An Xyz Monster that was Summoned using this card as Xyz Material gains this effect.● When it is Xyz Summoned: It gains 1000 ATK. Rulings page of Extra Sword: The effect after the "•" is treated as an effect of the Xyz Monster that used this card as an Xyz Material that activates upon the successful Xyz Summon. And, apparently, according to the rulings on Gagaga Girl (which has the exact same wording) If "Gagaga Girl" is used with another "Gagaga" monster as Xyz Material for the Xyz Summon of "Gem-Knight Pearl", then "Gem-Knight Pearl" is treated as an Effect Monster and it can activate the effect given by the effect of "Gagaga Girl". Furthermore, when Gem-Knight Pearl is Xyz Summoned, Divine Wrath, etc, can be chained to its effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazubat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 I would say the same as Mysty here, since it gains an effect he should be able to. Angel 07 has nothing to say about this, it's an activated effect, though it's still counts as an effect since Heroic Challenger - Extra Sword says that it gains an effect. Wait, actually I think I might be wrong. Gaining an effect doesn't make it an effect monster, only cards that say that they become effect monster, Gemini Monsters are the best example, will make it one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Sorry, I didn't read the part of it that said "gains the following effect", otherwise I wouldn't have answered it as such. You're right, Mysty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazubat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Ah it seems that a monster becomes an effect monster when it gains an effect, I thought it didn't, since other cards state that it becomes an effect monster. I suppose you learn something every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Ah it seems that a monster becomes an effect monster when it gains an effect, I thought it didn't, since other cards state that it becomes an effect monster. I suppose you learn something every day. Geminis are the only other cards that deal with this sort of thing, and they specifically treat themselves as Normal Monsters until Gemini Summoned. The Xyz Material cards are fairly unique, and have an explicit ruling stating they become Effect Monsters. Any other card that gives or copies Effects tend to already BE Effect Monsters, so this rarely comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazubat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 When I activate Honest, if my opponent activates "DNA Transplant" in response to change the Attribute to DARK, will my monster still gain ATK equal to my opponent's monster's ATK? I would think not, because I don't think you can activate Trap Cards in the Battle Phase, unless stated otherwise. I know some can that Konami said could, though I can't find if this is one of them, and I might not be correct that you wouldn't be able to activate this card in any case. I don't really know actually, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 When I activate Honest, if my opponent activates "DNA Transplant" in response to change the Attribute to DARK, will my monster still gain ATK equal to my opponent's monster's ATK? I would think not, because I don't think you can activate Trap Cards in the Battle Phase, unless stated otherwise. I know some can that Konami said could, though I can't find if this is one of them, and I might not be correct that you wouldn't be able to activate this card in any case. I don't really know actually, haha. You cannot activate DNA Transplant during the Damage Step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazubat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 You cannot activate DNA Transplant during the Damage Step.that's what I thought. The only cards you can is Counter Traps Right? And then cards that effect the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 that's what I thought. The only cards you can is Counter Traps Right? And then cards that effect the battle.Counter Traps.Quick Monster Effects that directly negates the activation of a card or effect.Anything that alters ATK or DEF values.Trigger effects that have their timing met in the battle phase (like every single flip effect)Cards that specifically say so.BKSS rulings.Don't think I'm forgetting anything.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazubat Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 What's BKSS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 What's BKSS?Because Konami Said So.Basically any ruling that has absolutely no logic behind it but it was stated by Konami themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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