Miror B Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Oh I'm not trying to fight your answer, it's just that people didn't seem to understand where I was coming from at all (as well as saying Soul Drain negates effects when it fully well doesn't =_=) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Oh I'm not trying to fight your answer, it's just that people didn't seem to understand where I was coming from at all (as well as saying Soul Drain negates effects when it fully well doesn't =_=)Seriously, you're not getting what everyone else is saying. I was typing that at 5 in the morning and made some mistypes (saying does instead of doesn't and "negates" instead of "prevents", which you so kindly were a jerk about), but the point remains the same that it doesn't work in the situations you're talking about. No matter the wording, the result is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Seriously, you're not getting what everyone else is saying. I was typing that at 5 in the morning and made some mistypes (saying does instead of doesn't and "negates" instead of "prevents", which you so kindly were a jerk about), but the point remains the same that it doesn't work in the situations you're talking about. No matter the wording, the result is the same.You kept saying how it was negated and that the effect was on the field and made no mention about my issue, the physical card location being what I was wondering :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 You kept saying how it was negated and that the effect was on the field and made no mention about my issue, the physical card location being what I was wondering :/The card's location doesn't matter. I said that five times. The effect is what matters. I said THAT five times, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 If someone wants an explanation (seeing as Darkwolf isn't even sure), what if we consider Guaiba to be activating in the same instance that a Flip effect monster would. It's determined that it's going to the Graveyard, but it is not yet there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 If someone wants an explanation (seeing as Darkwolf isn't even sure), what if we consider Guaiba to be activating in the same instance that a Flip effect monster would. It's determined that it's going to the Graveyard, but it is not yet there.Actually it's confirmed that Guaiba activates at the same timing as Shura, just that it's triggered earlier hence why it works and Shura doesn't.Anyway Tcb on DN had trouble with this one too and he and DW agree so I can't do jack anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Actually it's confirmed that Guaiba activates at the same timing as Shura, just that it's triggered earlier hence why it works and Shura doesn't. Not sure what Shura has to do with anything. Shura has to be face-up on the field to complete the trigger of "and sent to the Graveyard". Guaiba does not have that trigger, so "destroys a monster by battle", which is Guaiba's complete trigger, is completed after Damage Calculation. It just doesn't activate until the end of the Damage Step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Not sure what Shura has to do with anything. Shura has to be face-up on the field to complete the trigger of "and sent to the Graveyard". Guaiba does not have that trigger, so "destroys a monster by battle", which is Guaiba's complete trigger, is completed after Damage Calculation. It just doesn't activate until the end of the Damage Step.I was mentioning about when it activates because Aggro made the comment that it activates before stuff gets sent to the Grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Well, Flip Effects also activate on the field. It doesn't matter where the Flip Effect monster is at the time the effect actually activates, it triggers on the field and so considers the monster to be on the field at the time of activation, similar to Guaiba. Pretty much, Trigger Effects activate where they are triggered, not necessarily where the monster is. Either way, as mentioned, the field should lose scope as to where Guaiba is since all the game would see is a "Guaiba's" effect that acitvated on the field, but no Guaiba on the field, so it doesn't care about that Guaiba anymore in relation to the effect. In any case, after thinking more about it, its get easier to say that its not affected by Soul Drain more and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Pennar Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 Random Situation: Someone uses Queen Dragun to Revive Tyrant Dragon, Do they have to Tribute a Dragon for Tyrant Dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarven King Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 Random Situation: Someone uses Queen Dragun to Revive Tyrant Dragon, Do they have to Tribute a Dragon for Tyrant Dragon? I wanna say no since it's not listed as a cost and you don't tribute until after it's summoned. By that time, Queen Dargun has negated Tyrant's effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 Random Situation: Someone uses Queen Dragun to Revive Tyrant Dragon, Do they have to Tribute a Dragon for Tyrant Dragon? Tributing a Dragon-Type Monster is a cost to Special Summon Tyrant Dragon from the Graveyard. It is always done right before the Special Summon takes place. Therefore, you would still pay the cost of Tributing a Dragon-Type monster during the resolution of Queen Dragun Djinn, before Tyrant Dragon is Special Summoned by her effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowayix Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 If you Special Summon Obelisk or Slifer while Skill Drain is out, are they sent to the Graveyard at the End Phase? For Slifer, would it also be sent to the Graveyard during the End Phase if it had been targeted by Forbidden Chalice or Effect Veiler? On a related note, would Slifer's ATK immediately become 0 if targeted by either of the above two cards? What about Ra? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Griffin Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 If Gladiator Beast Darius or Junk Synchron has its effect negated after it Summons a monster, does the Summoned monster's effect remain negated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 If you Special Summon Obelisk or Slifer while Skill Drain is out, are they sent to the Graveyard at the End Phase? For Slifer, would it also be sent to the Graveyard during the End Phase if it had been targeted by Forbidden Chalice or Effect Veiler? On a related note, would Slifer's ATK immediately become 0 if targeted by either of the above two cards? What about Ra? It doesn't matter if they were negated when they were summoned or not. The effect that destroys them is a Trigger Effect. So it will only matter during the End Phase when that Trigger Effect resolves. If Skill Drain is face-up then, then the effect will be negated and it will not send itself to the Graveyard. That depends if Forbidden Chalice/Effect Veiler is still being applied to those monsters, depending on the controller of those effects. Refer to other Chalice/Effect Veiler during the End Phase questions for more information. Slifer's ATK gain is a Continuous Effect. If negated, its ATK will return when its no longer negated. Ra's ATK Gain is granted by a Non-Continuous Effect that could only apply to itself. If Ra is negated, it will remain at 0 when it is no longer negated. If Gladiator Beast Darius or Junk Synchron has its effect negated after it Summons a monster, does the Summoned monster's effect remain negated? Gladiator Beast Darius targets the monster it summons to link it to the effect where "If Darius is removed from the field, the monster is shuffled into the Deck." Since the negation is part of the same effect sentence, Darius is also applying that negation effect so long as it targets the monster. If Darius is negated or is flipped face-down, the monster it Special Summoned will no longer be negated. Junk Synchron does not form any link to the monster it summons and therefore does not continuously target it. The negation is then part of the effect or condition of the Special Summon and is not reliant on anything else on the field. If Junk Synchron is negated, the monster it summoned is still negated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarven King Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Tributing a Dragon-Type Monster is a cost to Special Summon Tyrant Dragon from the Graveyard. It is always done right before the Special Summon takes place. Therefore, you would still pay the cost of Tributing a Dragon-Type monster during the resolution of Queen Dragun Djinn, before Tyrant Dragon is Special Summoned by her effect. How do you know it's a cost? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Griffin Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Tiras attack was negated, can see still destroy a card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 How do you know it's a cost? Just curious. Perhaps calling it a cost isn't exactly the right thing to say, but its very cost-like as it doesn't start a chain and is performed immediately before the Special Summon happens during the resolution of the card effect. Consider this: If for any reason Tyrant Dragon was Special Summoned (assuming the Special Summon happened first), but you weren't able to Tribute a Dragon-Type monster for any reason, then you did not follow through with the card's text where you MUST Tribute a Dragon-Type monster. There's no way to backtrack and somehow return Tyrant back to the hand after it was supposedly successful whole not being able to follow through with the tribute part. The only way to guarantee that you Tributed a Dragon-Type monster was to do right BEFORE Tyrant Dragon's Special Summon, not after, which is how the game handles it. Tiras attack was negated, can see still destroy a card? Considering that it has the same trigger as any Gladiator Beast monster, it must be involved in Damage Calculation to activate the effect. If the attack was negated, then it cannot activate the effect to destroy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Perhaps calling it a cost isn't exactly the right thing to say, but its very cost-like as it doesn't start a chain and is performed immediately before the Special Summon happens during the resolution of the card effect. Consider this: If for any reason Tyrant Dragon was Special Summoned (assuming the Special Summon happened first), but you weren't able to Tribute a Dragon-Type monster for any reason, then you did not follow through with the card's text where you MUST Tribute a Dragon-Type monster. There's no way to backtrack and somehow return Tyrant back to the hand after it was supposedly successful whole not being able to follow through with the tribute part. The only way to guarantee that you Tributed a Dragon-Type monster was to do right BEFORE Tyrant Dragon's Special Summon, not after, which is how the game handles it.By the wording, isn't the tributing an effect, where after it's Special Summoned, you must Tribute a monster, which can also include Tyrant Dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 By the wording, isn't the tributing an effect, where after it's Special Summoned, you must Tribute a monster, which can also include Tyrant Dragon? That still doesn't guarantee that you'd be able to perform the action which must be done. DNA Surgury comes to mind, changing the field to a type that isn't Dragon. In any case, the old Upper Deck rulings are still the correct ones: You Tribute a Dragon-Type monster when the effect that Special Summons "Tyrant Dragon" resolves, not when it activates. So if you activate "Monster Reborn" and target "Tyrant Dragon" and your opponent chains "Imperial Order" and negates "Monster Reborn" you do not Tribute a Dragon-Type monster. Likewise, if you control 1 Dragon-Type monster on the field, and activate "Monster Reborn", and your opponent chains "Ring of Destruction" to destroy your only Dragon-Type monster, you are unable to Tribute a Dragon-Type monster when "Monster Reborn" resolves and its effect disappears. In any case, the Tribute occurs before the Special Summon. You must tribute a Dragon-Type monster immediately before Tyrant Dragon would hit the field. Lastly, its not an effect. It is a condition to be able to Special Summon it from the Graveyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarven King Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 That still doesn't guarantee that you'd be able to perform the action which must be done. DNA Surgury comes to mind, changing the field to a type that isn't Dragon. In any case, the old Upper Deck rulings are still the correct ones: You Tribute a Dragon-Type monster when the effect that Special Summons "Tyrant Dragon" resolves, not when it activates. So if you activate "Monster Reborn" and target "Tyrant Dragon" and your opponent chains "Imperial Order" and negates "Monster Reborn" you do not Tribute a Dragon-Type monster. Likewise, if you control 1 Dragon-Type monster on the field, and activate "Monster Reborn", and your opponent chains "Ring of Destruction" to destroy your only Dragon-Type monster, you are unable to Tribute a Dragon-Type monster when "Monster Reborn" resolves and its effect disappears. In any case, the Tribute occurs before the Special Summon. You must tribute a Dragon-Type monster immediately before Tyrant Dragon would hit the field. I'm still slightly confused. From the wording, I wanna say you tribute AFTER it's summoned. For instance, you activate Call of the Haunted and summon Tyrant Dragon. You have no other dragons on the field, so Tyrant Dragon would tribute himself. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 I'm still slightly confused. From the wording, I wanna say you tribute AFTER it's summoned. For instance, you activate Call of the Haunted and summon Tyrant Dragon. You have no other dragons on the field, so Tyrant Dragon would tribute himself. Correct? That is incorrect. If you do not have a Dragon-Type monster on the field, you cannot target Tyrant Dragon for Call of the Haunted. If you activate "Monster Reborn" to Special Summon your opponent’s "Tyrant Dragon" in your opponent’s Graveyard, you must still Tribute a Dragon-Type monster from your side of the field. If you do not control a Dragon-Type monster, you cannot select "Tyrant Dragon" as a target for "Monster Reborn". The same applies to you Special Summoning your own Tyrant Dragon. As I mentioned, the only way you can 100% guarantee that you satisfy the "YOU MUST" condition of the Special Summoning is to do it before the Special Summoning takes place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarven King Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 That is incorrect. If you do not have a Dragon-Type monster on the field, you cannot target Tyrant Dragon for Call of the Haunted. If you activate "Monster Reborn" to Special Summon your opponent’s "Tyrant Dragon" in your opponent’s Graveyard, you must still Tribute a Dragon-Type monster from your side of the field. If you do not control a Dragon-Type monster, you cannot select "Tyrant Dragon" as a target for "Monster Reborn". The same applies to you Special Summoning your own Tyrant Dragon. As I mentioned, the only way you can 100% guarantee that you satisfy the "YOU MUST" condition of the Special Summoning is to do it before the Special Summoning takes place. Well that puts a new light on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 "Ifs" and "Whens" can be either a Trigger Effect or a Condition. Its not really easy to discern with older cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Does Digvorzhak's effect fall under the "unsure if it will destroy a card" clause for Stardust Dragon? Also, does Shooting Star Dragon have a similar ruling? They are worded differently, and there's no mention, so I'm unsure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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