Blake Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Why does Wattsquirrel specifically state it even negates stuff it battles with while they're in the Grave... But AoJ Nullifier doesn't need to state that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 What effects of the Ritual Djinns can be negated by what cards? Nothing at all. The Ritual Djinns are all Conditions. Conditions cannot be negated. They do not activate, so they don't start a chain, and they leave an "imprint" on the Ritual monster itself. The Ritual doesn't gain an effect from the Djinns, instead the effect is active while that Ritual is faceup. The only way then to remove the Djinn effects is to get rid of the Ritual (or flip it facedown) or prevent the Ritual Summon entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Nothing at all. The Ritual Djinns are all Conditions. Conditions cannot be negated. They do not activate, so they don't start a chain, and they leave an "imprint" on the Ritual monster itself. The Ritual doesn't gain an effect from the Djinns, instead the effect is active while that Ritual is faceup. The only way then to remove the Djinn effects is to get rid of the Ritual (or flip it facedown) or prevent the Ritual Summon entirely.Actually I've read that Grapha's Summon Conditions are also negated by cards like Revived Ruler Ha Des. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Actually I've read that Grapha's Summon Conditions are also negated by cards like Revived Ruler Ha Des. Interesting...Wiki has that under the OCG ruling. Okay, I looked into Conditions a bit more. http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Condition So while Djinn and Grapha ARE Conditions, they're the negatable Type of Condition. Evidently, yes, using Ha Des to destroy a Djinn in battle will remove the effect that enables it to be used in a Ritual Summon (from the Graveyard). And with that known, since you can't Ritual Summon by any means using the Graveyard (yet), it doesn't matter whether it'd also negate the effect it'd grant a Ritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Interesting...Wiki has that under the OCG ruling. Okay, I looked into Conditions a bit more. http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Condition So while Djinn and Grapha ARE Conditions, they're the negatable Type of Condition. Evidently, yes, using Ha Des to destroy a Djinn in battle will remove the effect that enables it to be used in a Ritual Summon (from the Graveyard). And with that known, since you can't Ritual Summon by any means using the Graveyard (yet), it doesn't matter whether it'd also negate the effect it'd grant a Ritual. Summon Conditions cannot be negated. Summoning Conditions are not effect, which is what Grapha negates. You can still summon Grapha or Machina Fortress for example even if destroyed by Ha Des. Djinn's effects that allow them to be used as a Ritual Material by removing them from the Graveyard is a Continuous Effect. If negated, it cannot be applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Summon Conditions cannot be negated. Summoning Conditions are not effect, which is what Grapha negates. You can still summon Grapha or Machina Fortress for example even if destroyed by Ha Des. Djinn's effects that allow them to be used as a Ritual Material by removing them from the Graveyard is a Continuous Effect. If negated, it cannot be applied. Oddly, that contradicts the OCG ruling on Grapha (according to Wiki). But the Djinn thing makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Oddly, that contradicts the OCG ruling on Grapha (according to Wiki). But the Djinn thing makes sense. Then that'd be quite odd considering what is known about Summon Conditions, unless perhaps we are simply assuming this. They are not effects, at least to my knowledge. Having "negatable conditions" is not normally something to think about as when a card says to "negate the effects", conditions are generally not effects. Perhaps I'm misclassifying Djinns as well, considering what we think about Continuous Effects are something that's applied on the field, not necessarily something applied in the Graveyard. Then again, there are plenty of effects that aren't considered to have a type yet are still effects, which might explain the Djinns, but not Grapha o.x I can't really test any Ha Des vs Machina Fortress/Grapha shenanigans in 2011 at this time to just get an idea as to how it handles it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 And the existence of that ruling on Wiki will also make it somewhat difficult to ever rule on with certainty. Maybe there's a source or an OCG link that'll definitely confirm. Thing is, I'd expect an effect that is negatable by Ha Des in the Graveyard to be something that "activates", like Sinister Serpent. But if the Djinns can be negated, then that throws out that distinction. On the bright side, such a situation is unlikely to ever occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Well, the Djinns are something you apply when the timing is correct, and it would make sense if it can't be applied if it had no effect. There should be a line as to what's considered "a Condition, which is not an effect", and "An uncategorized effect, which is an effect, but not belonging to any of the declared types of Igntion, Quick, Trigger, and Continuous". Perhaps I don't know enough to know where all those lines cross without further looking into it. To my knowledge, Summon Conditions are not effects, unless Summon Conditions are now a part of that "uncategorized effect" for whatever reason, I see no reason why Ha Des would stop it. Just when you think you have a good look at the game, something new comes up and throws it out of proportion o.x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Berserker- Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I'm lovin' it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Why does Wattsquirrel specifically state it even negates stuff it battles with while they're in the Grave... But AoJ Nullifier doesn't need to state that?Just curious, because it almost cost me a game in WC11 when Nullifier ran over Kushano @_@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDDRodrigo Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Ally of Justice Nullfier is part of an older set of wordings. In Duelist Revolution they made a slight change in wording (nothing compared to the revoltion that started on SD 11), so that can explain the lack of explaining effect on Nullfier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synchronized Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Couple of questions: - Can you activate "Dicephoon" if your opponent only has 1 Spell/Trap card face-down? - A/D Changer can change a face-down Defense Position monster to face-up Attack Position with its effect, right? - If you flip a monster face-up with Book of Taiyou, then flip it down with Book of Moon, can you manually flip it back up if it wasn't actually set on that turn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Couple of questions: - Can you activate "Dicephoon" if your opponent only has 1 Spell/Trap card face-down? - A/D Changer can change a face-down Defense Position monster to face-up Attack Position with its effect, right? - If you flip a monster face-up with Book of Taiyou, then flip it down with Book of Moon, can you manually flip it back up if it wasn't actually set on that turn? 1) Yes, but if you get the result that would destroy exactly 2, nothing gets destroyed. 2) Yes. Since it does not specify the monster must be faceup (or the position it must be in) a facedown DEF monster is a valid target. 3) Yes. Taiyou and Moon are not manual Battle Position changes. You may still perform your usual "once per turn" manual Battle Position change if normally allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-so-Radiant Arin Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Jurrac Dino is affected by Forbidden Chalice. What happens during the End Phase? I think it's still negated, but I wanted a clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Jurrac Dino is affected by Forbidden Chalice. What happens during the End Phase? I think it's still negated, but I wanted a clarification. The same as Effect Veiler vs Lightsworns. During the End Phase, Turn Player can choose whether to activate Dino's effect (and it'll be negated) or pass priority to the opponent so he can resolve his End Phase effects. The opponent can then choose to resolve his effects (removing the negation) or pass priority back, and FORCE the Turn Player to resolve his effects. So pretty much, the controller of Chalice/Veiler decides whether the effect is negated or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shizuku Oikawa Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Can R/G/Y Gadget's effect activate during the Damage Step? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Can R/G/Y Gadget's effect activate during the Damage Step? This is one of those little details that drive me crazy. Strictly speaking, a Gadget is not one of the types of Effects that can activate during the Damage Step, but nearly everyone uses it that way. The same has bothered me about other "When Summoned" Trigger Effects that could occur during Damage Step (Stratos if SSed by Hero Signal or Voltic). But again, it's pretty much always used even if it's not mandatory. Wiki currently claims that Upperdeck made the ruling that if you SS a Gadget by Giant Rat, its effect can still be used. Since that occurs during the Damage Step, I'm going to tentatively state that "Yes, you can use those sort of Trigger Effects during the Damage Step". If there's a logic behind this ruling, I hope darkwolf can explain it to me, because I can't seem to find it, but none of the cards seem to have a ruling directly stating that they CANT activate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welche the crab Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 How does Shi En work against Inzektor Hornet? How does Shien work against Inzektor Hornet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkwolf777 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 How does Shi En work against Inzektor Hornet? How does Shien work against Inzektor Hornet? It doesn't. When activating Hornet's destruction effect, you're activating the effect of an Equip Spell Card, not the activation of a card. Shi En can't negate the effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welche the crab Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I really meant in relation to the "activation" of Hornet when it is equipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I really meant in relation to the "activation" of Hornet when it is equipped. Hornet is never activated. Its equipment is part of the resolution of a different effect, which cannot be negated because of the fact it has already resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I really meant in relation to the "activation" of Hornet when it is equipped. It is the same. It is an effect activating, not a card. Shi En only negates the activation of a Spell or Trap CARD. Think Solemn Warning vs Fusion Gate. Warning can't stop Fusion Gate's effect to Fusion Summon because the player is activating the effect of Fusion Gate, not activating the card Fusion Gate. (Which Warning cant stop since it doesnt SS at initial activation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welche the crab Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 So Shien also has no effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Shogun is the same. It only prevents a player from activating more than 1 Spell or Trap CARD per turn. You can activate the EFFECT of an already active Spell or Trap as many times as you'd like (Ultimate Offering, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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