Resident Fascist Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Can Shi en Save itself from dark hole by destroying another Six Samurai I control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoon Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Maybe I'm stupid for asking this, but... I Normal Summon Tour Guide From the Underworld and use her effect to Special Summon Possessed Dark Soul... can I use Possessed Dark Soul's effect? I mean, it should be the same as Stardust Dragon not being affected by Skill Drain because he tributes himself as a cost and the effect resolves in the Graveyard... or did I mix something up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zektor Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 When Forgotten Temple of the Deep is on the field is it affected by Field Barrier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Can you bounce a token to use the effect of Birdman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sage Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Maybe I'm stupid for asking this, but... I Normal Summon Tour Guide From the Underworld and use her effect to Special Summon Possessed Dark Soul... can I use Possessed Dark Soul's effect? I mean, it should be the same as Stardust Dragon not being affected by Skill Drain because he tributes himself as a cost and the effect resolves in the Graveyard... or did I mix something up?No. Tour Guide negates Possessed Dark Soul's effect when it's summoned, and therefore cannot activate the effect as it can't specifically tribute itself in response to the negation of the effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoon Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 When Forgotten Temple of the Deep is on the field is it affected by Field Barrier?Is it a Field Spell? No, it's not affected. It just got a new fancy name, that's all.Can you bounce a token to use the effect of Birdman?Returning a monster to your hand is a cost, so you cannot use Tokens for that (they can't exist in the hand).No. Tour Guide negates Possessed Dark Soul's effect when it's summoned, and therefore cannot activate the effect as it can't specifically tribute itself in response to the negation of the effect.The interwebz (read: Pojo) seem to confirm this, though I seriously don't get it... could somebody explain it to me more detailed, what's so different between Stardust Dragon and Possessed Dark Soul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Fascist Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 (read: Pojo) ITT: Pojo is a valid source of information. The folks there only seem to discuss 1 card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 No. Tour Guide negates Possessed Dark Soul's effect when it's summoned, and therefore cannot activate the effect as it can't specifically tribute itself in response to the negation of the effect.You're right for the wrong reason. PDS would be unaffected by Skill Drain because Skill Drain specifies "Face-Up monsters". Tour Guide just says "it's effect is negated." You can still tribute it for its effect, but it will be negated and resolve meaninglessly. The interwebz (read: Pojo) seem to confirm this, though I seriously don't get it... could somebody explain it to me more detailed, what's so different between Stardust Dragon and Possessed Dark Soul?Just saw this and let me clarify. It's not the difference between Starfag and PDS, it's the difference between Skill Drain and Tour Guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoon Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Just saw this and let me clarify. It's not the difference between Starfag and PDS, it's the difference between Skill Drain and Tour Guide.Sangan doesn't care about that either... no, I still don't get it. ... Darkwolf? :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Fascist Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 I'll ask again.... Can Shi en Save itself from dark hole by destroying another Six Samurai I control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Sangan doesn't care about that either... no, I still don't get it. The difference between PDS and Sangan is that Sangan activates in the Graveyard, after it is no longer attached to Tour Guide's effect. PDS avtivates on the field while it is still tied to Tour Guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoon Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 The difference between PDS and Sangan is that Sangan activates in the Graveyard, after it is no longer attached to Tour Guide's effect. PDS avtivates on the field while it is still tied to Tour Guide.So it activates on the field? Even though it clearly Tributes itself? Is that not a cost, but part of the effect? Edit @ Shi En question: No, it cannot.When all "Six Samurai" monsters (and "Great Shogun Shien") would be destroyed simultaneously by "Torrential Tribute"/"Dark Hole"/etc, you cannot use the substitution effect to destroy another "Six Samurai" monster.[2] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 So why is it ok to remove a token with Cyber Valley for a cost, even though a token cannot go out of play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 So it activates on the field? Even though it clearly Tributes itself? Is that not a cost, but part of the effect?No, it is a cost. Here's how costs work. Effect activates.Costs are paid.Chains can be made.Effect resolves. The effect always activates first, whether it has a cost or not. Since it is on the field when the effect activates, then it's effect would be negated. If you've ever played the WC games, then you would've noticed that when you activate a monster's effect, like PDS's, the effect animation shows before it would tribute itself, or discard a card, or whatever other cost it may have. So why is it ok to remove a token with Cyber Valley for a cost, even though a token cannot go out of play?Because you aren't "sending" or "returning" the token anywhere. You're just banishing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoon Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 So why is it ok to remove a token with Cyber Valley for a cost, even though a token cannot go out of play?Because it is no cost *click*For the second effect, you target the two monsters and remove them from play at resolution.[1][2] You can remove from play a Monster Token with the second effect of "Cyber Valley". "Cyber Valley" will be removed from play, the Monster Token will disappear, and you will draw.[3] No, it is a cost. Here's how costs work. Effect activates.But that's my problem... it doesn't negate the activation :( Ah, screw it, doesn't work, deck idea is worthless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Does Reverse Trap affect Fusilier Dragon? No. Reverse Trap only affects additions or subtractions, not multiplication or division. Can Shi en Save itself from dark hole by destroying another Six Samurai I control? No. Shi En says "instead", but at the time of destruction, your other Samurais are also going to die by the same effect, and cannot be destroyed "instead". Maybe I'm stupid for asking this, but... I Normal Summon Tour Guide From the Underworld and use her effect to Special Summon Possessed Dark Soul... can I use Possessed Dark Soul's effect? I mean, it should be the same as Stardust Dragon not being affected by Skill Drain because he tributes himself as a cost and the effect resolves in the Graveyard... or did I mix something up? You're right for the wrong reason. PDS would be unaffected by Skill Drain because Skill Drain specifies "Face-Up monsters". Tour Guide just says "it's effect is negated." You can still tribute it for its effect, but it will be negated and resolve meaninglessly. Just saw this and let me clarify. It's not the difference between Starfag and PDS, it's the difference between Skill Drain and Tour Guide. Here is the difference: Monsters that are Special Summoned by the effects of Tour Guide, Junk Synchron, Debris Dragon, Descending Lost Star, etc negate the effects that ACTIVATE or APPLY on the field. Possessed Dark Soul activates on the field, so Tour Guide will negate that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoon Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Here is the difference: Monsters that are Special Summoned by the effects of Tour Guide, Junk Synchron, Debris Dragon, Descending Lost Star, etc negate the effects that ACTIVATE or APPLY on the field. Possessed Dark Soul activates on the field, so Tour Guide will negate that effect,Aha... not that it makes sense, but this game never did, so I'll have to live with it <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 My bad, didn't check that just assumed it was a cost. Haven't looked at Valley in a while :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 So why is it ok to remove a token with Cyber Valley for a cost, even though a token cannot go out of play? Because RFGing for Valley's cost is not saying "Send a monster to the RFG Zone". You cannot send a token to a place it cannot exist in (the Graveyard/hand/deck) as a cost. You can as part of the effect, such as Compulsory Evacuation Device. You cannot bounce a token as a cost because it cannot go to the hand/deck. You cannot bounce a Synchro/Fusion to the hand as a cost because it doesn't go to the hand. You can RFG as a cost because it just tells you to RFG it, not that it goes to a specific zone. There's another distinction between "Tribute" and "Send to the Graveyard". You can Tribute a Token as a cost, but you cannot "send to Graveyard" as a cost. Aha... not that it makes sense, but this game never did, so I'll have to live with it <_< A lot of the game has to do with subtle distinctions. This is why we look forwad to the problem-solving text. Effects that simply say "That monster's effect is negated" only apply to effects that activate on the field, even if they resolve somewhere else. But Skill Drain states "faceup monsters" so if the monster is not faceup at resolution, the effect resolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Okay, here's something that's been nagging me for a long time. I've heard both sides on the Shi En Shien Spell/Trap lock being both right and wrong. Can somebody explain which it is and why you say it is that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Okay, here's something that's been nagging me for a long time. I've heard both sides on the Shi En Shien Spell/Trap lock being both right and wrong. Can somebody explain which it is and why you say it is that way? Sure thing. When you negate a card's activation, it is treated as if it was never activated. If you have a card that states "Every time a Spell Card is activated, draw 1 card", and a Spell is negated by Magic Jammer, you don't draw, because the activation did not occur. Therefore, if you are only permitted to activate one Spell/Trap a turn, and the card's activation is negated a la Shi En, you technically did not activate any Spell/Traps that turn. If Pot of Duality's activation is negated, you can then Special Summon that turn. However, cards that have a limit to their activations do know they TRIED to activate that turn, even if the activation was negated, and so can't use their effects again in that turn. That's because the restriction is a condition and not an effect. The official ruling is the Shi En/Shogun Shien lock does not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 My whole problem whith that logic is that you could use the same logic on solemn judgment/warning and say that, since your Normal Summon was negated, it was treated as if you've never Normal Summoned and thus you can Normal Summon again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airride Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 No, you still normal summon, it's just treated like it was never on the field. I believe that's a better way to put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 No, you still normal summon, it's just treated like it was never on the field. I believe that's a better way to put it.But if you negate the activation of a Normal Spell, it was never activated. Thus if you negate the Normal Summon of a monster, it was never Normal Summoned. Unless rules state you get 1 Normal Summon ATTEMPT, then I can see how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airride Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 I believe that's how it is...I'm confused now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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