Yu-Gi-Oh! Rulings Questions

[-Berserker-]

If Skill Drain is activated while a gemini monster is on the field, then does the monster loses it's effect of being treated as a normal monster?

Skill drain says it negates the effects of "effect monsters", not "all monsters" and as gemini are treated as normal monsters, they are not treated as effect monsters, thus are unnafected if they were already face-up before skill drain was activated.

Or are Gemini monsters treated as effect monsters AND normal monsters? If so, that would kill the meaning of the part that says that you can normal summon it to treat it as an effect monster.

If my reasoning makes sense, then gemini summoned before skill drain was active on the field, are unnafected by it, until I second summon them or use an effect that makes them being treated as effect monsters.

[darkwolf777]

If Skill Drain is activated while a gemini monster is on the field, then does the monster loses it's effect of being treated as a normal monster?

Skill drain says it negates the effects of "effect monsters", not "all monsters" and as gemini are treated as normal monsters, they are not treated as effect monsters, thus are unnafected if they were already face-up before skill drain was activated.

Or are Gemini monsters treated as effect monsters AND normal monsters? If so, that would kill the meaning of the part that says that you can normal summon it to treat it as an effect monster.

If my reasoning makes sense, then gemini summoned before skill drain was active on the field, are unnafected by it, until I second summon them or use an effect that makes them being treated as effect monsters.

 

If Skill Drain is applied, they are considered Effect Monsters while Face-Up on the field. You cannot activate their Gemini Effects even if they were Double Summoned properly before Skill Drain was applied. You cannot Double Summon a negated Gemini Monster that had not gained its effects yet.

 

Next, Consider this. Monsters that are on the field remember the way they were summoned as long as they are face-up on the field. If Special Summoned by a Gladiator Beast Monster, then that GB monster will remember, as long as it is face-up on the field, that it was Special Summoned that way. The game will remember if a monster was Special Summoned by Monster Reborn (say when we try to destroy all "Special Summoned" monster with Jowgen the Spiritualist").

 

In the case of Geminis, they will remember how they were last summoned. If before Skill Drain, they were Normal Summoned again by the effects of their own Gemini Effect, the game will consider them to have been Double Summoned by its own effect even if it is negated (which is also considered a Normal Summon). If Negated by Skill Drain, they still lose all their effects as above, but they are still considered to have been Normal Summoned a second time by their own effects. Therefore, If Skill Drain is removed, then they will gain their abilities back without needing to re-double summon them again.

[Nishi-chan]

Rep for you Wolf.

 

Would Final Attack Orders effect monsters that were flipped face-up by an attack?

[darkwolf777]

Rep for you Wolf.

 

Would Final Attack Orders effect monsters that were flipped face-up by an attack?

 

Yes. If you attack a face-down Defense Position monster with Final Attack Orders on the field, during the Damage Step (before Damage Calculation), when the monster is flipped face-up, since Final Attack Orders is a Continuous Effect, the monster will automatically switch to Attack Position.

[Nishi-chan]

Now I'm just gonna think of random situations to boost both of our post count =D

 

If a Defense Position monster is attacked, and the attacking monster has less ATK then the defending monster has DEF, the attacking monster's player takes damage. Would this trigger effects that only activate when Battle Damage is done?

[darkwolf777]

Now I'm just gonna think of random situations to boost both of our post count =D

 

If a Defense Position monster is attacked, and the attacking monster has less ATK then the defending monster has DEF, the attacking monster's player takes damage. Would this trigger effects that only activate when Battle Damage is done?

 

Yes. It would be considered that the monster with the higher defense inflicted Battle Damage to the monster with the lower ATK.

 

So in an example, if you attack my Defense Position Don Zaloog with your Kuriboh and you take Battle Damage from it due to Kuriboh's low attack, then Don Zaloog's effect would activate because it inflicted Battle Damage to your Life Points.

[Manjoume Thunder]

What happens if your opponent activates Trap Dustshoot and you chain a card that reduces the number of cards in your hand to less than 4?

[Silver-Chan]

When Machina Fortress is discarded from the hand along with another machine (adds up to 8) in order for Machina Fortress to be summoned, can D.D. Crow be chained to it so it will not be summoned?

 

I mean, I was thinking that effect is not a summoning condition, but an abilty. (Much like how Dark Simorgh is special summoned is also an ability but not a summoning condition)This is because summoning him that way is merely optional, not something like Gigantes or Garuda the Wind Spirit. If that's true, then I'll be chaining D.D. Crow to Machina Fortress' ability to be summoned in such a way.

 

I'm also aware (at least according to an outside source) that Machina Fortress does not target when it comes to discarding monsters to special summon it, but isn't Machina Fortress the target indicated to special summon after paying the cost anyway? If so, then chaining D.D. Crow to it should be legal.

 

If I am wrong, please explain, because there has been a lot of debate on this topic and I need to clarify. Thank you!

[-Griffin]

@Thunder: They see whatever's left.

 

@Silver: You cannot chain to Summoning Conditions, of which Fortress is one, unless it's a Counter Trap/Rai-Oh which literally 'negates' the Summon, so Crow cannot chain to it.

[Expelsword]

When Machina Fortress is discarded from the hand along with another machine (adds up to 8) in order for Machina Fortress to be summoned, can D.D. Crow be chained to it so it will not be summoned?

 

I mean, I was thinking that effect is not a summoning condition, but an abilty. (Much like how Dark Simorgh is special summoned is also an ability but not a summoning condition)This is because summoning him that way is merely optional, not something like Gigantes or Garuda the Wind Spirit. If that's true, then I'll be chaining D.D. Crow to Machina Fortress' ability to be summoned in such a way.

 

I'm also aware (at least according to an outside source) that Machina Fortress does not target when it comes to discarding monsters to special summon it, but isn't Machina Fortress the target indicated to special summon after paying the cost anyway? If so, then chaining D.D. Crow to it should be legal.

 

If I am wrong, please explain, because there has been a lot of debate on this topic and I need to clarify. Thank you!

 

 

I believe it is a cost, so if they discard a Fortress you can ruin their day with a D.D. Crow before the summon resolves

[-Griffin]

I believe it is a cost, so if they discard a Fortress you can ruin their day with a D.D. Crow before the summon resolves

 

See my post, Summoning Conditions don't have costs, they just happen without chains, iirc.

[Silver-Chan]

@Thunder: They see whatever's left.

 

@Silver: You cannot chain to Summoning Conditions, of which Fortress is one, unless it's a Counter Trap/Rai-Oh which literally 'negates' the Summon, so Crow cannot chain to it.

 

I already know that Dark Simorgh's special summoning ability is NOT a summoning condition, so how is Machina Fortress any different?

 

 

Also, for some reason, there has been too much debate on this topic------Dark Simorgh vs Book of Moon

 

Many sources say that Book of Moon doesn't work because apparently, flipping cards face down is the same as setting.

 

Now, when I went to a tournament to try to thwart someone's plan of doing that, I find out that it IS legal from surrounding sources, because flipping cards face down is NOT the same as setting. I wonder sometimes....Did they come up with that because Dark Simorgh targets the player (setting the Book of Moon itself is illegal) and not the cards that have an effect of flipping cards face down...or something? I'm so confused.

[Succubus Queen]

I already know that Dark Simorgh's special summoning ability is NOT a summoning condition, so how is Machina Fortress any different?

 

Also, there has been too much debate for some reason on this one: Dark Simorgh and Book of Moon

 

Many sources say that Book of Moon will not work, because apparently flipping face down is still considered setting.

 

When I was in a tournament, the people there said that it DOES work, because flipping face down is NOT the same as setting. I wonder....Did they come up with that because Dark Simorgh targets the player and not any cards.....or something? I'm so confused.

Book of Moon does not set, and Dark Simorgh does not prevent cards from being flipped face down.

[Silver-Chan]

Book of Moon does not set, and Dark Simorgh does not prevent cards from being flipped face down.

 

Tournament players as well as some friends hav been saying that as well. If that's right, then Yu-Gi-Oh! Wikia and Pojo is wrong.

 

When Machina Fortress is discarded from the hand along with another machine (adds up to 8) in order for Machina Fortress to be summoned, can D.D. Crow be chained to it so it will not be summoned?

 

I mean, I was thinking that effect is not a summoning condition, but an abilty. (Much like how Dark Simorgh is special summoned is also an ability but not a summoning condition)This is because summoning him that way is merely optional, not something like Gigantes or Garuda the Wind Spirit. If that's true, then I'll be chaining D.D. Crow to Machina Fortress' ability to be summoned in such a way.

 

I'm also aware (at least according to an outside source) that Machina Fortress does not target when it comes to discarding monsters to special summon it, but isn't Machina Fortress the target indicated to special summon after paying the cost anyway? If so, then chaining D.D. Crow to it should be legal.

 

If I am wrong, please explain, because there has been a lot of debate on this topic and I need to clarify. Thank you!

 

The two answers I recieved for this are contradicting each other. Which is it?

[evilfusion]

As for Machina Fortress, it's not an effect (like Gorz or Tragoedia) summoning it, and so it should not start a chain. It's a Summoning method that works with both hand and graveyard. This method should not start a chain, just like cards like Cyber Dragon and Chaos Emperor Dragon do not start a chain to Special Summon them.

 

It should be ruled the same way as Endymion, the Master Magician (I dont think that has special rulings). The cost of the Special Summon is paid and the monster is Summoned. No chain opportunity until the summon is completed. From what I've seen in the video games, the player doesn't declare/show the card they're Summoning prior to paying the cost and placing the card on the field. You can't chain between paying the cost and Summoning the monster.

[darkwolf777]

I already know that Dark Simorgh's special summoning ability is NOT a summoning condition, so how is Machina Fortress any different?

 

Dark Simorgh is an Ignition Effect that creates a Chain. Machina Fortress is a Special Summoning Condition. There is only ONE way to tell why Dark Simorgh is different, and that's because its Special Summoning effects are not listed first. On any and every single card that has Summoning Conditions, they are ALWAYS listed first. Dark Simorgh's effect lists "This is also Wind Attribute" as the very first thing. That means the rest of the card cannot be a Summoning Condition, but are activated effects. Summoning Conditions are always listed first before effects.

 

Also, for some reason, there has been too much debate on this topic------Dark Simorgh vs Book of Moon

 

Many sources say that Book of Moon doesn't work because apparently, flipping cards face down is the same as setting.

 

As for the Book of Moon thing. Book of Moon is considered setting. Any act of flipping a card face-down is setting. Even cards like "Medusa Worm" that don't even use the word "Set" cannot be activated to flip themselves Face-down. Dark Simorgh affects the player. They cannot perform any action that would place a card face-down.

[Silver-Chan]

As for Machina Fortress, it's not an effect (like Gorz or Tragoedia) summoning it, and so it should not start a chain. It's a Summoning method that works with both hand and graveyard. This method should not start a chain, just like cards like Cyber Dragon and Chaos Emperor Dragon do not start a chain to Special Summon them.

 

It should be ruled the same way as Endymion, the Master Magician (I dont think that has special rulings). The cost of the Special Summon is paid and the monster is Summoned. No chain opportunity until the summon is completed. From what I've seen in the video games, the player doesn't declare/show the card they're Summoning prior to paying the cost and placing the card on the field. You can't chain between paying the cost and Summoning the monster.

 

 

I already know for a fact that Dark Simorgh is not a summoning condition, but it IS an effect. (making it Divine Wrathable) How is Machina Fortress any different?

 

I say this because it's merely optional to special summon using its ability. You can also normal summon Machina Fortress.

[darkwolf777]

I already know for a fact that Dark Simorgh is not a summoning condition, but it IS an effect. (making it Divine Wrathable) How is Machina Fortress any different?

 

I say this because it's merely optional to special summon using its ability. You can also normal summon Machina Fortress.

 

Read my post, as I answered this for you. You might not have seen since we posted at the same time :x

[evilfusion]

Whoa whoa whoa!

 

Dark Simorgh is Special Summonable by its effect, but you CANT Divine Wrath it. No effect is being activated for Wrath to be chained to. Its effect allows it to be Special Summoned, but like Cyber Dragon, that method is not an activated effect. It's a cost or condition for Summoning. Now, things such as Gorz, Tragoedia, and Battle Fader have Triggers for when they get Special Summoned, and those effects "activate" when the the Trigger is met. Those can be Divine Wrathed, but Machina Fortress and Dark Simorgh do not activate effects. Those are Summon effects and do not start a chain, the same way continuous effects do not start a chain.

 

Treeborn Frog, for example, can be Special Summoned during the Standby Phase if you control no S/Ts. It's a specific timing for its graveyard effect to apply. That starts a chain. Machina Fortress can be Special Summoned by paying the cost of 8* of machines. That does not start a chain. You pay the cost, summon the monster.

 

Zombie Master activates its effect and pays a monster as a cost. A chain is started because Zombie Master's Ignition effect was activated. Machina Fortress is not a Graveyard Ignition effect like Mezuki or D-Hero Malicious.

 

Being optional to Special Summon will still make Special Summoning by its SS condition to be a summoning condition. The distinction between an effect and a condition is whether the effect "activates" or whether it's just a summoning method. Cyber Dragon is a method, Gorz is an effect. Cyber Dragon has a condition. Gorz has a trigger. Fortress is a method. Dark Simorgh is a method. Treeborn Frog is a Trigger.

 

EDIT: My above statements regarding Simorgh was forgetting that it has a Graveyard summoning effect. THAT IS AN EFFECT. It is a separate Summoning method and has to be activated. I believe the same applies to Machina Fortress Special Summoning itself from the Graveyard. However, you cannot chain to its Special Summon from the hand, even if it is sent to the Graveyard from the hand for the cost.

[darkwolf777]

Whoa whoa whoa!

 

Dark Simorgh is Special Summonable by its effect, but you CANT Divine Wrath it.

 

Incorrect. Both effects of Dark Simorgh that Special Summon it are Ignition Effects, not Special Summoning conditions. It can be negated by Divine Wrath.

 

Normally It would agree but as I mentioned, Special Summoning conditions must always be first on the card. For Dark Simorgh to say "While This card is face-up on the field, it is also treated as WIND Attribute" first, this is not a Summoning Condition, but an effect. The rest of the card must also be effects, not Summoning Conditions.

 

As for Machina Fortress, this is a Special Summoning condition, being listed first on the card before its effects. Generally, Special Summoning Conditions normally only apply to the Special Summon of a monster from the hand (usually assumed when the location is not specified). Machina Fortress is a Special case to include Graveyard as well, allowing it to be Special Summoned from the Graveyard without starting a chain.

[evilfusion]

Oh, that's how you can tell if it's a condition? If it's first on the card? Good to know. And curse Dark Simorgh for being the exception.

[darkwolf777]

Oh, that's how you can tell if it's a condition? If it's first on the card? Good to know. And curse Dark Simorgh for being the exception.

 

Its only an observation, and its the only explanation I can come up with as to why Dark Simorgh's rulings are as such, considering the wording is the same.

[EHN.]

Lets say I just attacked his face-down Kryuel with Assault Beast, and he activates Fairy Box, so I would lose 1700, can he use the effect of Robbin' Zombie?

[darkwolf777]

Lets say I just attacked his face-down Kryuel with Assault Beast, and he activates Fairy Box, so I would lose 1700, can he use the effect of Robbin' Zombie?

 

Yes. His Defense Position Assault Beast inflicted 1700 Life Points of Damage to you. Robbin' Zombie will activate.

[-Griffin]

A theoretical Whangu whose effect is optional on field, Treeborn in Graveyard. Treeborn player insists that they'll keep reviving until Whangu player won't kill it, Whangu player will keep killing until Treeborn stop trying to revive. Clearly, it's unfair that you deny either player a chance to use their effects, so what happens? Game draw since it's unfair to continue in any game state?