Machina Fortress [I'm Bored]

[VCR_CAT]

 

You can discard Machine-Type monster(s) whose total Levels equal 8 or more, then Special Summon this card (from your hand or Graveyard). If this card is destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard: Target 1 card your opponent controls; destroy that target. Before resolving an opponent's monster effect that targets this face-up card, look at your opponent's hand and discard 1 card from their hand.

 

 

Let's take a moment to talk about what is pretty much the most absolute best maindeck machine-type monster in the game. The amount of things this card has going for it is absolutely insane, and there was a time where I actually considered this better than a Dragon Ruler by base-design alone; held back by what you run it in. So let's take a look:

• its Special Summon is inherent
• Can discard itself as part of its cost
• The only limit to how many times you can summon him in a turn is your hand
• The effect that allows you to look at your opponent's hand is inherent and continuous; resolves during an effect resolution.
• Overall very solid on-field effects and stats that make it a great card on its own

Please discuss Best Girl Machina Fortress and how it could get banned if it gets abused enough

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

Best inherently-summoning Level 7 EARTH Machine with 2500 ATK, 1600 DEF, and 3 total effects.

Would totally run at least 1 in a deck that can use it.

[Toffee.]

Part of me still wishes Megaform was more of a thing, because I always wanted to run Mega and This together.

...Shame that Mega sucks.

 

As for this card itself, it's always a very prominent force because it's easy to fuel it, it's searchable, it's also a beater that takes other cards with it, etc, it's a very solid card that can only becomes ridiculous if stuff is meant to go out of it's way to abuse it.

[VCR_CAT]

Part of me still wishes Megaform was more of a thing, because I always wanted to run Mega and This together.

...Shame that Mega sucks.

 

As for this card itself, it's always a very prominent force because it's easy to fuel it, it's searchable, it's also a beater that takes other cards with it, etc, it's a very solid card that can only becomes ridiculous if stuff is meant to go out of it's way to abuse it.

 

The card has this fantastic versatility to it that's so hard to beat. It can be used as a front-and-center boss, it can be used as a material for summons, it can be used as an engine piece to dump stuff in the grave, its inherent summon gets around Majesty's Fiend effects, it can be used as spot removal in suicide attacks, and on top of that, his value and strength as a card makes him prime bait for backrow cards and other nasty effects.

 

Heck, this card becomes kind of the best/only way to really get around Kirin against pendulum decks. his ease of summon (especially in a deck that can really use him) makes him a solid contender to just get out on the field with no real telegraphing play (besides maybe Gearframe) and no real setup; his effect that allows you to look at the opponent's hand and discard a card makes the opponent really question if they actually want to bounce it, and his higher attack allows him to actually beat over Kirin on a usual basis. On top of that, bouncing Fortress is pretty much hurting the pendulum player more than it is hurting the Machine player because of how Fortress works and what's being baited. Without any real way of dealing with a Fortress situation, Kirin can't win against it and has to take a punch to the face and let the opponent set up.

 

Honestly, it's an incredibly stellar card and has SO MUCH going for it.

[Kaiji]

It targets and its limited by its 2500 ATK, damn this card aged horribly. Part of the reason why people whine about Castel being broken.

 

It's cool that this was made during a time where as a structure deck boss all you needed was beef stats and a trigger effect that pops a card.

[VCR_CAT]

It targets and its limited by its 2500 ATK, damn this card aged horribly. Part of the reason why people whine about Castel being broken.

 

It's cool that this was made during a time where as a structure deck boss all you needed was beef stats and a trigger effect that pops a card.

 

[♪ ♪Aria ♪ ♪]

Well, since it can SS multiple times in a turn without any restrictions, except hand, I believe you could SS this and use Limiter Removal, then SS it again the next turn, for an easy 5000 Beater, plus it can also discard annoying Quick-Play spells from your Opponent's hand.....

[Lonk]

The card has this fantastic versatility to it that's so hard to beat. It can be used as a front-and-center boss, it can be used as a material for summons, it can be used as an engine piece to dump stuff in the grave, its inherent summon gets around Majesty's Fiend effects, it can be used as spot removal in suicide attacks, and on top of that, his value and strength as a card makes him prime bait for backrow cards and other nasty effects.

 

Heck, this card becomes kind of the best/only way to really get around Kirin against pendulum decks. his ease of summon (especially in a deck that can really use him) makes him a solid contender to just get out on the field with no real telegraphing play (besides maybe Gearframe) and no real setup; his effect that allows you to look at the opponent's hand and discard a card makes the opponent really question if they actually want to bounce it, and his higher attack allows him to actually beat over Kirin on a usual basis. On top of that, bouncing Fortress is pretty much hurting the pendulum player more than it is hurting the Machine player because of how Fortress works and what's being baited. Without any real way of dealing with a Fortress situation, Kirin can't win against it and has to take a punch to the face and let the opponent set up.

 

Honestly, it's an incredibly stellar card and has SO MUCH going for it.

 

 

You make it sound like these Decks absolutely rely on these plays rather them as options for their opponent to get around.  Fortress used to be a solution card, but the prevalence of non-targeting removal and banishing this format kind of making dealing with this card too easy to get around.  Heck, even Decks without access to these removals still are fully capable of dealing with Fortress because they have options that are great with dealing with things like Fortress or they just don't care about losing things to Fortress.

[VCR_CAT]

 

You make it sound like these Decks absolutely rely on these plays rather them as options for their opponent to get around.  Fortress used to be a solution card, but the prevalence of non-targeting removal and banishing this format kind of making dealing with this card too easy to get around.  Heck, even Decks without access to these removals still are fully capable of dealing with Fortress because they have options that are great with dealing with things like Fortress or they just don't care about losing things to Fortress.

 

If you think I'm trying to sell this card as a big boss and not as a card with some superb utility and versatility, then you're reading it wrong. In regards to this format, targeting removal within monsters is still very much alive; if not more-so. Between cards like Dark Destroyer, Breaksword, and Castel; there's still plenty of widely used cards that target as removal. And of course most decks are capable of dealing with Fortress; 2500 ATK isn't unbeatable. The problem isn't so much dealing with Fortress, it's dealing with it in a way that's not netting yourself a big loss, or forcing yourself to use your more valuable methods of removal to deal with it.

 

One of the best parts about Fortress is that is very easy to summon, cheap to summon (in the right deck), and its inherent summoning effect means that it's a little harder to predict outside of Gearframe. Couple this with the fact that, while it's not a gigantic unbeatable boss, it does have enough of a presence that the opponent doesn't necessarily want to deal with it either way; it makes a card that, when you put it out, puts the opponent in a position where they have to decide if they want to use their cards to get rid of this threat, or see what I'm actually going to do with it.

 

I mean, I've been playing Fortress in Trains since I first built that deck. If at any point it was bad to use in the deck, or had shown signs of not aging well at all, I would've removed it a long time ago. The quality in this card isn't so much in how strong it is or isn't; it's the fact that some very common methods of removing it often bite an opponent in the ass to do so; and resorting to non-targeting methods of removal or more valuable S/T effects to remove it (not many decks have these) isn't any skin off my nose. In fact, it means I've forced their hand to use their more valuable plays on something as cheap to get out as Fortress is for me.

 

On the outside, it's easy to say "Wow this is bad" because its effect targets and because of 2500. Make no mistake, this card is an absolute beaut and nothing to take lightly.

[Kaiji]

I would def use Kirin on this card, technical play means you just bounce it during BP where it's being forced to be summoned during M2 where it's basically a vanilla.

 

Since the card immediately discards the card upon being targeted (before Kirin resolves) then that means you can just empty your hand as the discard happens before the Pendulum Monster returns to hand.

[Trebuchet MS]

When I got the Structure Deck and assembled a makeshift Gadget Deck, I quickly found myself making my plays around this one card. This is before Xyz Monsters debuted. I eventually cut out the rest of the Machina elements, leaving this, Gearframe, and occasionally Soldier to do a Soldier-Fortress-Limiter OTK (because, hey, it's not a Nomi).

 

It can be outed quite easily nowadays without tripping any of its effects, so most of the time it's used as fodder for R7 plays. In a pinch it can still provide enough muscle to slow down a head-on assault, though.

[VCR_CAT]

I would def use Kirin on this card, technical play means you just bounce it during BP where it's being forced to be summoned during M2 where it's basically a vanilla.

 

Since the card immediately discards the card upon being targeted (before Kirin resolves) then that means you can just empty your hand as the discard happens before the Pendulum Monster returns to hand.

 

Assuming you're able to; but if you do, then I'm still forcing your hand. Placing your cards on the field places them in an easier place for me to remove them and deal with them. In terms of me summoning Machina Fortress, I'm summoning it at a +0 or +1 typically, and not depending on my Battle Phase if I know Kirin is in the mix. Whether you bounce him in the battle phase or the main phase makes little difference to me; and simply means that I accomplished what I set out to do: force your hand and make room for bigger plays.

 

The point isn't that Fortress is the biggest monster; the point is that Fortress is big enough of a threat to force my opponent's hand on their plays. If I don't, and they see through that rouse; then it makes no difference to me since Fortress is big enough that I'm able to use him for other large plays.

 

There are ways to play around it, sure. But don't neglect that someone like me has played with Fortress enough to know these ways to play around him, and how to take advantage of these strategies.

 

 

 

When I got the Structure Deck and assembled a makeshift Gadget Deck, I quickly found myself making my plays around this one card. This is before Xyz Monsters debuted. I eventually cut out the rest of the Machina elements, leaving this, Gearframe, and occasionally Soldier to do a Soldier-Fortress-Limiter OTK (because, hey, it's not a Nomi).

 

It can be outed quite easily nowadays without tripping any of its effects, so most of the time it's used as fodder for R7 plays. In a pinch it can still provide enough muscle to slow down a head-on assault, though.

 

Like I said above; it's great as Xyz fodder, (sometimes) Synchro fodder, it's good as muscle, it's good as removal when you need to, it's good for pushing, baiting, holding back, etc. It's a dang versatile card; one just needs to forget "but it targets" and "but people can out it" and open their minds to the pastabilities; because there's a lot you can do with it, and if Konami's going to release new cards for Trains then they'll have a tough time replacing Machina Fortress in my build. Those are big shoes to fill.

[Kaiji]

Wouldn't that also be the case for Kirin? In nearly all scenarios Kirin is threatening you not because it's the only threat but the fact that Kirin is paired with a larger threat. You aren't forcing the player's hand, you are just baiting one answer which makes it not really the greatest example.

[VCR_CAT]

Wouldn't that also be the case for Kirin? In nearly all scenarios Kirin is threatening you not because it's the only threat but the fact that Kirin is paired with a larger threat. You aren't forcing the player's hand, you are just baiting one answer which makes it not really the greatest example.

 

In the case of Trains, the threat of Kirin isn't what he's paired with; the threat is Kirin himself. The rank 10 toolbox is a frickin' beastbox, and cards that restrict my access to it are bigger threats than the actual monsters on the field. This is more so because a lot of the Rank 10 monsters themselves are bigger threats than the bosses of most decks at all.

[Just Crouton]

Still the greatest Machine ever printed.

[Tinkerer]

pastabilities

 

...anyways...

 

I like this big guy. I really don't have too much to say that wasn't previously mentioned though.

[Kaiji]

In the case of Trains, the threat of Kirin isn't what he's paired with; the threat is Kirin himself. The rank 10 toolbox is a frickin' beastbox, and cards that restrict my access to it are bigger threats than the actual monsters on the field. This is more so because a lot of the Rank 10 monsters themselves are bigger threats than the bosses of most decks at all.

None of these replies answer my initial point why this card hasn't aged horribly.

 

There's nothing of value that can be popped which doesn't replace itself currently let alone allows you to target with it.

 

All I'm getting is that I'm apparently "too narrow minded for pointing out that the card's even easier to out as the game aged?"

[VCR_CAT]

None of these replies answer my initial point why this card hasn't aged horribly.

 

There's nothing of value that can be popped which doesn't replace itself currently let alone allows you to target with it.

 

All I'm getting is that I'm apparently "too narrow minded for pointing out that the card's even easier to out as the game aged?"

 

Then to reiterate your points and get that on the table:

 

 

It targets and its limited by its 2500 ATK, damn this card aged horribly. Part of the reason why people whine about Castel being broken.

 

It's cool that this was made during a time where as a structure deck boss all you needed was beef stats and a trigger effect that pops a card.

 

Let's look at the match-ups, shall we?

 

Let's start with BA/PK, as the lower ranking of the Tier 1. Their common forms of removal are Breaksword, beatsticks, and Farfa as a common form of removal. Using a Fog Blade on Fortress is more or less a waste of a Fog Blade unless you intend to target him with a monster effect; but in doing so, you've... used a fog blade just so you can remove a monster by destruction. Otherwise, you're either letting me destroy a card or look at your hand. "But it targets and destroys, that's lame"

 

What you seem to be only focused on is targeting and destroying monsters. The backrow, pendulum zones, and field spell zones are often chalk full of cards that any given players is oooohhh gonna wanna kill pretty soon. Knowing where BAPK stand in the removal department, their methods of "getting around Fortress's effects so easily" involve using more cards then necessary to actually remove one threat. In this match-up, the target-destroy is enough to ruin someone's day in the Battle Phase because of a distinct lack of protection on their own monsters. They float, sure; but this can and will often mean the difference between gg and getting an extra turn to put out what you need.

 

2500 ATK? Very serviceable in this match-up.

Targets? Yeah, no restrictions there.

Destroys? Not preferable, but there are still plenty of great things to hit because of it.

 

 

Now, moving up in the tier department, we got Kozmos. "Ah, but these guys have target immunization and can just poop out Dark Destroyer like it's nobody's business," nobody in particular says. Yes, Kozmos have plenty of target immunizations. But also remember that "Hey, the backrow doesn't." On top of the back row, there's still the fact that Dark Destroyer is a monster that targets; hey, thanks for letting me look at your hand. Kozmos aren't the kind of deck to be able to just dump their hand on the field with at least some monsters in hand; especially considering how their common OTK combos operate. In the Battle Phase, Fortress's stats are high enough that none of the pilots are able to beat face on him; nor do the pilots have target protection. Also, let me let you in on a little secret: When Fortress's target/destroy effect times, stand-alone quick monster effects that do not respond to anything in particular do not get to activate. They miss timing. This includes the pilot's ability to banish and summon; Dark Witch's protection; Omega's dodge, etc. etc. They can beat face on Fortress if they want, but unless they want to try and predict what I'm going to target and destroy, then they need to rethink how they want to OTK at all in the first place, and hope their hand is good enough to accommodate that course of action. Of course they have the traps and Raigeki, but one of those is limited, and the other requires more setup before proper usage. And, of course, then they're using their traps on Fortress; which is kind of what I want them to do when I'm summoning Fortress.

 

2500 ATK? Still serviceable; it won't get over Dark Planet or Forerunner, but it's enough to bar out the pilots.

Targets? Yeah, not as great here; but the backrow is always vulnerable when that has cards out.

Destroys? Kind of irrelevant when you can't target the monsters to begin with.

Timing? Screws over pilots from doing what they want to do; Plus, you kind of need a good hand to play around that properly with little consequences, and then pray that it still gets you the win.

 

 

And finally, Monarchs. You know the funny thing is that Fortress is incredibly useful in the Monarch match-up. Besides the fact that everything but Erebus targets in terms of monster removal, Fortress becomes amazing in getting around any and all common lockdowns that a lot of Monarch decks love to enforce. The summon's inherent so it can summon under Majesty Fiend's effect and has the stats to beat over it; it can summon under Dominion and, I dunno, suicide-ram to take care of that stupid card; Monarchs love their Spells and Traps so even if the monsters are immune thanks to March, there's still March itself to remove. Overall, 2500 is kind of a sweet-spot in this case; strong enough to deal with Majesty's, weak enough that I can suicide it for removal with little impact to my own Lifepoints. And in the case of this match-up; opening up the extra deck and allowing me to go into that toolbox basically locks down the game for me in so many cases.

 

2500 ATK? Could be stronger if you want is to beat over Mega's; but still good if you want is a suicide run.

Targets? Always something to target and destroy.

Destroys? Yup.

 

And the funny thing is, in the midst of all those methods of removal that involve Destruction, such as battle, I wasn't even counting in Gearframe. That's a whole different ballpark.

 

As for "Common ways to play around", please try to remember that a deck that makes full use of Fortress not only summons him on the cheap, but can summon him on gained advantage. This means that yes, sure Monarchs can use Stormforth or Erebus; sure Kozmos can use Kozmojo; sure BAPK's can first negate it and use their removal. But the real thing is, then they're using those cards and effects to remove Fortress. To put things into perspective, this would be like using a Raigeki to get rid of a Utopia the Lightning that doesn't have the materials to boost its stats again; except imagine that the given deck was able to summon the UTL on a +0 play, and can continue to resummon him at a minimal loss.

 

Fortress's stats and effects are still very relevant and very useful. Of course there are a couple match-ups where one is worse than the other; but this doesn't by any means come to the conclusion that it's sheet overall; because in each of those match-ups Fortress can find a fantastic use, even if the use on its own is an easily summoned beat-stick. Are there ways to play around him? Yes, but the ways that fully dodge all of his effects are almost always using cards or effects that are too valuable or too taxing on their options to even make such a removal worth it overall.

 

Fortress isn't the main boss of a deck, but he works as a sort of fantastic vanguard for a deck; he paves the way for plenty of plays by either taking care of cards that would otherwise prevent said plays (Kirin; Dominion; Majesty's; etc.) or baiting the use of cards/effects whose value in a given deck are a little valuable for dealing with something like Fortress (Castel; Raigeki; etc.) The benefit of Fortress's effects isn't so much as being able to make use of them all the time, the benefit is that the discard effect and destroy effect are enough of boogymen that an opponent is going to use other methods of removing him to avoid putting themselves at a disadvantage. Of course, many of those cards/effects are their stronger ones that I want them to use, to dump on Fortress to deal with him so I can put out a bigger threat that suddenly their options for dealing with ain't so hot anymore. Or, they're doing something like putting their cards from their hand out on the field, which puts them in a much easier place for removal from Twin Twisters or my own monsters; in which case, I've forced them to place themselves in a less-than-favorable position.

 

 

Has Fortress aged well? By definition that now there's a deck that's able to make a very optimal use of his summoning aspects from the hand and from the grave, yes he has aged well. Has his effects aged well in face of what other decks are able to use? Maybe not necessarily; but it definitely hasn't aged poorly. Would I say that you're too narrow-minded in your judgement of this card? Yes, I would say it appears that you put a very minimal effort in considering how this card can be used, and how it's used at all. By the looks of things, you saw the stats and the "Target" and jumped to a conclusion.

[Kaiji]

Jesus Christ what is this.

 

The only backrow Kozmo is actually playing is Kozmojo or COTH/Oasis and there's Landwalker --> Kozmotown to ignore the pop when its run over

 

You already conceded Stormforth -Aither and Erebus on their turn, but there's also Pleiades.

 

Technical play can just place Beatric/Dante in DEF to wall fortress and focus on your other plays. Even so Dante-Cir loop is completely free so yes, the pop is "lame."

 

Nobody's going to actually place removal on fortress unless its their turn. If they can play ygo during your turn they are ending your turn by hitting your NS and can deal with Fortress afterwards since on its own it's basically a 2500 vanilla where in worst case scenarios you can pay for the pop.

 

The rest is a bunch of fluff tho. You even answered rhetorical questions Zootopia style.

[VCR_CAT]

Jesus Christ what is this.

 

The only backrow Kozmo is actually playing is Kozmojo or COTH/Oasis and there's Landwalker --> Kozmotown to ignore the pop when its run over

 

You already conceded Stormforth -Aither and Erebus on their turn, but there's also Pleiades.

 

Technical play can just place Beatric/Dante in DEF to wall fortress and focus on your other plays. Even so Dante-Cir loop is completely free so yes, the pop is "lame."

 

Nobody's going to actually place removal on fortress unless its their turn. If they can play ygo during your turn they are ending your turn by hitting your NS and can deal with Fortress afterwards since on its own it's basically a 2500 vanilla where in worst case scenarios you can pay for the pop.

 

The rest is a bunch of fluff tho. You even answered rhetorical questions Zootopia style.

 

[VampireofDarkness]

I think Machina Fortress in of itself is about as misunderstood as Dark Armed in that you don't run it as a card to revolve around or whatnot, you run it as a card to advance your gamestate in one way or another. As such, that is where the greatness of this card comes in. Y'all gotta remember there are two ways to trigger this mf. Not just when you destroy it in battle, but also targeting it. That is where this card kinda shines. And even if it isn't being used as a standalone, it is also technically a R7 fodder that if you touch you get a card lost for. This especially applies to a Deck that Trains that will get a search out of it via Ruffian Railcar or setting up other cards and combinations. That being said, I feel it is ignorant to consider some of these combinations like they are super common and/or the only ones you will run into. Kozmo don't run more then 1 MAYBE 2 Landwalker, Pleiades is a pretty ignorant move, and PK Fire and Dracopal will more times then not lose cards out of it outside of the latter's IG NIS TER and UTL access. (But on a serious note, why would you waste either on a Fortress knowing you will be frequently up against 81 and other rather larger R10s? I maybe could get Ignister, but not UTL) I mean yes, it isn't god tier, but referring to cards as only bad or broken encourages ignorance, a special level of ignorance I have been recently taking note to. This is just a rather well rounded card whose aging spree is low because it has a bit of tooling to it. Nobody in this thread is iHop at his peak, and everybody here should take note to that before going in like they are on that level of intelligence.