LGBT Students Campaigning for Separate Halls

[Zauls]

http://thetab.com/uk/student/2016/05/16/students-call-lgbt-halls-avoid-victimization-straight-people-3367

 

What the funk is this? Seriously, a minority group that campaigns against discrimination against them wants to segregate themselves from everyone else...? There seems to be no better way to create an "us and them" atmosphere on campus. It would be such a huge backwards step away from integration and acceptance and it's such an overreaction to a minority of cases where LGBT students are discriminated against.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Didn't read the article but I know that my cousin's college has a small dorm area that's just LGBT etc etc. It's mostly to make certain people feel more comfortable about being open and such.

[mido9]

Why dont they just partition part of somewhere like Texas and call it LBGTsrael?

[~~~~]

Why dont they just partition part of somewhere like Texas and call it LBGTsrael?

Wouldn't that just be Austin?

[vla1ne]

Yeah, sure, why not? They feel uncomfortable huh? There's no way they could do something as difficult as "get over it" or "stop worrying about it" right? There's no way it could all be in their heads right? They were obviously being violently bullied from everybody on the campus right? The best way to handle adversity's to shut yourself in a dorm with nothing but people who are like you right?

 

...If they don't want to integrate, and can't handle the same problems that those who've come before them have grown past, then just put them in their own little world. We all want to hang reality sometimes and we all learn how well that goes when we're forced to go back to it, let them try and learn. it's all in the name of "progress" right?

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Yeah, sure, why not? They feel uncomfortable huh? There's no way they could do something as difficult as "get over it" or "stop worrying about it" right? There's no way it could all be in their heads right? They were obviously being violently bullied from everybody on the campus right? The best way to handle adversity's to shut yourself in a dorm with nothing but people who are like you right?

 

...If they don't want to integrate, and can't handle the same problems that those who've come before them have grown past, then just put them in their own little world. We all want to hang reality sometimes and we all learn how well that goes when we're forced to go back to it, let them try and learn. it's all in the name of "progress" right?

This is the a really ignorant thing to say. Sorry and no personal offense meant but, that's just entirely lopsided and wrong.

Those "problems those who've come before have grown past" is a joke. Those who "grown past" those problems probably almost all would say they would have rather not had to go through the problems, and say they shouldn't have HAD to because of something they were born with.

It's not like they separate themselves entirely, they just have a place of their own. Somewhere they can feel comfortable, and not be questioned about things they don't choose, mocked, etc etc. for at least part of their college life.

 

You know how many times I, or friends of mine, have gotten people saying how "Oh I hope you find a way to fix yourself" because of sexuality? Try getting that, and worse, almost every day. It really can wear on a person. Saying just to get over it is a joke. Cause if a lot of LGBT people weren't able in some respect "get over" all the crap people can pull, they'd be dead.

 

Ya know, walk a mile in another's shoes, ect etc, it's not so simple as you imply.

 

Granted this specific case may be extreme. Not sure.

 

...Bah, tired. You probably don't mean much by it. Just felt had to get this little rant said and done finally.

[vla1ne]

This is the a really ignorant thing to say. Sorry and no personal offense meant but, that's just entirely lopsided and wrong.

Those "problems those who've come before have grown past" is a joke. Those who "grown past" those problems probably almost all would say they would have rather not had to go through the problems, and say they shouldn't have HAD to because of something they were born with.

It's not like they separate themselves entirely, they just have a place of their own. Somewhere they can feel comfortable, and not be questioned about things they don't choose, mocked, etc etc. for at least part of their college life.

 

You know how many times I, or friends of mine, have gotten people saying how "Oh I hope you find a way to fix yourself" because of sexuality? Try getting that, and worse, almost every day. It really can wear on a person. Saying just to get over it is a joke. Cause if a lot of LGBT people weren't able in some respect "get over" all the crap people can pull, they'd be dead.

 

Ya know, walk a mile in another's shoes, ect etc, it's not so simple as you imply.

 

Granted this specific case may be extreme. Not sure.

 

...Bah, tired. You probably don't mean much by it. Just felt had to get this little rant said and done finally.

It is by no means ignorant, yes, the people that came before them would probably not want them to go through struggles, but being uncomfortable is no enough of a reason to get your own dorm. College is preparation for the world at large, special treatment like that is not doing anything to advance said goals. Bullying and other forms of mistreatment are already banned for al students, and if that’s what they want to get away from, reporting it is enough to do so. if the authorities do nothing in that case, then I do not see how a special dorm filled with the people who are afraid of being bullied will fix that if anything, it increases the problem. instead of making their existence normal, like living among the rest of the students would do, they are asking for a special treatment as if they were any different from everybody else who goes to their respective academies. That does not fly, being homosexual is not enough to qualify you for a different dormitory any more than being a different race would. It is simply not the way to go about the problem, it is merely hiding from it.

 

 

I don’t buy into the feel comfortable excuse, a homo/hetero dorm will only increase the divide outside of said dorms, it will make the differences more pronounced.

 

 

“ You know how many times I, or friends of mine, have gotten people saying how "Oh I hope you find a way to fix yourself" because of sexuality? Try getting that, and worse, almost every day. It really can wear on a person. Saying just to get over it is a joke. Cause if a lot of LGBT people weren't able in some respect "get over" all the crap people can pull, they'd be dead.”

 

 

I’ve been jumped for my opinions; I’ve fought and ran for my safety multiple times throughout my life because of my actions and words. I've stolen out of spite, and fought over the dumbest s***. I have friends who have died, went to prison, and been killed. before i moved away from my original neighborhood, i was just as likely to get beaten up as i was to have an uneventful day at the library. I know exactly what persecution and bullying are like, and I do not care. They come with the territory called life, and finding ways to handle it, instead of hide from it, are what make progress possible. If all that they have to deal with are looks and misguided well-wishing, then they have approximately nothing to worry about. You think a separate dorm is going to stop bullying? It’s not. It’ll only make them bigger targets. I hope you fix yourself is not enough of an excuse and if you’ve gotten worse than that I suggest you list it. I understand that people need somewhere to wind down, but you appear to be taking scenarios such as words, and sexual orientation, and making them seem as if they are a legit reason to completely separate people. They are not. If you are too weak to handle mean stares, get off the campus. as bad as you think a campus might be, it does not compare to life outside of campuses, where people don’t get to choose their neighbors, and everybody you meet can be not only an a******, but completely uneducated as well.

 

 

I’ve walked a mile alongside many other people’s shoes. I do it naturally because it’s who I am and how I operate. I have gay friends and family who I treasure just as much as the rest of my friends and family. I’ve been with many of them in their highest and lowest moments. I see exactly where you are coming from, and I reject it 100%. There is no need for such measures; they will not help the LGBT cause.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

The "it's how life is" argument will never fly with me.

Because it shouldn't be.

And imo it's better to look at different ways to make a change, not just shoot down any other option simply because "It's how it is".

 

It's not "being uncomfortable" as the only reason

It's not "hiding from the problem" most dorms like this actively go out to spread awareness and such

And trust me it's not just "looks and mean words" happening.

 

In the "real world" you also have a barrier between you and neighbors, co-workers, ect, more than in a college setting. In college people are young, stupid, and impressionable. Easily swayed to do mean-spirited/horrible things and get away with it.

Colleges are a strange place where they put a bunch of people in the age where people are just barely understanding how to REALLY interact with others, and give them not much supervision, lots can go wrong.

 

 It may not be the worst thing ever but it's still a bad thing that we're only recently looking at ways to deal with.

 

Forgive me if I don't feel like sharing personal experiences with a horde of people online. I don't have to go into specifics, but there have been plenty worse me or friends have gone through than "Just mean words that they should get over".

 

Seeing as someone can request not to have to share a dorm with a gay roommate, and it gets allowed, not sure why this is such a terrible thing. It's just a separate dorm, which doesn't keep them from interacting with whoever they choose. They aren't hiding, it's just a respite for the bad times.

I don't see an issue with wanting a place they don't have to worry about that issue, given everything else already needing to worry about during college.

And as said before, specifically my cousin's college, the people in these dorms actively go out and spread awareness, and fight for rights. They are by no means hiding. Seeing as things such as getting rocks thrown at them during harmless activities happen. Pretty sure it's logical to want a place they can feel safe.

 

People love to preach the idea "Just go about things like normal and it'll seem normal" but it just doesn't work like that. It's different for everyone of course but that often doesn't work. Because either you have to never mention the sexuality, or you do, and suddenly things are different anyway. Because you can't say that separating it like this increases the divide. It doesn't. The divide is up to the individual. Many people who would think of being in a different dorm makes you different would think the same if it's the same dorm, but an openly gay person.

It's not going to affect the "cause" one way or another in general. It's not meant to make a statement or to fix an issue. That's up to each individual person. It's meant to simply give young people a way to feel they have a voice, and feel they can actually do something with their lives. Instead of having to worry that "If I am open around these strangers will they accept me? Will they hurt me? Will they be really nice?"

I'm still terrified of coming out to my dad. I can't be sure he won't try and harm me. Yet usually he's a good guy, he just...has some issues. If someone like that I have to worry about, I sure as hell am gonna worry about strangers in close quarters who I'm forced to live with, with not very good supervision. (Cause real talk dorm security isn't all that good in a lot of places...)

 

I don't see the issue because it doesn't feel like an issue. It's not something that affects most people negatively at all.

 

It bothers and baffles me people jump to "It's hiding" or "get over it that's how life is" as if just because of this stuff people don't understand that.

The majority know how things are, and there's a fair number that actively express themselves anyway. This just helps prevent...really bad things to go down.
It's not like LGBT people are completely different creatures who don't see what happens in the world, and as one we all can't stand having mean things said.
Most that I know understand these things, and can deal with a good majority of it.

 

And again. Just because it does happen, doesn't mean it's not good to try out things to see if it can help those things not happen.

[Maeriberii Haan]

It won't actually do anything other than creating further rifts between the two sides, and against what they're trying to accomplish in the first place. And it's pretty impractical to implement anyway.

 

You can't get acceptance by separating yourself from others. That just permeates the whole "us vs them" stance on both groups, and all it does to the detractors would be like as if they're getting special treatment that are unnecessary.

 

If the goal is for the LGBT students to be comfortable in the imminent threat of discrimination, there's a lot of other things that can be done instead of doing what's basically discrimination in a different flavor. That's just plain absurd.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

The world isn't a movie.
People aren't going to just be able to go about their lives, come out, and be accepted even if they try and just go about things as normal.

It should be that. It should be that people can just be themselves with no worries. But it's not.

This doesn't cause the rift. This keeps the rift that's already there from swallowing someone because they can't express themselves out of fear.

 

You can't get acceptance by trying to act like everything's okay. Having a place like this gives people a sort of cushion to fall back on. It doesn't stop them from going out of their way to try and educate or explain things.

It doesn't stop them from expressing their views and interacting with people.

Hell the people I know from these dorms are often more proactive and social with people not from the dorm, than those who don't have this.

It lets them do those things, while also having a fallback in case things go to sheet.

 

 

That's how I see it, anyway. Thanks to vla1ne for being civil. Despite disagreeing. You the real MVP.

[Maeriberii Haan]

The benefit of such action when taken is short term at best, and even as a fallback, the long term issue it causes is far from something that can be easily brushed off.

 

Segregation can't fix issues, especially one of discrimination. It's only going to make it easier for one side to pick on the other. Separating them to protect them from harmful voices won't stop the harmful voices from continuing. It would only make it worse. It's harder to accept something as a part of the community when that something doesn't even participate in the community itself properly. Acceptance is something to be fought for, but this is not something that is worth fighting for. Things will never change if one does not do something about it, if they treat it as something normal and live their lives with it in mind. But, what kind of change should be fought for? The hate, the different treatment, the misleading thoughts, the discrimination is what should be fought against. LGBT people are not more or less human than hetero people, and that's that.

 

Rather than pushing the issue under the rug by separating them into a safe haven of their own, address the causes of the harmful thoughts against them. Educate people. Create programs that helps the community accept them better. Fight for things that would improve the situation for everyone in the long run instead of fighting for something that only offer a short term benefit and counterproductive in nature to what they need.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I didn't want to lie but...here. In case it was missed in all the paragraphs. And to be sure it's not misunderstood.

And as said before, specifically my cousin's college, the people in these dorms actively go out and spread awareness, and fight for rights. They are by no means hiding. Seeing as things such as getting rocks thrown at them during harmless activities happen. Pretty sure it's logical to want a place they can feel safe.
 

and

 

It doesn't stop them from going out of their way to try and educate or explain things.

It doesn't stop them from expressing their views and interacting with people.

Hell the people I know from these dorms are often more proactive and social with people not from the dorm, than those who don't have this.

Fighting for rights is good. It's better when you can know there's a place for you, while you fight, though.

[vla1ne]

*words*

Sadly, too bad, because humans, as a whole honestly do not care. While “that’s how life is” isn’t a legit argument, it is in no way false. I’m not even trying to be cruel, that really is how life is, and that is how it’s going to be for a long time yet. Separating people does nothing to remedy the situation. I’m not shooting the option down because “that’s how it is” I’m shooting it down because the option itself is too weak to even be considered as a band-aid. The option is essentially hiding them from the problem, and doing so will neither help them get over or around it. To put it simply, it’s like hiding from your bills, sure, the problems out of sight for longer, but it’s not gone, and it’ll only make the times that much worse, because they’ll never grow accustomed to learning better ways when everybody’s telling them to find a place to hide from their problems. Everybody at college goes through s***, their trials aren’t that much worse that they need special dorms.

 

“It's not "hiding from the problem" most dorms like this actively go out to spread awareness and such”

 

You know what spreads understanding better than a separate dorm? Living with people of different backgrounds. A gay guy telling you they aren’t so bad, is nowhere near as effective as living alongside a gay guy, and learning that they are as human as the rest of society. Separate dorms do not do that.

 

“Colleges are a strange place where they put a bunch of people in the age where people are just barely understanding how to REALLY interact with others, and give them not much supervision, lots can go wrong.”

 

Aside from getting a degree, that is one of the literal purposes of colleges. There’s not always going to be other people around to supervise, find a way to deal, and learn how to live with it. It’s like a miniature melting pot. you can’t expect to learn about other people if you’re not even willing to live with said people. It may be a bad thing, but it’s nothing special. People get s***, people from different backgrounds can get different s*** of varying intensities. You either learn to deal with it, or you fail at life, literally. Separate dorms are an excellent start at the failing part.

 

 

“Forgive me if I don't feel like sharing personal experiences with a horde of people online. I don't have to go into specifics, but there have been plenty worse me or friends have gone through than "Just mean words that they should get over".”

 

And you either get past it, or you can hide from it, I don’t see what the issue here is. i'm not really saying they can't have their dorm, that's not my place to say, what i am saying is, if they then get their dorm, they will lose out on their chance to effect actual, potent change.

 

 

 

 

“Seeing as someone can request not to have to share a dorm with a gay roommate, and it gets allowed, not sure why this is such a terrible thing. It's just a separate dorm, which doesn't keep them from interacting with whoever they choose. They aren't hiding, it's just a respite for the bad times.”

 

One is a request for their room placement, the other is a request for an entire segregated dorm. See the difference? One at least doesn’t expect their own building. And in both cases, it’s an approach that only serves to fuel the ignorance of both parties. I’m almost as against the other one as I am this one, but in the separate dorm case, you are at least sharing your building, and your neighbor might be gay, so you still may deal with it on a daily-weekly basis.

 

If rocks are thrown then that’s not going to stop just from separate dorms, in fact, it would only make the throwers feel more justified in attacking the “other”. It does not remove the “other” status, it just makes them more obvious. Reporting can solve it, and if you have enough people, fighting back is an option as well.

 

"People love to preach the idea "Just go about things like normal and it'll seem normal" but it just doesn't work like that. It's different for everyone of course but that often doesn't work. Because either you have to never mention the sexuality, or you do, and suddenly things are different anyway. Because you can't say that separating it like this increases the divide. It doesn't. The divide is up to the individual. Many people who would think of being in a different dorm makes you different would think the same if it's the same dorm, but an openly gay person."

I never said that. And I never would say that, I’m saying get over the apparent victim complex. Everybody gets s*** and everybody can get s*** on. It’s always complicated, but hiding does not solve the problem, and yes, building a completely separate dorm is hiding, no matter how it’s sugarcoated. And who cares if your secret gets out? If people are going to treat you different because you’re gay, f*** them literally. Separating people by sexual orientation, by the very definition, increases the divide between them. You are not comingling, and as a result, you cannot establish your presence as normal to anybody who would object to your presence.  

 

 

tired of quoting, i assume you know the parts i'm responding to.

 

It’s not about the cause, it’s about the people, separating them isn’t a good thing in the long run, it’s just going to keep peoples biases reinforced, you can’t say you want people to understand you, or vice versa, if you aren’t even willing to live in the same building as them. This was a call for an entirely seprate building, that is not a step towards understanding, it just means they don’t want to even attempt to engage the problem fully.

 

Yeah, your dad might harm you, but if that’s all it takes for him to want to inflict real harm upon you, then he’s s***. It’s that simple, and that goes for everybody else. they might grow out of it one day, but until that day, they are s***. If they don’t want to accept you, that’s one thing, you can fix that with time, but stop fearing, or caring about people who want to harm you based solely off of sexual orientation. Mother, father, sister, brother, friend, family, ect… if that’s all it takes for them to lose all the love and respect they have for you, then they aren’t important. Same goes for the dorms, there’s going to be shitty people, who cares, they come with the good ones, separating yourself will only make the trenches deeper,  learn to live with them, they might not like you, but you’ll make far more friends than enemies in most cases. And while the enemies you make when you take the separate dorm won’t change at all, you’ll lose out on all the new people you could meet by living in the regular dorms.

 

It’s the mentality that’s an issue, it’s the fact that it will in effect, alienate more people than it will include, on both sides. There are biases on both sides, and people going out with flyers saying “gays aren’t as bad as you think” will do nothing to alleviate those biases. I had a ton of biases against gay people, and then I actually talked with, and lived near, people who I knew were wonderful people FAR before I learned what pair of pants they preferred to penetrate. And those kinds of interactions will be drastically reduced if said dormitory segregation comes into play.

“it’s hiding” is essentially what it boils down to though. this is about people who don’t even want to live in the same building as people who aren’t homosexual. And yet they think they could ever bridge any form of gap? That’s not only ignorant, it’s cowardice. They aren’t willing to risk anything, yet they want to be acknowledged? Nope, that’s not how you get people over to your side, they aren’t even willing to live with people who are different or that they see differently, how can they ask for acceptance from those who see them as different?

 

It’s been tried before, on multiple continents, with multiple backgrounds of people, it wasn’t always gays, but it was always a failure. If you (not you) aren’t even willing to come together, instead actively asking to be separated, then how in the hell do you (not you) expect me or anybody else to see you as my equal?  That is why I’m against it, of you won’t even handle reality as it is, then what right do you have to ask me to change it for you? This is not the hetero group kicking out the gays, this is the gays kicking out themselves, and in light of that, what reason does the hetero group have to include the people who are excluding themselves?

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Hmm how about saying it this way.

 

It's easy to say that you can just not care/ignore what others think, etc etc. But in practice, especially for school age people, it's not as easy.

It sounds good.
It sounds really really good. What you said. All of that, I want to accept it. And that's why I'm posting.
Because that kind of logic of "funk them" is so very appealing. People will be drawn to it, and want to agree, because it sounds so good.

But it doesn't work, not in real life.

Online I can say a lot of things. irl...not so much.

It's not simply a "They are mean" thing. There so many things that people do to belittle, demean, hurt, injure, mock, and generally make it harder for people.

And while I'd love to be able to brush everything off, and personally I can a lot, not everyone can. Which is okay, well...it's understandable.

And that's the thing. Some people can take being insulted to their face, vile vile things being said, and even hurt. Others hear these things and automatically react with a "I need to hide, maybe there's something wrong with me" etc etc. Not their fault completely in a lot of cases.

Asking someone to "toughen up" doesn't work. And the worry people have that it will make them weaker overall hasn't actually happened. There's not really much honestly indicating that, on a singular personal level, being made to "just deal with it" helps a person's mental state. For some yes. For others they think so, but dig deeper and you'll find the cracks.

 

That being said.

I do get that it seems to be making more of a divide. But my experiences say that it doesn't. Many cases it actually seems to make people look at it as "Huh, they're being acknowledged, I wonder what they have to say". As in, it brings attention, while giving the people a place to not be the center of attention...er...

Because they have a place to relax, but now it's more noticeable, so when they go out to spread awareness etc, they get more attention and can spread to more people.

 

And think of it this way. If someone feels justified hating someone because of a separation like this, then there is a good chance that person would find a justification anyway.

 

Also claiming they aren't willing to risk anything is very false, trust me...That honestly really bothers me, there's no reason to say that, and it generalizes and belittles an entire group.

 

The biggest thing to remember, as I said several times...so...

 

They aren't separate really. They're in a different dorm, but they interact with people outside of it frequently, and even in many cases more often than those who don't have this kind of place.

 

A lot of people don't even interact with people in their dorm specifically, besides a couple friends, on even not separated dorms. It isn't as though a dorm is a different world.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I mean if they are having trouble, perhaps with harassment and such, offering some form of voluntary isolation is reasonable, right? It creates a space where they know their views and lifestyle are understood and respected, allowing them to live better in a confusing and stressful time in their life. Honestly, people can be funking vicious, especially at college age, and if those affected think this could help them out, I'm not going to tell them they are wrong. I mean, from what cow (who seems to be the only one here with knowledge of actual implementation of such a system) says, this setup provides much more help than it does harm.

[vla1ne]

Hmm how about saying it this way.

 

It's easy to say that you can just not care/ignore what others think, etc etc. But in practice, especially for school age people, it's not as easy.

It sounds good.

It sounds really really good. What you said. All of that, I want to accept it. And that's why I'm posting.

Because that kind of logic of "f*** them" is so very appealing. People will be drawn to it, and want to agree, because it sounds so good.

But it doesn't work, not in real life.

Online I can say a lot of things. irl...not so much.

It's not simply a "They are mean" thing. There so many things that people do to belittle, demean, hurt, injure, mock, and generally make it harder for people.

And while I'd love to be able to brush everything off, and personally I can a lot, not everyone can. Which is okay, well...it's understandable.

And that's the thing. Some people can take being insulted to their face, vile vile things being said, and even hurt. Others hear these things and automatically react with a "I need to hide, maybe there's something wrong with me" etc etc. Not their fault completely in a lot of cases.

Asking someone to "toughen up" doesn't work. And the worry people have that it will make them weaker overall hasn't actually happened. There's not really much honestly indicating that, on a singular personal level, being made to "just deal with it" helps a person's mental state. For some yes. For others they think so, but dig deeper and you'll find the cracks.

 

That being said.

I do get that it seems to be making more of a divide. But my experiences say that it doesn't. Many cases it actually seems to make people look at it as "Huh, they're being acknowledged, I wonder what they have to say". As in, it brings attention, while giving the people a place to not be the center of attention...er...

Because they have a place to relax, but now it's more noticeable, so when they go out to spread awareness etc, they get more attention and can spread to more people.

 

And think of it this way. If someone feels justified hating someone because of a separation like this, then there is a good chance that person would find a justification anyway.

 

Also claiming they aren't willing to risk anything is very false, trust me...That honestly really bothers me, there's no reason to say that, and it generalizes and belittles an entire group.

 

The biggest thing to remember, as I said several times...so...

 

They aren't separate really. They're in a different dorm, but they interact with people outside of it frequently, and even in many cases more often than those who don't have this kind of place.

 

A lot of people don't even interact with people in their dorm specifically, besides a couple friends, on even not separated dorms. It isn't as though a dorm is a different world.

it's not easy to ignore people, i'll grant that, but that does not change the fact that that is how it should go in these kinds of cases. i'm not saying it because it sounds nice, i'm saying it because that's been the best solution in practically every situation that i've been in with people who hate you for one small detail or another. outside of physical violence, what is there to fear? words might sting, but they only hold as much sway as you are willing to give them, and taking a completely separate dorm not only gives them sway, it hides the people who need those interactions the most.

 

again, if people want to demean you, that's one thing, but when you need an entirely different building to get away from them, that's partly your own weakness, and it harms relations more than it helps them. it's not only the worst option, it's the weakest option, because if somebody cannot take said problems, then a gays only dorm will just not change that. gays can be just as vicious in just as many ways as any straight bigots can. you're merely exchanging overall issues again, it's still hiding, it's not an escape. it's not just straight people who bully, and it's not a good solution. you think it'll be any better if it's just gays together? it not only doesn't solve the problem, it merely allows new ones to foster. you are asking to grant segregation, and once segregated, the pecking order will merely change, not vanish. 

 

toughen up might not work for everybody, but it is the most effective solution available. toughen up doesn't just mean take abuse, it also means find and learn all sides of the fence. shoot back as hard, if not harder. and find ways to get along without the constant need for special treatment. you're right, not everybody can do it, but those who can't aren't going to get any better just by cutting them off from their options to do so. sure people may protest, but when have you gained a lasting impression from a protest, rally, demonstration, or any other manner of exhibition? it's rare, and many times the effect doesn't last long.

 

college is one of the places where differing ideas clash daily, homosexuality is no different from any other one of those ideas. it clashes with others, and as a result, many sides come out more well rounded. asking for segregation is counterproductive to this point. but even further than that, tell me, when has separating people ever caused more unity? at any point in history, have people become more united when those with differences decided to section themselves off? no. never, it creates a false peace that hurts far more than the truth when it gets broken open. this is no different. except that it's the minority asking to be separated. it's not about attention, they shouldn't be looking for people to let them know they're queer, that's not a good course of action because it does not effectively breach the category of "they are just like us" that people have. it can, but it will be far slower, and far less striking/permanent that realizing the guy you know across the hall turns out to be homosexual.

 

one is more often than not "those gay guys aren't so bad" while the other puts both a permanent name and a face on the people involved before their orientation is ever a question. the requested dorm puts a label on you before you ever open your mouth, and as is always said, first impressions matter. your sexual orientation should never be part of your first impression, it is part of who you are, but it should not be how you define yourself. a dorm based soley upon said orientation does exactly that.

 

when you think of anything that changes your mind for the better, is it a group of people you don't know, or is it the ones you've gotten personal with? that is what the dorm separation does, it removes too much of the up close and personal. being gay, straight, or whatever else is not something that you need to broadcast, be it by dorm or whatever other manner. it's something that people simply learn about after they get to know you. my opinion on gay people, and many of the people i know whose minds were changed, were not changed because of some people spouting activism, they were changed by the people we got close to, whom we later learned were gay. the order should not be that "gay guy jim is an alright guy" it should be "Jims an alright guy" and broadcasting beforehand cannot do this as effectively as letting it sink in slowly. as for the bullies part, that's mostly irrelevant, they will exist dorm or no dorm, and the separate dorm will only serve to further reinforce their stereotypes. 

 

i don't doubt that some of them might interact quite a bit with others, but it is not the same as living in the same place, and it is still volunteered segregation. it does not help the cause if you are not willing to share the same building. this is literally what people with bigoted ideas are asking for, and now they don't even have to work for it, college students are doing it themselves. it's not only giving them what they want, it's removing yourself from the picture to such an extent that you perpetually become the "other"

 

 

I mean if they are having trouble, perhaps with harassment and such, offering some form of voluntary isolation is reasonable, right? It creates a space where they know their views and lifestyle are understood and respected, allowing them to live better in a confusing and stressful time in their life. Honestly, people can be f***ing vicious, especially at college age, and if those affected think this could help them out, I'm not going to tell them they are wrong. I mean, from what cow (who seems to be the only one here with knowledge of actual implementation of such a system) says, this setup provides much more help than it does harm.

 people of all walks have to take harassment, i'm not saying that it's right, or that homosexuals take more or less of it that other people, but there has been no time in history where segregating people has led to a favorable outcome in the long run. it only ever leads to more segregation down the line, and there have been multiple points in history where segregation has been the attempted tool to fix things, be it religion, sexual orientation, race, or any other manner of difference. it never works for long. and i will tell them they're wrong, because there has been no point in history where it has been the right option, and i have no doubt that that trend of it being the wrong idea will continue. making a strong impression before sexual orientation becomes a question is the best path, ad while i understand it's not always possible, the option of separation has never been the right choice.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Say the system, if it was introduced right now to act as a place of temporary respite from judgment for the LGBT community, say it works and for this generation of college students purely beneficial things, giving them a place to be themselves without taking harassment and such, and they are still progressive and open the rest of the time. How do you keep that from changing? 

 

How do you keep it from seemingly like X minority group gets more favour than the others, that in time it doesn't foster resentment, or entitlement. That it doesn't hamper the efforts to slowly reduce discrimination to just arseholes being arseholes rather than legitimate hate groups and such, by drawing this line between groups of people and giving seeming favour to one group? How do you, as Zaul says in the opening, keep an 'us vs them' view from developing in the long term?  How do you keep it from being segregation? 

 

Because I don't see how you can advocate for equality whilst also advocating for X group to get a form of preferential treatment? Because imagine if you took this idea to all different groups - If you had a dorm for Blacks, or for Asians, or Christians or Jews. How do you keep that from distorting people's world views? Or keep the groups not given this treatment from getting resentment towards the different treatment? How do you keep something like 3rd wave feminists from being brought out by this?

 

So I would love to hear ideas as to how you give preferential treatment to a minority and not compromise the equality movement over a long period of time. 

 

Because whilst we are on the topic of 'How the world is/how the world should be', something has been shown time and time again is that building tolerance and respect of something in a culture comes from the integration of cultures and ideas to reduce fear and to humanise the issue. Not segregating the issue to allow one side to feel better 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

It's less "preferred treatment" more "equalizing non-preferred treatment" from what I can tell. Cause it was implemented as a potential solution to harassment and abuse being seen in colleges. (For instance, people being dragged from their dorm rooms after "coming out". An extreme case but something that has happened multiple times.)

Maybe not the best way to go about it but it's, like everything else, a test. And a step in a direction. Writing it off isn't doing any good. It's done good things, some bad, but also good. So people will need to evaluate the overall harm vs good.

 

It's not as if they get really any perks for this after all.

 

And I still think you're exaggerating things somewhat. It isn't locking them away, they're still very much on the campus, and very much involved with the other students. People who will look at them as "other" will do so regardless of building. It may give them an "excuse" but it's a flimsy excuse and, in my opinion, it helps more people than not.

 

But I just got back from a volunteer thing where the radio the boss lady had on was on some radio station where some dude was straight up mocking LGBT rights for three hours, so I'm not entirely in the mood to discuss things more today.

But wanted to say I'm glad that everyone's so chill about this. I respect that.

[Slinky]

LGBT is...?

[Catman25]

I mean if they are having trouble, perhaps with harassment and such, offering some form of voluntary isolation is reasonable, right? It creates a space where they know their views and lifestyle are understood and respected, allowing them to live better in a confusing and stressful time in their life. Honestly, people can be funking vicious, especially at college age, and if those affected think this could help them out, I'm not going to tell them they are wrong. I mean, from what cow (who seems to be the only one here with knowledge of actual implementation of such a system) says, this setup provides much more help than it does harm.

 

I think this is the mentality we need to have.

 

My university approached this type of situation like this: have gender-inclusive housing, where students can voluntarily choose to live. It's situated in the middle of a hall with other students, meaning it was not advertised as an isolated hall; there was no intention to completely segregate these two groups. It provides a space for students, who, as Giga mentioned, might be in the midst of a confusing time in their lives. They don't have to worry about rooming with disagreeable roommates. It also creates a support network of people who've been in the same position before, which is invaluable.

 

I would've thought safety to be a top priority. And as long as both sides are active in their attempts to assimilate, I don't see why this should be an issue.

[vla1ne]

no it isn't equalizing, it's giving an entirely separate dorm to people. that is not equality,  the unpopular kids who get bullied don't get their own dorm for being unpopular, no matter how severe. they have to report it and find ways to handle what the authorities can't, be it via changing dorms or other means. the bigots who hate gays don't get their own "straight only" dorms, even though it would in effect wield the exact same results as a "gays only" dorm. in extreme cases, such as dragging students out of their dorms, filing for the expulsion of the offender(s) is a possibility just as well. it removes the bigots via legal means and cannot under any lens be considered special treatment.

 

it is not a test, this method has been tried, multiple times throughout history in multiple cultures for gods know how many reasons, they have all failed as a solution to bridge the gap. yes, in the short term it can be effective, but that success will only last for a single generation tops. separating people, by its' very nature is only ever a temporary solution.

 

the perk is an entire dormitory. that might not seem like much, but think about it for a second, that means that homosexuals have an entire dormitory that they can go to, just for them, for no other reason than they claim to feel threatened (whether or not there is an actual threat is irrelevant in this context). you don't think that's going to cause problems down the line when people look at it? 

 

it's similar, it's telling them that the problems they have can be hidden from instead of confronted, that is not the mentality that people need to have if they plan to get by in the world at large. people in the past have protested, fought, and died to be included equally, and this is just a step backwards, it's attempt to separate people based upon nothing more than sexual orientation. it is extremely difficult to get across how bad of an idea this s for the long run. it is a short terms solution that has the potential to backfire spectacularly upon any attempt at re-integrating said homosexuals back into a normal dormitory (or indeed into modern society, where that kind or separation has finally been abolished).

 

so some guy on the radio railed for hours on how bad homosexuality is, that's life, not everybody agrees with you, the trick is finding the points you can agree on and bringing the rest around at a later time. i have people i butt heads with regularly irl and online and even with all of that, i try to find common ground between others to bring them together. this kind of separation is the complete antithesis to how i do everything. people getting comfortable with being separated into dorms by orientation will only cause more problems down the line in many walks of life.

 

 

As for the sexual orientation based housing, that is vastly different than optional harassment based housing. In one case it separates an entire demographic from the other ones over a single difference, while the other is for all people of any angle to come together and support each other voluntarily, no matter the differences. In the first case, there is a clear line of separation, in the other, it brings people with many backgrounds together voluntarily based upon any manner of criteria. people in the second category will still be learning from other incredibly varied backgrounds, and while the separation is somewhat similar to the first, it includes all people of any orientation, meaning it becomes far less segregation based than the campaign in the article.

 

i would support optional harassment support housing, but i will not support (even though i don't care to stop) segregated housing based upon sexual orientation. i don't think either is all that productive, but the first one at least retains many merits for the long term, while the second removes many potential positive encounters. i don't care for either one of them as i think people are getting too soft skinned, but if i were to choose one, there is a clear difference in the merits of the two.

[VCR_CAT]

So, if I'm getting this right, Vla1ne is against this system not because of any reasonable negative to its implementation, but because he thinks people should suck it up and deal with it? First off, you're kind of out of line in what you may or may not understand what it's like to really be in their shoes, but there are solid merits to having separate housing/floors based on sexual orientation that you're sweeping under the rug for either poor ideals or vague reasoning. Buddy, just walk away from this one before it gets ugly.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I disagree with all of that post, basically, V-man. Sorry.

As for the radio thing. That was me explaining why I didn't want to deal with this crap right now and didn't want to put too much into the discussion beyond what I said, so it's kinda low blow to bring that in as if it's part of the argument. So more/less.

I don't think I have anything more to say. I think you're wrong, and you're not saying anything new at this point.

So it's time to stop for me.

[vla1ne]

So, if I'm getting this right, Vla1ne is against this system not because of any reasonable negative to its implementation, but because he thinks people should suck it up and deal with it? First off, you're kind of out of line in what you may or may not understand what it's like to really be in their shoes, but there are solid merits to having separate housing/floors based on sexual orientation that you're sweeping under the rug for either poor ideals or vague reasoning. Buddy, just walk away from this one before it gets ugly.

let's play reading comprehension shall we?

 

" not because of any reasonable negative to its implementation"

so the segregation of people based upon sexual preference instead of the attempt to increase inclusion is unreasonable? alright then. and i've already explained to you that actually facing said problems through alternate means has proven throughout history to have the more powerful, and permanent effect.

 

and yes, i think people should suck it up, but in case you missed it, i also mentioned how every single time that a system like this has been implemented, it has widened the gap, not closed it, and as both i and aerion stated, the segregation does indeed qualify as preferential treatment based solely upon sexual preference (hence my above statement that the second option of harassment based housing is more understandable than sexuality based housing.)

 

and yes, i have stood with multiple people who were discriminated against, and i've even fought with them before over similar topics to this. i have role models and people i've supported from both sides of the argument, i'll gladly admit that i am not the absolute authority, but i am more than qualified as far as discriminatory experiences go discuss the topic.

 

the solid merits, as i've said before, are outweighed by the negatives, many of which i have listed in prior posts. 

 

I know that not all people can handle actual harrassment, and in my post just above you i laid out why even if i don't much care for either one the optional harrasment housing was the better idea in this situation, but I assume you simply missed those parts huh?

[Aerion Brightflame]

So, if I'm getting this right, Vla1ne is against this system not because of any reasonable negative to its implementation, but because he thinks people should suck it up and deal with it? First off, you're kind of out of line in what you may or may not understand what it's like to really be in their shoes, but there are solid merits to having separate housing/floors based on sexual orientation that you're sweeping under the rug for either poor ideals or vague reasoning. Buddy, just walk away from this one before it gets ugly.

 

He based his argument in several points from what I can see:

 

1) Historically segregating groups of people based on social or genetic factors (Usually beyond there control) generally hasn't ended well  consistent attempts at implementation.

 

2) That a group trying to fight for equality advocating a non equal measure kinda of undermines there ability to stand for equality. Because it implies 'One rule for us, another for them'

 

3) That giving people a safe place to run away from sexuality based harassment may imply all there problems can be hidden away from or not confronted. Which isn't a realistic approach to life, and is a bad precedent to set in what for most people is the first taste of social freedom from your family. 

 

Finally, an argument that I think needs to be said even if it makes me sound like a dick;

 

Being LGBT+ or whatever does not making your suffering greater than that of others. 

 

Harassment shelter housing based on sexuality is implying this. Because only your suffering is enough to get this kind of special treatment. It implies that the suffering of say a black man getting racial harassment is lesser than that of an LGBT teen. Or implying say someone who is bullied relentlessly for being say socially awkward can't have something like this. I know that that isn't the case, but it's the sort of s*** this applies. Is the guy with Terminal Cancer suffering less than the woman called a Dyke on the street? What about the guy in an abusive relationship? Or the woman with a history of being sexually abused? Where do you draw the line?

 

You simply cannot fight for equality and create a 'one rule for us and one rule them'. Because you, no matter how you suger coat it, will marginalise someone. 

 

Now, V1ane said that he was in loosely favour of optional harassment based housing. I'm sure most of us can agree on that being a fine idea (I think it borders a little on the side of being the regressive left, but that's me). But if you are doing it, make it a opportunity for everyone. Not one arbitrary f***ing group that you assign to be suffering more than others. 

 

Because if you do that, suddenly you are in a position where you have to start quantifying suffering when talking about who gets access to these kinds of support structures. Do you have an objective way of doing that? I doubt it, because there is no objective way to say who is suffering more or less at any given moment. So why is it a good idea to say to one group of people 'Oh you guys are suffering a lot, here's a safe space for you'. 

 

If you want to install the idea, make it open for everyone. 

 

Also, a word of advice - If you are going to call someones argument out of line, please list at least one counter argument of your own. It both a) Implies you actually read what he said, and b) means you are furthering the discussion. Not shutting it down because you dislike what the other side is saying.