Saudi Arabia strip Religious Police's right to arrest

[Aerion Brightflame]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/saudi-arabia-strips-religious-police-arresting-power-160413141418824.html

 

There's something very few people saw coming. Saudi Arabia is almost becoming a sane country. Except for the beheadings. But progress is progress, even if it's only legislative progress. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Are we really praising people for not being animals?

 

The fact that "religious police" exist at all is pretty funking shameful

 

"Their tactics have regularly been the subject of controversy, most recently in February when members were arrested for allegedly assaulting a young woman outside a Riyadh shopping mall, local media said at the time"

 

funking Wow

[ENMaker]

Are we really praising people for not being animals?

 

The fact that "religious police" exist at all is pretty funking shameful

 

funk sake like, what should the reaction be? Regardless of whether it should've been a thing to begin with, the fact that they are now stripping it of power is a good thing and there's no point not being happy with it just because the problem was allowed to exist in the first place.

[Maeriberii Haan]

still a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go for the country to be anywhere near sane.

 

A step's a step, but let's see if this is an actual change for the better or just something done to get appeal from other nations.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

still a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go for it to be anywhere near sane.

This...that's like saying we should praise Soviet Russia under Krushev for not being as bad as it was under Stalin

 

Saudi Arabia has stripped its religious forces of their powers to arrest, urging them to act "kindly and gently" in enforcing Islamic rules.

 

We have something like this in the US, it's called the Elastic clause and it let's congress pass just about w/e the funk it wants. This is nothing more than a cover, gently and kindly are all relative to an Islamic Theocracy and that brings us right back to the place where we started

 

 

Inb4 Laz likes every post someone makes against me regardless of merit of validity

[Aerion Brightflame]

 

Are we really praising people for not being animals?

 

The fact that "religious police" exist at all is pretty f***ing shameful

 

"Their tactics have regularly been the subject of controversy, most recently in February when members were arrested for allegedly assaulting a young woman outside a Riyadh shopping mall, local media said at the time"

 

f***ing Wow

 

We are praising progress. 

 

We know that Saudi Arabia is a s*** hole of human rights violations. We don't need to be reminded of it. 

 

The fact they are beginning to take steps to correct that is a good thing. As you know, women having the vote was when they did that. 

 

Change is a gradual progress if it wants to succeed. This is progress in the right direction, and that is worth praising so long as it continues. 

 

Praising this change does not mean we approve of how things are in the country. It does not mean they don't still have a tonne of things we could still improve upon. It does not mean this change is enough. It just means that we are rightfully praising one of the most backward and religiously conservative countries in the world trying to rectify that. 

 

It will not happen overnight randomly. It takes repeated tiny steps like this to change the populations views. So yes, they will still be 'animals' for years more. But they are actively trying to change it. 

 

Please try to understand that. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

And I don't think we should wait for years for them to finally grow a brain. They're executing innocent and god knows what else. Remember Nimr al-Nimr?

 

They need to either clean this sheet up to some standard in the near future or need to be put down (sanctions or better yet let Daesh have them)

 

You don't take your time when people are dying Tom

[Aerion Brightflame]

And I don't think we should wait for years for them to finally grow a brain. They're executing innocent and god knows what else. Remember Nimr al-Nimr?

 

They need to either clean this s*** up to some standard in the near future or need to be put down (sanctions or better yet let Daesh have them)

 

Because us destabilising nations in the middle-east has done wonders for it over the past 50 years. 

 

Maybe... just maybe, it's worth letting them try to do this themselves, so we don't cause further resentment, further warfare. 

 

And again; You can't make social changes on this scale successfully at a rapid pace. Because, the bigger the change the greater the opposition to said change. Look at how long it took western nations to accept Gay Marriage. It took a decade or two. Or hell, just racial rights. And then think how far right Saudi is compared to western nations, that's how big the scale it is. 

 

If you force it, you will create resentment to the government, and you know that's a bad thing in that region of the world. It's nothing to do with them having to 'grow a brain' and everything to do with having a very conservative religious culture in a violent area of the world. For comparison, I could make the remark 'We shouldn't have to wait for years for America to finally grow a brain and ban guns' - It is a very similar argument, something deeply ingrained in society that would take years of gradual societal change to actually fix. 

 

So again; We should be somewhat happy that progress is actually happening. Because it's the first step in a long long road. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Because us destabilising nations in the middle-east has done wonders for it over the past 50 years. 

 

Maybe... just maybe, it's worth letting them try to do this themselves, so we don't cause further resentment, further warfare. 

 

And again; You can't make social changes on this scale successfully at a rapid pace. Because, the bigger the change the greater the opposition to said change. Look at how long it took western nations to accept Gay Marriage. It took a decade or two. Or hell, just racial rights. And then think how far right Saudi is compared to western nations, that's how big the scale it is. 

 

If you force it, you will create resentment to the government, and you know that's a bad thing in that region of the world. 

 

So again; We should be somewhat happy that progress is actually happening. Because it's the first step in a long long road. 

We don't have to do anything Tom, if they want Islamic law, let them experience it. We need to follow Russia's lead and pull the funk out of the Middle East (outside of helping Israel). They're rip each other apart as long as we keep the area contained.They'll change on their own once Daesh starts beheading people. That's the only way to beat sense into these people

[chairman ali]

We don't have to do anything Tom, if they want Islamic law, let them experience it.

 

There is a difference between Islamic Law and Wahhabi Law. Again, you seem to be talking a whole lot about something you barely have information about.

 

Want to hear a nice story? It was never called Saudi Arabia, it was The Arabian Peninsula [Al-Jazeera Al-Arabiya]. When the western people came in, they elected a family, a disgusting family, and named the whole country after them. So it's your ancestors fault. If the west didn't jump in for the oil, Daesh wouldn't exist.

 

And you know what happened after the Saud family came to power? The funded some guy called Mohammad Bin-Abdulwahab to help them rule using his own laws, which they called "Islamic". In the Middle East however, we call Saudi a Wahabi dominant country. Well... only the sane Middle Easterns, the rest are clapping for Saudi. 

 

But anyway, back to the story. After Bin-Abdulwahab started giving out ridiculous laws, they demolished shrines of the Prophet's grandsons (which are not only holy to Shi'a Muslims but beautiful pieces of historical architecture that could leave westerners awestruck), they started outlawing people like Sheikh Nimr Al-Nimr, may god bless him and may he rest in peace, and basically killing of Shi'a Muslims. The funny part is that Mohammed Bin-Abdulwahab's brother wrote a book to refute all his ridiculous laws.

 

And to top this, most of Daesh aren't from the Middle East. There are a lot of fighters from Africa (Morocco and Algeria), and from the US and the EU, for reasons non-other than that they're following the Wahabi sect. Wahabism is the main reason for all these terrorists. Weed out the Wahabis and you'll see how peaceful the Muslim community is.

 

Do a little research on Wahabism and you'll see how disgusting it is. If you think the west is suffering from these people, you have no idea what they do to Shi'a Muslims.

 

A while ago a Shi'a scholar was visiting the Iraqi army. The commander told him that if you are called "Ali" (Ali is the name of the Prophet's successor in Shi'a ideology; the 4th caliph in Sunni ideology) they'd burn your body after you've been killed. And then he showed him the burned bodies.

 

Also, what your media doesn't show you is what the Syrian Army find after they win back any part of Syria. There are tons and tons of alcoholic beverages in the places where Daesh members have resided. I'm not quite sure where in Islam it is allowed to drink alcohol. So before blaming Islam for anything, you might want to do a thorough research of whom are fighting in this war.

 

And just to put it out there, the U.S has done more damage than help. Everytime they do an airstrike they "mistakenly" kill the country's army instead of ISIS. Sounds a bit fishy to me.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

So what it sounds like you're saying, Winter is.

 

They should have done this from the start.

The past is more important than the present.

And yet we should just let them do terrible things cause "that'll show them"?

 

Please, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

There is a difference between Islamic Law and Wahhabi Law. Again, you seem to be talking a whole lot about something you barely have information about.

 

Want to hear a nice story? It was never called Saudi Arabia, it was The Arabian Peninsula [Al-Jazeera Al-Arabiya]. When the western people came in, they elected a family, a disgusting family, and named the whole country after them. So it's your ancestors fault. If the west didn't jump in for the oil, Daesh wouldn't exist.

 

And you know what happened after the Saud family came to power? The funded some guy called Mohammad Bin-Abdulwahab to help them rule using his own laws, which they called "Islamic". In the Middle East however, we call Saudi a Wahabi dominant country. Well... only the sane Middle Easterns, the rest are clapping for Saudi. 

 

But anyway, back to the story. After Bin-Abdulwahab started giving out ridiculous laws, they demolished shrines of the Prophet's grandsons (which are not only holy to Shi'a Muslims but beautiful pieces of historical architecture that could leave westerners awestruck), they started outlawing people like Sheikh Nimr Al-Nimr, may god bless him and may he rest in peace, and basically killing of Shi'a Muslims. The funny part is that Mohammed Bin-Abdulwahab's brother wrote a book to refute all his ridiculous laws.

 

And to top this, most of Daesh aren't from the Middle East. There are a lot of fighters from Africa (Morocco and Algeria), and from the US and the EU, for reasons non-other than that they're following the Wahabi sect. Wahabism is the main reason for all these terrorists. Weed out the Wahabis and you'll see how peaceful the Muslim community is.

 

Do a little research on Wahabism and you'll see how disgusting it is. If you think the west is suffering from these people, you have no idea what they do to Shi'a Muslims.

 

A while ago a Shi'a scholar was visiting the Iraqi army. The commander told him that if you are called "Ali" (Ali is the name of the Prophet's successor in Shi'a ideology; the 4th caliph in Sunni ideology) they'd burn your body after you've been killed. And then he showed him the burned bodies.

 

Also, what your media doesn't show you is what the Syrian Army find after they win back any part of Syria. There are tons and tons of alcoholic beverages in the places where Daesh members have resided. I'm not quite sure where in Islam it is allowed to drink alcohol. So before blaming Islam for anything, you might want to do a thorough research of whom are fighting in this war.

 

And just to put it out there, the U.S has done more damage than help. Everytime they do an airstrike they "mistakenly" kill the country's army instead of ISIS. Sounds a bit fishy to me.

You sure as hell like to throw around the Ignorance card a lot don't you. Outside of me referring to the Saudi Interpretation of Islamic Law as Islamic Law, I don't see much of me targeting Islam as you seem intent on pinning on me. In fact I was the first person in this thread to mourn Nimr al-Nimr

 

 

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And I don't think we should wait for years for them to finally grow a brain. They're executing innocent and god knows what else. Remember Nimr al-Nimr?

 

They need to either clean this sheet up to some standard in the near future or need to be put down (sanctions or better yet let Daesh have them)

 

You don't take your time when people are dying Tom

 

 

 

Now I AM targeting Saudi Arabia, while my country too has the barbaric Death Penalty, I have always been very vocal about abolishing it. What the Saudi's are doing is worlds worse from Texas's filthy obsession with Lethal Injections. I am at least happy that we both agree that the current Saudi law is a revolting system (if I'm putting words in your mouth here, please correct me)

 

And this is where I'm confused.

 

Unfortunately you've touched a nerv here. First of all, you have no right to speak about my ancestors, I'm not the sheltered blue-eyed white boy who you're accusing me of being. My ancestors were Zoroastrians, know what happened to them? Arabs including Mohammad's companion Khalid ibn Walid, subjugated my people, first through economics and then through brutality when they gained enough of a foothold. Dear old Islam in it's finest largely erased my religion and forced most of us to flee to India. This wasn't Whabbism, this was Islam doing what Islam does best, intolerance. My ancestor's only interaction with the Arabs was to find a home under their feet. 

 

Saudi Arabia's rise to what it is today is a classical story of how Western Involvement has funked up the Middle East even more so that it original was, WHICH IS WHY, I said again and again that the US (and Europe) should pull out of the ME outside of our duty to protect Israel. We're not in disagreement here, until you saw fit to blame my entire linage for a set of decisions they had no role in playing.

 

Where did I say Daesh was largely made of Arabs? All I said is let Saudi Arabia deal with Daesh, a sentiment echo'd by our beloved Senator Sanders. Enough European and American Blood has been shed, and it's only making things worse. Let Saudi Arabia experience Daesh, and make up their mind on how to react from there. I have hope that seeing the true ugly side of Whabbism will make the Saudi people revolt against that kind of rule after Daesh has been put down. By cuddling every little improvement SA makes, we're not forcing them to adapt from their view.

 

I am blaming Saudi Arabia for their violence and barbaric here, I have my own personal anger towards Islam as a religion, but that was not the topic of discussion here before you decided my ancestor's graves needed to be overturned a little. I believe I've said this before, I don't believe in punishing the people from the outdated words in a text. I have no conflict with the peaceful Muslims, my only conflict is with Barbaric Islamic Extremism and the words in the Quran from which they justify their actions (be it wrong or not)

So what it sounds like you're saying, Winter is.

 

They should have done this from the start.

The past is more important than the present.

And yet we should just let them do terrible things cause "that'll show them"?

 

Please, please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I'm saying Saudi Arabia (which is what they are called now) will not change in any reasonable fashion if we applaud ever small step of humanity they achieve. The only way to fix them is to give them a jolt of the true form of Islam they are following, which is Daesh. Let them fight, and Saudi Arabia will realize on their own what path they have chosen

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Rapid and sudden growth and change will only result in a fragile change. In most things, taking things slowly, nurturing it, making sure it can be accepted by all as right, instead of being forced to accept it, is the only way of having true progress.

Peace must be brought through peace, and determination, not aggression and fear.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

not aggression and fear.

Not sure what you call the execution of Nimr then if not aggression and fear.

 

The only way the Saudis will learn is to first hand experience Daesh, and that can't happen as long as the US plays bodyguard

 

We need to pull the funk out of the ME and let them fight this mess out on their own.

 

In most cases I would agree with you Cow, but SA's Interp of Islamic law is hard to justify in anyway, it IS wrong. Simple as that mate

[chairman ali]

Winter, I read your post, I do apologise for presuming you were European blood. Nothing to discuss except for your claim that Khalid Bin Al-Waleed was a companion of the Prophet. As a Shi'a, I can clearly state that we don't see him as a companion nor do we like him nor do we give him any praise. His life is tainted. As well as the lives of many people who are called "companions".

 

The truth is, the companions of the prophet were very few [Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Hujr Ibn 'Uday Al-Kindi, Abu 'Thar, are a few names]. This is a historical debate that has been going on for centuries. Although I can see why you'd think Khaled Bin Waleed to be a companion (mainstream Islam), but it would be better to look into the different sides and their thoughts of these people.

 

If possible, PM the date that your people [Zoroastrians] were attacked by Muslims and I can happily discuss it with you.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

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Not sure what you call the execution of Nimr then if not aggression and fear.

 

The only way the Saudis will learn is to first hand experience Daesh, and that can't happen as long as the US plays bodyguard

 

We need to pull the funk out of the ME and let them fight this mess out on their own.

 

In most cases I would agree with you Cow, but SA's Interp of Islamic law is hard to justify in anyway, it IS wrong. Simple as that mate

I never said it wasn't aggression and fear. Sometimes I worry you don't actually read some of the things I say.

It's wrong, yes? You want it to change, yes?

Well then my post is still relevant.

Doing it that way will change it, certainly. But it won't be a change that will last. It won't be a change that will truly matter.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I never said it wasn't aggression and fear. Sometimes I worry you don't actually read some of the things I say.

It's wrong, yes? You want it to change, yes?

Well then my post is still relevant.

Doing it that way will change it, certainly. But it won't be a change that will last. It won't be a change that will truly matter.

"peace is brought through peace"

 

Wanna tell that to the Jews in WW2? Guess if we waited long enough things would have gotten peaceful. 

 

Wanna tell that to the Slaves on White plantations? Wanna tell that to all the Shi'a being executed for not being the right creed of Muslim?

 

Oh I read it, I just cannot believe you want us to apply appeasement to barbarians. They are so funking far below what is even reasonable that this tiny change merits 0 praise. 

 

You're not going to Ignite the people's frustration if you cuddle the government for every tiny improvement it makes. The Saudis can just point at all y'all clapping to say "hey we're not that bad"

 

There is no deterrence created from peace, but if you let the people experience first hand what their rules will devolve into (Daesh) then they will feel opposed to it.

 

Heads rolling = deterrence

 

Praise for moving from pig sheet to dog sheet is not. 

 

There IS a reason why Nazi Germany ended after WW2 and not after Appeasement

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

When someone is making advances, responding with hostility is not the way to go. It may be slow, but it's better than ruining it all by acting hastily.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

When someone is making advances, responding with hostility is not the way to go. It may be slow, but it's better than ruining it all by acting hastily.

We're not making any advances. No Westerners will make any move, we'll simply retreat for a while and let the current quo take it natural flow. Which is Daesh invading SA or the Saudis allying with Daesh. Both would give the people of Saudia Arabia a reason to revolt. 

I'm not sure if YOU are reading, historically just maintaining the quo does not work

 

And calmly applauding and maintaining it while Innocent lives are being robbed is not what we do

 

 

I've seen you say this like three times already, it's a bit unnecessary. Leave him be.

That's fair, redacted & removed, pm'd you my response and concern

 

sorry

[.Rai]

Keep it civil, guys.

 

@Laz hey mate, since you seem to agree with anyone who's not 100% in agreement with me, mind telling us what your position is, cause Ali and I sure as hell aren't on opposite sides here or could it just be you're silent repping anyone who marginally disagrees with me

I've seen you say this like three times already, it's a bit unnecessary. Leave him be.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

funk sake like, what should the reaction be? Regardless of whether it should've been a thing to begin with, the fact that they are now stripping it of power is a good thing and there's no point not being happy with it just because the problem was allowed to exist in the first place.

It's counterproductive to praise them. And it's honestly simple why.

 

You have the government being oppressive and for the longest time said government has supporting an even more oppressive task force.

 

The government just now (after the R-police have basically been doing things that nobody can defend), sighed and stripped them of their power to arrest.

 

If the west applauds, what message does that send to the people under Saudi control? Firstly it will show we approve of the change, but secondly it will seem like we approve of SA.

 

These are people being terrorized for god sake, do you really think they will rationally analyze every word you say or do you think they'll see the west applauding their government

 

They'll view us as thinking what's currently going on as acceptable, which it's not even close to being so.

 

Letting Daesh interact with SA will reveal to the people what the true end result of Whabbism is, and then they will truly revolt.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Why would praise of an action mean praise of the entire system? Like to make an analogy - If I said to you, 'your hair looks great today', that does not mean I am praising or accepting of you if you are murdering children in your spare time. 

 

We praised Saudi Arabia when they made social progress by giving women the vote. It was fantastic progress for one of the least gender equal countries in the world. Why is an action that starts to separate church from state so different? If praise means the government will continue to make social advancements, what is the problem? 

 

And again; Can you actual tell me why this, just the fact that the religious police have less power, is not something we should be happy about? Not why Saudi having them is a travesty, or why Saudi is still decades behind socially, or that it doesn't go far enough but why just this action is a bad thing by the government?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Why would praise of an action mean praise of the entire system? Like to make an analogy - If I said to you, 'your hair looks great today', that does not mean I am praising or accepting of you if you are murdering children in your spare time. 

 

We praised Saudi Arabia when they made social progress by giving women the vote. It was fantastic progress for one of the least gender equal countries in the world. Why is an action that starts to separate church from state so different? If praise means the government will continue to make social advancements, what is the problem? 

 

And again; Can you actual tell me why this, just the fact that the religious police have less power, is not something we should be happy about? Not why Saudi having them is a travesty, or why Saudi is still decades behind socially, or that it doesn't go far enough but why just this action is a bad thing by the government?

Simple Tom, it's about perception. The fact we're applauding an oppressive government speaks a lot louder than the nity grity of what we're praising them for.

 

The change in SA needs to occur fast and the only way for that to happen is for the people to revolt. Slow changes work sure, but you can't bring back all the innocent lives lost. Letting them experience Daesh for just a short time will knock sense into them about the regime the live under

 

We can be happy about it sure, but showing that happiness in praise of the Saudi's is counterproductive 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

You seem to believe that people are so simple that they would see praise of one aspect as accepting the entire thing. That just doesn't make sense. Not many people are actually going to think that. Or at least not enough to make a difference.

Like what do you expect to happen? We praise this one thing and everyone suddenly goes "Oh my gosh, they must be perfect people!"?

It's really confusing trying to figure out where this is coming from.

[Shalltear Bloodfallen]

Simple Tom, it's about perception. The fact we're applauding an oppressive government speaks a lot louder than the nity grity of what we're praising them for.

 

The change in SA needs to occur fast and the only way for that to happen is for the people to revolt. Slow changes work sure, but you can't bring back all the innocent lives lost. Letting them experience Daesh for just a short time will knock sense into them about the regime the live under

 

We can be happy about it sure, but showing that happiness in praise of the Saudi's is counterproductive 

 

Yeah, because the Arab Spring had some damn fine results, didnt it?

The Syrian Civil War in particular has been going on for years at this point already, and I dont even wanna think about how many innocents it has claimed already.

 

(And before anyone decides to jump on me about it, no I'm not saying the revolts and civil uprisings were a bad thing. I'm merely saying a "revolution" isnt a be all end all solution with zero cost and time involved)

 

And I seriously do not understand your argument.

 

We're not saying "Ok you're cool now, go back to whatever you were doing".

We're saying "This is a step in the right direction. Please keep going"