Islam

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntv3a80RGiw

 

I don't agree with a lot of what this man says, but Killing Women for being raped does sound like a bad idea for me.

 

I guess, the point of this is, at what point are we not allowed to criticize, because it'll upset someone.

 

I get that we need to be mindful of people, but sticking our head in the dirt isn't being mindful of them either 

[ENMaker]

I've never seen a Christian group wanting to enact biblical law or anything like that. And then there's this, where in the surveyed nations outside Europe the lowest support for Sharia law becoming the law of the nation is 29%, still almost a third of the Muslim population. So, you know. That's clearly not a good thing.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I've never seen a Christian group wanting to enact biblical law or anything like that. And then there's this, where in the surveyed nations outside Europe the lowest support for Sharia law becoming the law of the nation is 29%, still almost a third of the Muslim population. So, you know. That's clearly not a good thing.

See that's what I'm talking about. To a vast majority of people, you putting out that simple statistic ='s fear mongering phobia. 

 

At what point does facts supersede emotional responses is the question I'm asking

[epicmemesbro]

I've never seen a Christian group wanting to enact biblical law or anything like that. And then there's this, where in the surveyed nations outside Europe the lowest support for Sharia law becoming the law of the nation is 29%, still almost a third of the Muslim population. So, you know. That's clearly not a good thing.

The puritan's, whom people claim are proof that this Christian was founded as a Christian one, had a code of law no different from that. Then again this country was also founded by some tobacco growing folk that tried to make large amounts of cash. As for in Europe, some of those countries cater way too much and are too comfy towards those cultures in my opinion.

[ENMaker]

See that's what I'm talking about. To a vast majority of people, you putting out that simple statistic ='s fear mongering phobia. 

 

At what point does facts supersede emotional responses is the question I'm asking

 

I'd have thought facts should always supercede emotional responses in this kind of situation. I mean, against those numbers what can actually be said.

 

 

The puritan's, whom people claim are proof that this Christian was founded as a Christian one, had a code of law no different from that. Then again this country was also founded by some tobacco growing folk that tried to make large amounts of cash. As for in Europe, some of those countries cater way too much and are too comfy towards those cultures in my opinion.

 

"had"

 

Because it's gone now. And nobody's looking for it to come back. Meanwhile, 99% of Afghanistani Muslims would support Sharia law become the law of the nation. Point still stands that I've never seen any Christians looking to implement biblical law and you've just cited a 16th century group while this is something happening now.

[vla1ne]

Meanwhile, 99% of Afghanistani Muslims would support Sharia law become the law of the nation. Point still stands that I've never seen any Christians looking to implement biblical law and you've just cited a 16th century group while this is something happening now.

 

just to jump in a small bit, the top statistic is 81%, not 99%. it's still far higher than any other Abrahamic religion, but it's better to cite the exact number when making the argument so you can't be accused of exaggerating.

 

EDIT: as proven below, this comment was me missing the correct chart. it really IS that high, so i apologize.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

just to jump in a small bit, the top statistic is 81%, not 99%. it's still far higher than any other Abrahamic religion, but it's better to cite the exact number when making the argument so you can't be accused of exaggerating.

I could downgrade that number to 20% and I'd still be accused of islamophobia by 9 people for every one that I got to open their eyes

 

If I criticize Michael Vick, it's not cause he's black, it's cause he electrocuted gods

 

If I criticize Islam for having backwards beliefs, it's not cause they're not Christian or w/e "superior" religion, it's cause they execute women for being raped....

 

[vla1ne]

I could downgrade that number to 20% and I'd still be accused of islamophobia by 9 people for every one that I got to open their eyes

 

Islam in a tiny tiny minority now, and you already have the head CAIR saying he would like the US to be an Islamic state someday...what do you think would happen when they're not a tiny minority?

 

It's baffling to me that people actually think that Islam and the progressive movement have overlap. This is a perfect example of my enemies enemy is my freind with conservatives being that enemy...but as all alliances with that logic, once the enemy is gone, you turn on your "new" friends

 

But you cannot say that anymore cause it's "incorrect" even if it may be factually correct

Not going to completely object, but something i learned over years of arguing fact (i do this a lot more offline than online though, so it may not be applicable here) is that it doesn't matter whether or not you're accused of being somethingphobic/sexist/racist or whatever else, stating the facts properly will sway those on the fence more often than simply exaggerating the statistics. people can call you whatever they like, but if you're backed by facts, and you're using them correctly, then the only thing they'll ever have is name calling.

 

even if you downgrade it to 20% you can still contrast it to the statistics of other prominent abrahamic religions worldwide, and the fact is, that (theoretical) 20% is blowing s*** up, shooting people, Kidnapping, raping people, and executing people, at a vastly disproportionate rate. therefore, even at 20% it's an unacceptable statistic, and you can easily fire back that those calling you islamophobic are inadvertently supporting practices that they would otherwise find reprehensible. insults are a two way street, both sides can use them to equal effect. facts are (usually) not like that. If you've got facts on your side then quoting them properly destroys any credible opposition. have you ever tried to win an argument using nothing but insults and accusations? It turns the conversation into something that only a elementary school child would be proud of.

 

In short, if you've got facts on your side, please use them right, it removes multiple forms of legitimate criticism from your opponents argument before they even exist, and makes for a more powerful and far harder to break argument overall. calling somebody islamophobic is far easier when they exaggerate facts rather than when they use them accurately. not trying to insult anybody here, just saying.

 

EDIT: i stand by the above statements, but he was not wrong. so they do not apply here.

[ENMaker]

just to jump in a small bit, the top statistic is 81%, not 99%. it's still far higher than any other Abrahamic religion, but it's better to cite the exact number when making the argument so you can't be accused of exaggerating.

 

"In South Asia, high percentages in all the countries surveyed support making sharia the official law, including nearly universal support among Muslims in Afghanistan (99%)."

 

 

Are we looking at the same thing?

[vla1ne]

"In South Asia, high percentages in all the countries surveyed support making sharia the official law, including nearly universal support among Muslims in Afghanistan (99%)."

 

 

Are we looking at the same thing?

ok. i missed that chart apparently and thought you were quoting one of the interpretations. i apologize for my first comment and will eat those words. also, god damn. that's insane.

[Shalltear Bloodfallen]

 

Just gonna chime in here and say this is at least 3 year old statistics, as when I backtrace the image in question I find articles from 2013 using it as a refference point. Also this says nothing about if it they actually support it being applied to muslim's and non-muslims alike

 

When it comes to whether shariah should apply to Muslims and non-Muslims, alike, in only a few countries majorities endorse this notion. Pew reports that this phenomenon exists most prominently in the Middle East and North Africa

 

"The belief that sharia should extend to non-Muslims is most widespread in the Middle East and North Africa, where at least four-in-ten Muslims in all countries except Iraq (38 percent) and Morocco (29 percent) hold this oppinion," Pew explains. "Egyptian Muslims (74 percent) are the most likely to say it should apply to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, while 58 percent in Jordan hold this view."

Still pretty bad but not as alarming

(do note this is from the same article, meaning this is also atleast 3 years old)

Also only note about their sample size I can find say 38,000. So we're still making a assumption that the No side wont outweigh the Yay side when it truly matters.

 

And I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on the bit about "there being no Christians looking to implement biblical law", however I'm way to lazy to look for a specific example atm.

[Aix]

A problem is that these kind of facts are easily fabricated, biased, or just distorted by word of mouth.

[Shalltear Bloodfallen]

A problem is that these kind of facts are easily fabricated, biased, or just distorted by word of mouth.

 

And that. I'm just giving it the benefit of doubt once I saw it's originally (supposedly) from the Pew Research Center, who from my understanding would have absolutely nothing to gain from fabricating the data or have it influenced by bias, but since it's not a direct quote it's still liable to being tampered with

[ENMaker]

Just gonna chime in here and say this is at least 3 year old statistics, as when I backtrace the image in question I find articles from 2013 using it as a refference point. Also this says nothing about if it they actually support it being applied to muslim's and non-muslims alike

 

When it comes to whether shariah should apply to Muslims and non-Muslims, alike, in only a few countries majorities endorse this notion. Pew reports that this phenomenon exists most prominently in the Middle East and North Africa

 

"The belief that sharia should extend to non-Muslims is most widespread in the Middle East and North Africa, where at least four-in-ten Muslims in all countries except Iraq (38 percent) and Morocco (29 percent) hold this opinion," Pew explains. "Egyptian Muslims (74 percent) are the most likely to say it should apply to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, while 58 percent in Jordan hold this view."

 

Still pretty bad but not as alarming

(do note this is from the same article, meaning this is also atleast 3 years old)

Also only note about their sample size I can find say 38,000. So we're still making a assumption that the No side wont outweigh the Yay side when it truly matters.

 

And I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on the bit about "there being no Christians looking to implement biblical law", however I'm way to lazy to look for a specific example atm.

 

I linked where it's from. Here it is again. As for it being 3 years old, so what? It's as recent as exists, that I'm aware of, and what change do you think is likely to have occurred anyway? A sample of 38,000 people is quite large, I don't see any problem taking that as a proportional representation of the nations as a whole. If you want to make a presumption that opposes the statistics based on thinking it's not enough then that's really no different to presuming it does apply.

 

And yes, the amount that want sharia enforced on non-muslims is lower. Like, ok? Though admittedly I was too ambiguous, it feels like you're deflecting away from the fact that anyone wanting to impose their religious code of conduct onto others is wrong by pointing out they don't all want to do it. I get that the initial statement I made wasn't clear enough and accept that it did need some clarification, but still.

 

[spoiler=this is a tangent]

 

Clearly this is an issue, I know you've not covered this or anything and I'm kind of veering off but for funk sake like, death penalty for leaving the religion. That this has any supporters let alone a majority in some cases shows that there exists an unhealthy attitude in what may be a sub-section of an enormous group but even a tiny fraction of 1.6 billion people is a significant number. 

 

 

 

It's easy to say something's bullshit if you do nothing else to attempt to extrapolate the claim so I'll just re-assert my own position - I've not seen any Christians wanting to implement biblical law in the modern world.

 

A problem is that these kind of facts are easily fabricated, biased, or just distorted by word of mouth.

 

That can be said about anything. Responding to statistics from a reputable organisation with "could be wrong m8" is pointless and only serves to derail whatever's being discussed by attacking the source instead of addressing what it says.

 

And that. I'm just giving it the benefit of doubt once I saw it's originally (supposedly) from the Pew Research Center, who from my understanding would have absolutely nothing to gain from fabricating the data or have it influenced by bias, but since it's not a direct quote it's still liable to being tampered with

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

 

It's straight from them. Everything I've posted has been direct quotes.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I'm sorry, I tend not to give things the benefit of the doubt when historically they execute women for being raped and think leaving their religion should be punishable by death

 

The difference between Islam and other religions is that, I can make a parody of Vishnu/Jesus/Buddha/Moses and I don't have to worry about those religions shooting me up. Not all religious intolerance is equal. Islam has insisted on staying backwards for nearly a thousand years now

 

2011 and 2013 too old for you?

 

Try 2015

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31293196

 

Now you may say that's not so bad, only 11% feel sympathy...how many people do you think it takes to execute an attack?

 

President Obama once said that the thing that keeps him up at night is Pakistan...the only Islamic State that is currently nuclear capable...

 

This number on the other hand is terrifying:

 

"The poll, carried out between 26 January and 20 February, suggests 32% of British Muslims were not surprised by January's attacks on the Charlie Hebdo satirical magazine, which published depictions of the Prophet, and a kosher supermarket in Paris"

 

Does that sound like a religion of peace to you?

 

A little closer to home:

 

CAIR spokesman Ibrahim Hooper: “I wouldn’t want to create the impression that I wouldn’t like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future" hmm I guess there's a couple ways to interpret that, but I think I can read that as promoting Theocracy, and these are supposed to be the "good" ones

[StellarNova]

I mostly agree with Maher on this one. As a german, this topic is close to my heart, as while germany has been spared from any major islamic terrorism for now, (though it is only a matter of time) there is a tangible islamic parallel culture already in place, and its effects are mortifying exactly because so little is known about its extent. My mother is a kind of uncommitted liberal, and she too worries more about the german new right and the conservatives. But these people dont run around shooting people in the streets! (Some Neo-Nazis actually did that, but their death toll was a dozen over years.) How high has the body count to rise before people get their hands out of the sand?

 

I have to agree with Sam Harris that there is something uniquely 'evil', for lack of a better term, about Islam. Even the worst elements of Christianity, like the Westboro Baptist Church, don't massacre their detractors. And even if the poll data was off, the picture is still depressing.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

KKK Lynched 3,446 Blacks in 86 Years..horrifying yes

 

The Nigerian Islamist extremist group Boko Haram killed 6,664 people in 2014, ...ONE GROUP...ONE YEAR

 

You literally cannot compare Islam and the KKK lol

 

 

Out of curiosity, 

 

Have any of you all so ardently defending Islam actually lived anywhere where they have more than a super-minority?

[Shalltear Bloodfallen]

The Nigerian Islamist extremist group Boko Haram killed 6,664 people in 2014, ...ONE GROUP...ONE YEAR

 

I rest my case

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I rest my case

You have no case, they killed nearly double the amount of people in one year relative to the main christian extremist group did in a century.

 

Islamic Extremism is a whole new level of evil relative to anything else we have seen. 

 

Then again that's not surprising when a vast majority of your holy text espouses intolerance. I ask again,

 

Have any of you all so ardently defending Islam actually lived anywhere where they have more than a super-minority?

[ENMaker]

I rest my case

 

What the actual fuck. If your case is that not every Muslim is a terrorist then well done you win. Congratulations on defeating the argument nobody made.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Islamic Extremism is a whole new level of evil relative to anything else we have seen. 

 

Then again that's not surprising when a vast majority of your holy text espouses intolerance. I ask again,

New level relative to anything we've seen seems...well, extreme to say.

It almost seems you're saying Lazarus' with the "your holy text" thing but I doubt that.

Also can you give me proof of this or are you just generalizing? It'd be nice to see if this huge statement can be backed up. To get the facts straight.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

I mostly agree with Maher on this one. As a german, this topic is close to my heart, as while germany has been spared from any major islamic terrorism for now, (though it is only a matter of time) there is a tangible islamic parallel culture already in place, and its effects are mortifying exactly because so little is known about its extent. My mother is a kind of uncommitted liberal, and she too worries more about the german new right and the conservatives. But these people dont run around shooting people in the streets! (Some Neo-Nazis actually did that, but their death toll was a dozen over years.) How high has the body count to rise before people get their hands out of the sand?

 

I have to agree with Sam Harris that there is something uniquely 'evil', for lack of a better term, about Islam. Even the worst elements of Christianity, like the Westboro Baptist Church, don't massacre their detractors. And even if the poll data was off, the picture is still depressing.

Stellar, what you have just said will not make you many friends here, but I wish to say that I agree 100% with what you just said.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

New level relative to anything we've seen seems...well, extreme to say.

It almost seems you're saying Lazarus' with the "your holy text" thing but I doubt that.

Also can you give me proof of this or are you just generalizing? It'd be nice to see if this huge statement can be backed up. To get the facts straight.

No, I'm sorry, I'll give you that Nazis, Communist China, Stalinist Russia and few others were worse 

 

Nah, your was the wrong word, I should have just said Quran

 

Proof of what? Aggressive commands? Like would you like a ratio of intolerance phrases in Quran:Bible:Torah:Vedas?

 

Cause I can get that number for you, but it might take time

 

 

Here are a few:

 

"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

 

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

 

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

 

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

 

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

 

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

 

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

 

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

 

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

 

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

 

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

 

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

 

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

 

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

 

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

 

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

 

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

 

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

 

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

 

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

 

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

 

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

 

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

 

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

 

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

 

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

 

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

 

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

 

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

 

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

 

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

 

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)

 

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

 

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

 

Balls in your court, find me that many from the bible or the other two major texts and I'll find you a few more from the Qur'an

 

Stellar, what you have just said will not make you many friends here, but I wish to say that I agree 100% with what you just said.

 

 

Think he atleast earned two today. And giving in the the majority just to be liked isn't something that should be the norm nor encouraged 

 

ie. Thank you

 

[ENMaker]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

 

136 attacks across 25 countries killing 1009 people and injuring 2096. In the past month.

[Dad]

Still a bit confused.  Are we condemning all of Islam, part of it, or. . .?

 

I can agree it is problematic.  But I'm not gonna say we should nuke 'em.  So I guess we're going back to war?  Again?  When we can't afford it?  Everybody hates Islam but I don't see a solution yet.