Nirvana High Paladin

[VCR_CAT]

also, Even if Ritual Pendulum Have no Pendulum/Monster effect, they can be Pendulum Summoned From The Extra Deck if the Ritual Summon was conducted properly beforehand, they can be as Gates as well.

My concern is the Fusion/Synchro/Xyz Pendulum, if they have no monster effects, they cant be Set as Gates.

 

This is incorrect. Extra Deck monsters are considered Semi-Nomi monsters, were it's implied they have a "You must first ______ Summon this card" clause on their text, or rather very loose semi-nomis most of the time. An Extra Deck monster can be Special Summoned from the Graveyard with any card effect, unless the card explicitly states otherwise, if it was properly summoned first.

 

Ritual monsters, though, are full Nomis. This means that even if you properly summon them first, they cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard, unless if it's by a card effect that's allowed to summon them (a Ritual Spell that summons from the grave).

 

Because Pendulum Summoning is a generic form of Special Summoning, this means that even if you properly summon a Ritual Monster first, it cannot be Pendulum Summoned even if you have the proper scales; a card effect must state otherwise.

 

Also, I don't understand what you mean by the monster being summoned properly first allowing it to be set as a pendulum scale. If we're talking Ritual Pendulums, they're monsters that exist in the hand, which means they would be able to be set as a Pendulum Scale. Activating a Pendulum Card in the scale has nothing to do with Summoning a monster; it's like activating a Spell Card and, as such, a monster is only restricted from this happening if it says so in its card text, or if the monster doesn't exist in the hand in the first place (which means it would need an alternate means of being placed in the Pendulum Zone, like Odd-Eyes Rebellion or Nirvana).

[UltimateIRS]

Ritual monsters, though, are full Nomis. This means that even if you properly summon them first, they cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard, unless if it's by a card effect that's allowed to summon them (a Ritual Spell that summons from the grave).

 

No, that's just Nekroz, Malacoda, and Herald of Ultimateness.

[evilfusion]

Rituals were always Semi-Nomis by default. Only certain Rituals are full Nomis.

[ÆƵ–]

This is incorrect. Extra Deck monsters are considered Semi-Nomi monsters, were it's implied they have a "You must first ______ Summon this card" clause on their text, or rather very loose semi-nomis most of the time. An Extra Deck monster can be Special Summoned from the Graveyard with any card effect, unless the card explicitly states otherwise, if it was properly summoned first.

 

Ritual monsters, though, are full Nomis. This means that even if you properly summon them first, they cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard, unless if it's by a card effect that's allowed to summon them (a Ritual Spell that summons from the grave).

 

Because Pendulum Summoning is a generic form of Special Summoning, this means that even if you properly summon a Ritual Monster first, it cannot be Pendulum Summoned even if you have the proper scales; a card effect must state otherwise.

 

Also, I don't understand what you mean by the monster being summoned properly first allowing it to be set as a pendulum scale. If we're talking Ritual Pendulums, they're monsters that exist in the hand, which means they would be able to be set as a Pendulum Scale. Activating a Pendulum Card in the scale has nothing to do with Summoning a monster; it's like activating a Spell Card and, as such, a monster is only restricted from this happening if it says so in its card text, or if the monster doesn't exist in the hand in the first place (which means it would need an alternate means of being placed in the Pendulum Zone, like Odd-Eyes Rebellion or Nirvana).

Ding dong you're wrong

 

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Ritual_Monster

 

cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard or while banished unless they were first Ritual Summoned

[VCR_CAT]

Ding dong you're wrong

 

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Ritual_Monster

 

cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard or while banished unless they were first Ritual Summoned

 

Ah, I misread then. Also, you didn't have to start your post like that ;-;

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Ritual pendulums require extra bookkeeping, as setting them as scales allows them to end up in ED without being summoned properly super easily.

 

Honestly, that is the only thing holding them back in such a respect, and fusion/synchro/xyz do not have that issue.

 

I really don't see what this problem is. If there is a design space that works mechanically, they may as well explore it.

[Progenitor]

Ritual pendulums require extra bookkeeping, as setting them as scales allows them to end up in ED without being summoned properly super easily.

 

Honestly, that is the only thing holding them back in such a respect, and fusion/synchro/xyz do not have that issue.

 

I really don't see what this problem is. If there is a design space that works mechanically, they may as well explore it.

 

Actually, if you set a theoretical Ritual Pendulum Monster in your scale, and then destroy said pendulum scale, could you even pendulum summon it from the extra?  My understanding of the Semi-Nomi clause means that it does not apply exclusively to the graveyard, but to any zone that is not the monster's original summoning requirement area (if that makes any sense).  For example, when you summon Shooting Star Dragon after Quasar has been popped, then try to use Shooting's 3rd effect, it will not special summon itself during the end phase because shooting was not first summoned properly, and even though this is from the Banished Zone and not the grave.

 

By that logic, if a Ritual Pendulum monster were to be destroyed from the pendulum zone, I would think that it could not be pendulum summoned from the extra deck, just the same as it cannot be pendulum summoned from the hand.  This would add an interesting duality to the concept.  Do you keep that ritual monster in your hand, and wait to summon it?  Or do you set it as a scale, knowing if it get's popped you can't do anything with that thing in your extra deck until you either add it back to your hand or do some other weird stratagem?

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Actually, if you set a theoretical Ritual Pendulum Monster in your scale, and then destroy said pendulum scale, could you even pendulum summon it from the extra? My understanding of the Semi-Nomi clause means that it does not apply exclusively to the graveyard, but to any zone that is not the monster's original summoning requirement area (if that makes any sense). For example, when you summon Shooting Star Dragon after Quasar has been popped, then try to use Shooting's 3rd effect, it will not special summon itself during the end phase.

 

By that logic, if a Ritual Pendulum monster were to be destroyed from the pendulum zone, I would think that it could not be pendulum summoned from the extra deck, just the same as it cannot be pendulum summoned from the hand. This would add an interesting duality to the concept. Do you keep that ritual monster in your hand, and wait to summon it? Or do you set it as a scale, knowing if it get's popped you can't do anything with that thing in your extra deck until you either add it back to your hand or do some other weird stratagem?

This is the long-winded version of my point.

 

Some of the ritual pendulums in your extra could be summoned, some couldn't. It just leads to misplays, really.

[evilfusion]

Actually, if you set a theoretical Ritual Pendulum Monster in your scale, and then destroy said pendulum scale, could you even pendulum summon it from the extra?  My understanding of the Semi-Nomi clause means that it does not apply exclusively to the graveyard, but to any zone that is not the monster's original summoning requirement area (if that makes any sense).  For example, when you summon Shooting Star Dragon after Quasar has been popped, then try to use Shooting's 3rd effect, it will not special summon itself during the end phase.

 

By that logic, if a Ritual Pendulum monster were to be destroyed from the pendulum zone, I would think that it could not be pendulum summoned from the extra deck, just the same as it cannot be pendulum summoned from the hand.  This would add an interesting duality to the concept.  Do you keep that ritual monster in your hand, and wait to summon it?  Or do you set it as a scale, knowing if it get's popped you can't do anything with that thing in your extra deck until you either add it back to your hand or do some other weird stratagem?

 

That's his point. If a Ritual Pendulum was sent to the Extra Deck when set as a Scale, it can't be Pendulum Summoned because it was not properly Ritual Summoned first. But if it was Ritual Summoned, and destroyed and sent to Extra, it can be Pendulum Summoned.

[Progenitor]

This is the long-winded version of my point.

 

 

That's his point. If a Ritual Pendulum was sent to the Extra Deck when set as a Scale, it can't be Pendulum Summoned because it was not properly Ritual Summoned first. But if it was Ritual Summoned, and destroyed and sent to Extra, it can be Pendulum Summoned.

 

Ah ok, I missread the post just a tad then.  Carry on.

[Blake]

People really need to learn how to differentiate subtypes.

 

This isn't like a Synchro Fusion, though the card border changes. It's like a Synchro Tuner equivalent.

 

Most sub-types aren't exactly an effect. They are a classification, some more than others. And you'd be surprised which are more comparable to Xyz/etc.

 

Ritual, Fusion, Synchro, and Xyz obviously go together, but what ELSE goes with them? Well, that's easy; Toon, Union, Spirit, Gemini, and (sorta) Flip. These are subtypes that define how a card functions, and what it does. While they can obviously do other things as well, they make a basic framework. First 4 have special summoning methods, others have subsets of abilities associated.

 

FLIP is mostly just a classification with support/hate, but it still goes here.

 

Toon and Union teeter the line, because they could very easily BE mixed with one of the others with no real issue. But they still function as a subset of effects/abilities/capability to be played.

 

As for Xyz... I will add on this; Do you see why they're so strong? Unlike Fusion, Ritual, Synchro, and the others, Xyz really don't force you to play a single way. You don't have to run tons of monsters of the same level, just some and then fill the ED up. It CAN force you to build and play around their constraints, but they don't punish you for running others. Like, Ppal can play cards with levels between 1 and 7, yet they're mostly "Xyz Centric". Xyz is unique in its own way, because it rewards you for playing the game, due to how generic it is compared to the other mechanics of its ilk. In a sense, it's similar to the next ones, but... You still have to Summon them in a certain way, so not the same.

 

Tuner and Pendulum, however, are unique. These are not cards that are defined by their type, but they are cards that, by virtue of everything else about them, validate that typing. That is to say... Tuner and Pendulum are glorified effects.

 

They are cards that have the basic utility of any other card, but they ALSO have the abiity to be used in other ways. They don't give you a single pathway to play them, they simply open up additional pathways to play your deck/other monsters. They enable you, as opposed to "restricting" you to their sub-type's conditions/abilities/etc. This is why Synchros took off as much as they did, and why Pendulums are the monstrous force of a mechanic that they are.

 

When you look at a Tuner/Pendulum, you look at what they can do, but then you add this on as an "Effect". Take Angel Trumpeter, for example; it's a 1900 vanilla, but it ALSO has the ability to go into a Synchro. You can get value from beating face with it, then go into an ED card, and that's what makes it valuable, aside from typing.

 

Archetype names can also function similarly to the Tuner/Pendulum aspect, because of the quality that such a name holds. Cards like Performapals have this, because the quality of the name is just that damn high in some cases.

 

This is part of a long-standing logic that I've been trying to get people to see, yet they refuse to, that's not 100% related; Vanillas.

 

You can have a Pendulum Monster with 2 bad sets of effects, but it can still be good due to stats/scale/name. Same goes for Tuners, and we have most certainly seen vanilla tuners/semi-vanilla tuners see play. Think about Dragon Rulers. I'd say Hieratics, but there is a reason there.

 

These are additional "Effects" that tell you there is an alternate use to the card. You don't just have to summon and use it, you can instead turn it into something better, OR activate it as a Spell in order to gain value and/or Pendulum Summon, which means there is a versatility and "genericness" to the design.

 

Other card games seem to have very little trouble grasping this concept, but YGO players seem to have a really hard time wrapping their heads around it.

 

For example:

Hearthstone has Spider Tank, a 3/4 for 3. It's a vanilla, but it's a "Mech", meaning it has synergies to work with. There are themed 3/4 for 3s, and even a 3/4 for 2 that makes you have 1 fewer mana the next turn. But Spider Tank retains value by virtue of being a "Mech", which is essentially an "effect". Not to mention a 2/3 and a 3/2 "Beast", both for 2 mana, which is the same case.

 

CFV has similar such things, like the new iteration of Dragonic Overlord, Nightmare Dolls, or cards like Blaster Larousse, which vastly improve cards with a certain race. Flame Dragon, Workeroid, and High Beast, respectively.

 

In both of these, Mech/Beast and the races are equivalent to YGO types... In theory alone. They function much more similarly to subtypes that sometimes get support, especially for the CFV example.

 

The former has mechanics like Deathrattle, Battlecry, etc. to determine the basis of how a card works, and they even have support, making them closer to the first type of sub-types.

 

The latter has mechanics like Stride, Limit Break, and Legion which function more like Xyz/Ritual/etc.

 

Point remains that Tuner and Pendulum are unique. They are made to blend and match with the other mechanics, based on the fact that they function as an additional "effect(s)", instead of being the core of how you play the card.

[☪©h@ÐØÖk.exe☪]

you misread my post too, i said, if Synchro, fusion, or xyz pendulum don't have monster effects, it wouldn't be possible to be set in the pendulum zones from the extra deck, unless you use another card effect that supports them.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

That's cool, black, but doesn't really cover the mechanical issues that come with it.

 

I mean, it was a great write-up before, but it really just dots on the discussion at hand.

[Blake]

That's cool, black, but doesn't really cover the mechanical issues that come with it.

 

I mean, it was a great write-up before, but it really just dots on the discussion at hand.

i was typing it for a while and had to leave while typing it.

 

you misread my post too, i said, if Synchro, fusion, or xyz pendulum don't have monster effects, it wouldn't be possible to be set in the pendulum zones from the extra deck, unless you use another card effect that supports them.

well gee whiz, it's a good thing they have the effects and it doesn't hurt anyone to add that on then, huh?

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

i was typing it for a while and had to leave while typing it.

 

Tfw I thought it was copypasta of a similar write-up from several months ago

[☪©h@ÐØÖk.exe☪]

what do you mean?

I just tried to say pendulum monsters that are orignally from the extra deck cant be set if they have monster effects.

[Blake]

what do you mean?

I just tried to say pendulum monsters that are orignally from the extra deck cant be set if they have monster effects.

What do YOU mean?

 

What does it matter that they need to have a clause to put them into the Pendulum Zone? Many Pendulum monsters function mainly as spells with the ability to become monsters, but there are certainly a number that are the opposite. This is the opposite taken to the extreme. It's not odd, it seems really weird to nitpick "oh they need an extra line of text".

 

 

Tfw I thought it was copypasta of a similar write-up from several months ago

well no, i mentioned something that was very recently released in cfv, don't think i ever wrote up something that long before

[goodfusion]

I get what your saying about Tuner, as that is a label that can be tacked on to anything and it not make any difference to how the actual card works, as opposed to something like Spirit or Gemini.

 

However I feel Pendulum is in a different group from Tuner, as it being a Pendulum does affect the way the card works, in a similar way to Gemini or Spirit. Sure, unlike those mechanics, Pendulum doesn't restrict you to how the monster is used or what it is, but it still changes the way the card can be used. This is mainly due to them going to the Extra Deck instead of the Graveyard if sent from the field there, as if that wasn't the case, a monster being a Pendulum would only be a bonus to the card like Tuner is.

[Blake]

I get what your saying about Tuner, as that is a label that can be tacked on to anything and it not make any difference to how the actual card works, as opposed to something like Spirit or Gemini.

 

However I feel Pendulum is in a different group from Tuner, as it being a Pendulum does affect the way the card works, in a similar way to Gemini or Spirit. Sure, unlike those mechanics, Pendulum doesn't restrict you to how the monster is used or what it is, but it still changes the way the card can be used. This is mainly due to them going to the Extra Deck instead of the Graveyard if sent from the field there, as if that wasn't the case, a monster being a Pendulum would only be a bonus to the card like Tuner is.

It really doesn't.

 

Decks run Archfiend Eccentrick is a generic card, at times. Yes, it goes to the ED instead, but it still has basic purposes that are the same as any other monster, but with an extra drawback that is akin to banishing. It's just a matter of understanding mechanics and implications of them.

 

The general point is that being a Pendulum just gives them extra effects overall, where they have versatility in what they do. They're better in some places, like Tuners, and worse in others, but the general purpose still exists, and they can mostly still exist as generic monsters with a drawback when they die. It's just an "Effect" that the "Pendulum" effect adds, but doesn't completely change how it's played.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

The more accurate correlation between pendulums and tuners is not as much in how they function independently, but rather in the fact that adding them to an archetype gives said archetype a new avenue of play. This was the central point in the previous write-up of the sort, and honestly all the other stuff just convolutes it.

[Blake]

The more accurate correlation between pendulums and tuners is not as much in how they function independently, but rather in the fact that adding them to an archetype gives said archetype a new avenue of play. This was the central point in the previous write-up of the sort, and honestly all the other stuff just convolutes it.

... no? That has nothing to do with this, only that they do make good 1-2 ofs for decks.

 

Flamvell Guard/Galaxy Serpent/Labradorite Dragon. Dragunity Darkspear. Angel Trumpeter. Blackwing - Death the Mourning Wind. Junk Changer.

 

The TCG exclusive Lv. 4 Dinosaur Pendulums. Archfiend Eccentrick.  Aether, the Wicked Empowering Dragon.

 

None of the mentioned archetypal cards have value due to the relevancy of their name. A number for their types, but not all of them.

 

Hell, just having a type can be a big deal, such as with Reptile, Warrior, or Winged Beast. There are lots of cards that don't draw value from their name alone, but from their general statline. Many types are at an all time high for importance, and this affects the quality of these cards. It factors into stats, of course, but the general idea remains.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I mean, if that is the entire point, I don't see much point to the correlation when it applies to just about any aspect of the card. Of course cards can see play for reasons beyond just their effects.

[Blake]

I mean, if that is the entire point, I don't see much point to the correlation when it applies to just about any aspect of the card. Of course cards can see play for reasons beyond just their effects.

congratulations, as a player of a different card game you understand basic ideas

 

YGO players have trouble with this idea, and will insist a card is bad because its effects are bad/it's a vanilla. A recent example being Performapal Swing Cobra. Another being Death the Mourning Wind, because no one thought of it as a generic card, instead seeing it as an "okay" Blackwing. And so on.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

congratulations, as a player of a different card game you understand basic ideas

This is like the opposite of a backhanded insult. It is a compliment that looks sarcastic and mean but is actually kinda genuine (I hope qq)

 

And for that matter (at least in the case of angel trumpeter) being a normal monster can even be considered an upside, due to various applicable support across the years.

[evilfusion]

This is like the opposite of a backhanded insult. It is a compliment that looks sarcastic and mean but is actually kinda genuine (I hope qq)

 

And for that matter (at least in the case of angel trumpeter) being a normal monster can even be considered an upside, due to various applicable support across the years.

 

Which is actually a pretty impressive feat when you think about it.

 

Then again, it's more a compliment in the sense that it's insulting everyone else by crediting you for achieving the absolute minimum, yet you still stand above your peers. It's a flippant remark by proxy.

 

I COULD try to analyze it further, but holy hell would I get off topic.

 

...I legitimately forgot what the topic was about. The fact Extra Deck Pendulums need an effect to be set as a Scale? Well...yeah. But we only have 2 Extra Deck Pendulums right now - This and Odd-Eyes Rebellion. And Rebellion can probably be placed as a Scale by some of the Odd-Eyes support cards, if not now, then maybe in the future. (I THINK there's one that takes an Odd-Eyes Pendulum and puts it in a Pendulum Zone?)