[MTG] Shadows over Innistrad Spoiler season begins

[Tesability Black]

The funny thing is that some guys are speculating it to be Marit Lage, which is arguably even weirder than Emrakul.

 

Wait, what? Considering how long it's been since such has even been mentioned...I severely doubt it is such unless there's a very-valid reason for such an shocking re-emergence.

[Trebuchet MS]

Sacrifice three Clues, then name a suspect, weapon, and location...

[Flame Dragon]

 

This looks amazing.  

 

Curious, where did you get this image?

 

EDIT: Also, I just found the trailer for this set on the main site, and I definitely say that 'madness' is good word for what's going on...and that Jace is both the best and worst one to be sent here. While he would be the best for solving the puzzles that have emerged, he's also the worse for a specific reason: the moment he truly winds up dropping his guards, the madness will take over him as well.

Jace really is the perfect person to come to Innistrad.  

 

wrong checklist there...

We were talking about the checklist from original Innistrad so I posted it.  

 

Declaration exiles for mechanical reasons.

 

Note that Avacyn flips when a non-angel dies, as opposed to human.

Which is super interesting. Wonder if its for flavor or them just wanting to push it more.

 

 

Except, doesn't Avacyn's power just wane when the balance tips in favour of humans, which in turn gives the vamps and other non-humans more power to re-adjust the balance?

My understanding is that her power isn't based on people's faith in her (like say the Theros Gods) rather the magic of the human gets stronger because of their faith in her.

 

 

Anyway, a theory my friend said and I like is that her time with Griselbrand and all the other horrors in the Helvault might have screwed with her mind.

 

My theory is that she is tied with Nahiri somehow. The set has TWO mysteries. Why has Avacyn gone crazy and why what did Sorin do to Nahiri. He KNOW he did something. This implies it. In all likelihood what ever it was trapped her on Innistrad with my personal guess is he needed her when he created Avacyn. Sorin is a vampire, even pre-mending he likely couldn't make Avacyn on his own so he used her as a power source for Avacyn and put her into some unconscious state to make sure she remained to power his angel. Now that she is awake, her fury is channeling into Avacyn driving her mad.

 

I am curious, why do you think Sorin would trap Nahiri on Innistrad since it seems VERY likely that this at the very least did happen.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I don't think it's Emrakul because of Incorrigible Youth, despite it seeming like the most damning piece of evidence to it being Emrakul.

If you look at Emrakul and her brood, they all have tentacles, carapaces, but a lack of eyes and, most importantly, SYMMETRY.

Emrakul seems to make sure her creations are perfectly symmetrical, as she is herself. It's kind of her calling card.

And the Incorrigible Youth are anything but symmetrical, with the mutations appearing to be totally chaotic and random.

I think something else is causing this madness, and it has to do with the moon.

Actually her calling card is spongy lattice, as I mentioned before.

 

The funny thing is that some guys are speculating it to be Marit Lage, which is arguably even weirder than Emrakul.

The scary part is this is 100% possible, lore-wise

 

Wait, what? Considering how long it's been since such has even been mentioned...I severely doubt it is such unless there's a very-valid reason for such an shocking re-emergence.

And here is the catch. The majority of mtg players have no funking clue who Marit Lage is. On the other hand, the inclusion of a token with FTV Lore highly suggest a reprint of Dark Depths, and bringing her back into recent memory. As a matter of fact, since she never actually mattered, this makes it make considerably more sense to include in FTV Lore. Honestly, I really hope this is the case, now.

 

Sacrifice three Clues, then name a suspect, weapon, and location...

ily

 

Curious, where did you get this image?

I caught a link to it in cockatrice chat while cubing

 

Anyway, a theory my friend said and I like is that her time with Griselbrand and all the other horrors in the Helvault might have screwed with her mind.

My theory is that she is tied with Nahiri somehow. The set has TWO mysteries. Why has Avacyn gone crazy and why what did Sorin do to Nahiri. He KNOW he did something. This implies it. In all likelihood what ever it was trapped her on Innistrad with my personal guess is he needed her when he created Avacyn. Sorin is a vampire, even pre-mending he likely couldn't make Avacyn on his own so he used her as a power source for Avacyn and put her into some unconscious state to make sure she remained to power his angel. Now that she is awake, her fury is channeling into Avacyn driving her mad.

 

I am curious, why do you think Sorin would trap Nahiri on Innistrad since it seems VERY likely that this at the very least did happen.

Pre-mending it would be easy for him to make an angel. Serra made thousands. And a parallel universe. Speaking of parallel universes, bolas made one as well. And Ugin created all the dragons of Tarkir. It isn't unreasonable to believe Sorin had similar strength.

 

An interesting concept could be that Nahiri created the Helvault. Its magic is incredibly similar to the Hedrons. Perhaps in some way she was bound to the Helvault in the process of it being sealed? I can't imagine she would be happy about that. This isn't it. It is stated Sorin lived 1000 years before Nahiri knew him.

[Flame Dragon]

Pre-mending it would be easy for him to make an angel. Serra made thousands. And a parallel universe. Speaking of parallel universes, bolas made one as well. And Ugin created all the dragons of Tarkir. It isn't unreasonable to believe Sorin had similar strength.

 

An interesting concept could be that Nahiri created the Helvault. Its magic is incredibly similar to the Hedrons. Perhaps in some way she was bound to the Helvault in the process of it being sealed? I can't imagine she would be happy about that. This isn't it. It is stated Sorin lived 1000 years before Nahiri knew him.

I know the power of pre-mending walkers, but the whole Black Vampire makes White Angel makes me feel it was a LITTLE out of his depth there. You also have the fact that Avacyn isn't ANY angel, something about her is special. Angels had been on Innistrad since before Vampires so he would have needed something extra to make her.

 

Ugin didn't make the dragons on Tarkir. I THINK its just a byproduct of hime existing since the Dragon Tempests don't really seem to be something under his control.

 

Do we actually know how long the Helvault has been around? Its possible it was made around the same time as Avacyn. In fact the wiki article on the Helvault brings that up. Plus, if it was just to make the Helvault that wouldn't explain why Sorin would trap her there since her job would have been done.

 

On the note of the wiki, "As his final act, Griselbrand threw his spear and impaled the archangel's heart." I wonder if that might have caused more damage then we were led to believe.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I know the power of pre-mending walkers, but the whole Black Vampire makes White Angel makes me feel it was a LITTLE out of his depth there.

Sorin isn't mono-black.

You also have the fact that Avacyn isn't ANY angel, something about her is special.

Radiant was pretty damn special.

 

 Angels had been on Innistrad since before Vampires so he would have needed something extra to make her.

Not sure how this leap of logic works.

 

Ugin didn't make the dragons on Tarkir. I THINK its just a byproduct of hime existing since the Dragon Tempests don't really seem to be something under his control.

Whether he controls them or not, they are a result of his power.

 

Do we actually know how long the Helvault has been around? Its possible it was made around the same time as Avacyn. In fact the wiki article on the Helvault brings that up. Plus, if it was just to make the Helvault that wouldn't explain why Sorin would trap her there since her job would have been done.

In fact it was created then. And their creation was among Sorin's earliest acts as a planeswalker. As a matter of fact, Ugin references these acts when he first meets Nahiri, saying that Sorin of all people should know the importance of balance, which is obviously referencing Avacyn, a being he created to oppose his own species so that it may survive. This means that both Avacyn and the Helvault existed well before Nahiri came into play. Whatever she is angry about, it occurred when they met after the first breach in the hedron network, by the vampires. Nahiri fixed this on her own, and left the plane to find Sorin afterward.

 

On the note of the wiki, "As his final act, Griselbrand threw his spear and impaled the archangel's heart." I wonder if that might have caused more damage then we were led to believe.

This is both a logical and reasonable assumption, but the fact it is so unrelated to everything kills it IMO. As you said, Nahiri and Avacyn's anger are related somehow.

 

I just reread all material including Nahiri, and noticed something. Vampires are not native to Zendikar (something that seems to be retconned in, which implies relevance). Perhaps she links their existence to Sorin? This seems half-baked, tbh.

[Flame Dragon]

Sorin isn't mono-black.

The white in his cards has been a reflection of his actions less so his powers I think. His two BW cards could easily be mono black for example with only the emblem being slightly out of color, but imo its a basic enough effect that it still works.

 

Radiant was pretty damn special.

Not sure who this. My knowledge of the older lore stuff is pretty minimal.

 

Not sure how this leap of logic works.

I brought up the existence of angels on Innistrad before Sorin even became a vampire to show that something about Avacyn needed to be different from a standard angel.

 

Whether he controls them or not, they are a result of his power.

Result certainly, I was just saying he doesn't really make them.

 

In fact it was created then. And their creation was among Sorin's earliest acts as a planeswalker. As a matter of fact, Ugin references these acts when he first meets Nahiri, saying that Sorin of all people should know the importance of balance, which is obviously referencing Avacyn, a being he created to oppose his own species so that it may survive. This means that both Avacyn and the Helvault existed well before Nahiri came into play. Whatever she is angry about, it occurred when they met after the first breach in the hedron network, by the vampires. Nahiri fixed this on her own, and left the plane to find Sorin afterward.

That would suggest he made Avacyn a LONG time ago. That much is certainly true. Though they could end up explaining it some other way, if it is Avacyn I would believe it. 

 

I just reread all material including Nahiri, and noticed something. Vampires are not native to Zendikar (something that seems to be retconned in, which implies relevance). Perhaps she links their existence to Sorin? This seems half-baked, tbh.

I believe the vampires on Zendikar are a result of the Eldrazi somehow. Like their hunger was able to bleed out and infect the people of the plane turning them or something. How they are connected was never really explained, but thats what is implied.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Radiant was an angel created by Serra who turned phyrexian and took over the sanctum. It was a big deal back then. Ask Cowcow if you want more details, he knows old lore the best out of everyone on the site.

 

And yeah. Avacyn has been around a very log time, meaning her creation did not involve Nahiri. In fact, it is implied Nahiri had never visited Innistrad, up until she left to find Sorin, which is the last we saw her.

[.Rai]

The writers won't do anything weird. Occam's razor dictates that Nahiri massacring the Markov bloodline has tipped the balance, as others have said. If Avacyn is essentially a supply-demand meter, demand's gone down, so supply's should go down too.

 

Great card design though. Super evocative of the actual lore.

 

Also, on the topic of Marit Lage, you know who worshipped an ancient pre-Avacynian god of the sea? Runo Stromkirk. You know what was in that trailer? A freaky sea portal.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Also, on the topic of Marit Lage, you know who worshipped an ancient pre-Avacynian god of the sea? Runo Stromkirk. You know what was in that trailer? A freaky sea portal.

Is this actually happening?

[Flame Dragon]

I would be 100% down for that. They "killed" two titans so Magic's bad guys line up needs another addition, especially since Phyrexians are bound to a plane. BRING US MORE LOVECRAFTIAN HORRORS!!!!

[.Rai]

TIL In Origins, every pack with a flipwalker had a checklist card guaranteed. Solves a lot of the issues you had, Flame Dragon.

[Flame Dragon]

TIL In Origins, every pack with a flipwalker had a checklist card guaranteed. Solves a lot of the issues you had, Flame Dragon.

That is likely what they will end up doing. Still cumbersome, but I'll live.

[bury the year]

Actually her calling card is spongy lattice, as I mentioned before.

 

That was at least true pre-BFZ, but the writers have retconned some of the definitions for each of the Eldrazi and their brood. Plus, if we were to see latticed vampires on a spoiler card this earlier, it'd be a no-brainer for Emrakul to be on Innistrad. All the suspense would be taken out of it. The random eyes and tentacles is a much more subtle way of doing it: yeah, people think it's the Eldrazi's fault, but it could just as easily be something else.

[.Rai]

That was at least true pre-BFZ, but the writers have retconned some of the definitions for each of the Eldrazi and their brood. Plus, if we were to see latticed vampires on a spoiler card this earlier, it'd be a no-brainer for Emrakul to be on Innistrad. All the suspense would be taken out of it. The random eyes and tentacles is a much more subtle way of doing it: yeah, people think it's the Eldrazi's fault, but it could just as easily be something else.

Admittedly, the spongy lattice is not something that is no longer true. I believe the art book refers to it as such, hence it is accurate information post-BFZ.

[Sixty]

new avacyn is silly with displacer

 

 

everything's silly with displacer

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I spent most of this morning brewing with a friend, and we came to the conclusion that the best shell for Avacyn is (Chordless?) Abzan Aristocrats. Thoughts?

[bury the year]

Admittedly, the spongy lattice is not something that is no longer true. I believe the art book refers to it as such, hence it is accurate information post-BFZ.

 

Ah, okay. Still doesn't discount my point, though: the absence of the lattice doesn't strike the possibility of Eldrazi influence. :)

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Ah, okay. Still doesn't discount my point, though: the absence of the lattice doesn't strike the possibility of Eldrazi influence. :)

Nor does extra eyes really suggest it tbh

[.Rai]

I spent most of this morning brewing with a friend, and we came to the conclusion that the best shell for Avacyn is (Chordless?) Abzan Aristocrats. Thoughts?

I think it's naturally a tricky place to put Avacyn. If you can't afford to play a Wrath, you can't afford to get Slagstormed. If Aristocrats isn't running Wingmate Roc at the moment, I don't think it'll run Avacyn. I personally think it's just better as a hardy threat and counterspell in a midrange-control shell. She doesn't flip reliably as you basically need a sac engine for her to flip, but the threat is advantage in itself.

 

Although, if you're looking for the blowouts of multiple flips, I guess this does give Aristocrats a combo kill. Admittedly, I'd wait on Matt Tabak for this. People have been bringing up the multiple flip interaction on his Tumblr, and he said to wait till the rules update.

[.Rai]

In reference to sacrificing lots of creatures to flip flop Avacyn to Fireball your opponent, this is no longer a valid interaction as of the new rules update.

[Flame Dragon]

While new cards come in and get threads, I think we can use this thread for general speculation on the SOI story.

 

Came across the product description for the Innistrad Art Book

“Terror falls from the skies on blood-spattered wings, and nameless horrors lurk in the shadows. These pages, lavishly illustrated with the award-winning art of Magic: The Gathering™, are your entry into a world beset by terrible evils on all sides and betrayed by the hope it held most dear. Tread lightly as you follow the heroic Planeswalkers of the Gatewatch as they investigate these dark mysteries, for the nightmare they will uncover is a threat to the whole Multiverse.”

 

The last bit is REALLY interesting. The theory that Nahiri or Griselbrand are tied to Avacyn's madness are both solid imo, but those wouldn't count as multi-planar threats. Only Marit Lage and Emrakul would count for that. Personally, I think Emrakul showing up right after Battle doesn't work and adding Marit to the bad guy line up seems SUPER appealing. Plus Marit is just as Lovecraftian as the Eldrazi and Lovecraft's monsters deal with madness a good deal. Add in the name Eldritch Moon, another word tied with Lovecraft's monsters and Marit Lage being the source of all the stuff happening seems SUPER solid.

[.Rai]

By the way, even the packaging thread has its puzzles.

 

 

http://media.wizards.com/2016/images/daily/GGxrPrVWmch15.png

Channel Fireball are previewing Arlinn on the 15th.

 

 

http://media.wizards.com/2016/images/daily/MthrShPpuNS317.png

Mothership Puns, i.e. an LSV mothership article. Sorin on the 17th.

[bury the year]

The last bit is REALLY interesting. The theory that Nahiri or Griselbrand are tied to Avacyn's madness are both solid imo, but those wouldn't count as multi-planar threats. Only Marit Lage and Emrakul would count for that. Personally, I think Emrakul showing up right after Battle doesn't work and adding Marit to the bad guy line up seems SUPER appealing. Plus Marit is just as Lovecraftian as the Eldrazi and Lovecraft's monsters deal with madness a good deal. Add in the name Eldritch Moon, another word tied with Lovecraft's monsters and Marit Lage being the source of all the stuff happening seems SUPER solid.

While new cards come in and get threads, I think we can use this thread for general speculation on the SOI story.“Terror falls from the skies on blood-spattered wings, and nameless horrors lurk in the shadows. These pages, lavishly illustrated with the award-winning art of Magic: The Gathering™, are your entry into a world beset by terrible evils on all sides and betrayed by the hope it held most dear. Tread lightly as you follow the heroic Planeswalkers of the Gatewatch as they investigate these dark mysteries, for the nightmare they will uncover is a threat to the whole Multiverse.”

 

Marit Lage doesn't explain the random tentacles and eyes appearing on Innistrad's citizens, though. That's in Emrakul's wheelhouse - she affects living flesh. Also, while I think it'd be cool to put Marit Lage in, which seems more likely for WotC to advance: a threat from a semi-obscure piece of Magic's history that few new players would recognize, or a follow-up on a hyped part of the current plot?

 

Of course, I could be completely wrong, but I'm putting my bets on it being Emrakul.

[Flame Dragon]

The URL for the Jace pack is NoHINt4U. That is freaking amazing.