Pokemon Sun & Moon

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

oh what it had guts?

 

Even better then, because you can either predict a status or run a status orb

 

Like for real, it's at least better than the original, which nobody was jabroniing about in the first place

No no, Raticate OG had Guts. That's what I mean. That's the one flaw with it over normal Raticate.

[Pchi]

Those Z-Moves are cool and all, but they're definitely not a good replacement for Mega Evolutions as an enhancement mechanic for a multitude of reasons. Hopefully they will at least keep the Megas that we already have, even if they're only going to be available in the post-game.

[Flame Dragon]

Those Z-Moves are cool and all, but they're definitely not a good replacement for Mega Evolutions as an enhancement mechanic for a multitude of reasons. Hopefully they will at least keep the Megas that we already have, even if they're only going to be available in the post-game.

I'm sure some Pokemon will want to use Z-Moves. You are correct that they have an uphill battle vs. Life Orb and the Choice items though. It will come down to how powerful they are and how hard it is to get them online.

[Blake]

While I agree it does have issues, it does allow for more gradation of power. I disagree with your view on Megas as a whole, but it is obvious that several were WAY too much (hi Salamence). By doing Pokemon specific Z moves you can give Pokemon a boost without giving them the full 100 BST buff that you get with a Mega. Also, not all Pokemon can have convincing Mega designs and this also lets them give a little boost to those Pokemon. I feel like in the case of Snorlax both of those are true, giving it 100 more BST could be too much and a good design for a Mega could be challenging. A do get the gipped sentiment, and again this does have issues, but I think it creates more wiggle room for how to push older Pokemon that have been left behind.

A little boost in the form of a move that costs a held item isn't going to magically make these Pokemon viable, likely not even buffing them a single tier. It's just cute in-game stuff, which may or may not have balancing issues. Can't comment on that at present.

 

Not having convincing mega designs doesn't really feel like a point? Not all Pokemon have convincing designs. Duds happen.

 

Unless these moves are more than offensive power moves (which is what we've seen/been pitched), then there's no real case to be had.

 

@being reskins: Doubt? I feel like this is a case of "You get generic and then you get a reward for being a specific pokemon". If they're just reskins, cool, but why make such a big deal of it, provided that's the case? We got news that amounted to just the Snorlax/Alolachu thing, the Munchlax Download, and Alolattat, which is honestly not much, so if they revealed reskins at this time, they'd basically be telling us 1 thing and 1 event. Doesn't feel right.

[Flame Dragon]

A little boost in the form of a move that costs a held item isn't going to magically make these Pokemon viable, likely not even buffing them a single tier. It's just cute in-game stuff, which may or may not have balancing issues. Can't comment on that at present.

 

Not having convincing mega designs doesn't really feel like a point? Not all Pokemon have convincing designs. Duds happen.

 

Unless these moves are more than offensive power moves (which is what we've seen/been pitched), then there's no real case to be had.

 

@being reskins: Doubt? I feel like this is a case of "You get generic and then you get a reward for being a specific pokemon". If they're just reskins, cool, but why make such a big deal of it, provided that's the case? We got news that amounted to just the Snorlax/Alolachu thing, the Munchlax Download, and Alolattat, which is honestly not much, so if they revealed reskins at this time, they'd basically be telling us 1 thing and 1 event. Doesn't feel right.

I feel like the issue of it vs. a normal item is an issue the mechanic has over all. As already said, the moves need to be ungodly powerful or as you said have some other benefits to make up for your hold item. Hell, several Megas have to compete with with their normal form just holding a Life Orb. If the major game mechanic they are pushing just ends up being worse than using a normal item that would be a pretty massive failure for the mechanic overall. Though it is also possible that they are thinking more in terms of VGC where you have item clause and where having access to the Z-Moves is easier since you can't just have a bunch of Leftovers and Life Orbs on your Pokemon.

 

While it is certainly true that not all Pokemon have a good designs, the Pokemon that get Megas tend to be the more popular ones and by extension likely have some of the better designs. Making a powered up form which makes the design worse (Mega Gyarados) is something I imagine they would want to avoid. Players will use the best tools, and having a cool Pokemon turn ugly does create unneeded feel bad moments. Plus, in general, you want Megas to looks really cool and we've already had it happen where not having a good design has kept a Pokemon from getting a Mega even though they wanted to make one.

 

I do agree that just having the personalized Z crystal be a reskin would be a weird choice.

[Blake]

I feel like the issue of it vs. a normal item is an issue the mechanic has over all. As already said, the moves need to be ungodly powerful or as you said have some other benefits to make up for your hold item. Hell, several Megas have to compete with with their normal form just holding a Life Orb. If the major game mechanic they are pushing just ends up being worse than using a normal item that would be a pretty massive failure for the mechanic overall. Though it is also possible that they are thinking more in terms of VGC where you have item clause and where having access to the Z-Moves is easier since you can't just have a bunch of Leftovers and Life Orbs on your Pokemon.

 

While it is certainly true that not all Pokemon have a good designs, the Pokemon that get Megas tend to be the more popular ones and by extension likely have some of the better designs. Making a powered up form which makes the design worse (Mega Gyarados) is something I imagine they would want to avoid. Players will use the best tools, and having a cool Pokemon turn ugly does create unneeded feel bad moments. Plus, in general, you want Megas to looks really cool and we've already had it happen where not having a good design has kept a Pokemon from getting a Mega even though they wanted to make one.

Yes, that is a mechanic issue. But the difference here is that ability to be read, which is much higher in the case of these personalized stones. These Pokemon can be read as "oh they have this move, better outplay that/stop it/etc.," which, while not fool-proof, is still something that can't be done for the general ones. This makes it even more likely, if these end up havign any impact, that the personalized ones are just going to flop... unless they're stupidly strong, in which case, why not just go the Mega route to get a new design? I understand the difficulty of designing (See: Snorlax), but that doesn't remove the poor design we SEEM to be getting here.

 

I feel like holding off on making a mega makes more sense than encroaching on the mega evolution design space with these personalized Z-Moves. Whether or not I think Megas are a poor design (which, in game, they almost certainly have been implemented poorly), these scream a lack of imagination in an, otherwise, imaginative gen. Only these and the fire/dragon have let me down so far, and I don't really see how personalizing them is going to change things, especially with how it loses the surprise factor of it being on some random Pokemon on your team.

[Flame Dragon]

Yes, that is a mechanic issue. But the difference here is that ability to be read, which is much higher in the case of these personalized stones. These Pokemon can be read as "oh they have this move, better outplay that/stop it/etc.," which, while not fool-proof, is still something that can't be done for the general ones. This makes it even more likely, if these end up havign any impact, that the personalized ones are just going to flop... unless they're stupidly strong, in which case, why not just go the Mega route to get a new design? I understand the difficulty of designing (See: Snorlax), but that doesn't remove the poor design we SEEM to be getting here.

 

I feel like holding off on making a mega makes more sense than encroaching on the mega evolution design space with these personalized Z-Moves. Whether or not I think Megas are a poor design (which, in game, they almost certainly have been implemented poorly), these scream a lack of imagination in an, otherwise, imaginative gen. Only these and the fire/dragon have let me down so far, and I don't really see how personalizing them is going to change things, especially with how it loses the surprise factor of it being on some random Pokemon on your team.

How easy they are to read will come down to how the Z-Moves work in general. What the condition is to use them and how many times they can be used in a given battle will determine a lot of that. And at least Snorlax you can think it has an Assault Vest before you figure out it has its Z-Crystal.

 

I do get the issue of eating into Mega's design space. The mechanic feel of the two is very similar and allowing them each to have proper breathing room is going to be difficult. Not to mention this opens up the Mega Stone issue where we can end up with a few dozen of these items vs. the locked in 18 that just the types brought. It is a small thing all things considered, but fumbling around with dozens of items can be frustrating at times.

 

And I'll admit I might be being overly optimistic. For the moment though, with how they've been handling this Gen I'm hopeful that the more obvious design issues were things they figured out and that they took them into account when designing the game.

[Blake]

How easy they are to read will come down to how the Z-Moves work in general. What the condition is to use them and how many times they can be used in a given battle will determine a lot of that. And at least Snorlax you can think it has an Assault Vest before you figure out it has its Z-Crystal.

 

I do get the issue of eating into Mega's design space. The mechanic feel of the two is very similar and allowing them each to have proper breathing room is going to be difficult. Not to mention this opens up the Mega Stone issue where we can end up with a few dozen of these items vs. the locked in 18 that just the types brought. It is a small thing all things considered, but fumbling around with dozens of items can be frustrating at times.

 

And I'll admit I might be being overly optimistic. For the moment though, with how they've been handling this Gen I'm hopeful that the more obvious design issues were things they figured out and that they took them into account when designing the game.

They're 1/battle, like Megas. That's already confirmed. So already mechanically similar, before eating into design space.

 

I'd like to think so, too. Most of the stuff looks good... I just feel like, they either gave mega evolution the boot or they're digging themselves into a hole... And, if the leaks that were more-or-less validated today are to be believed, Mega Evolution gets no new entries this time. Which rubs me the wrong way when these specific Z-Stones exist.

[Flame Dragon]

They're 1/battle, like Megas. That's already confirmed. So already mechanically similar, before eating into design space.

 

I'd like to think so, too. Most of the stuff looks good... I just feel like, they either gave mega evolution the boot or they're digging themselves into a hole... And, if the leaks that were more-or-less validated today are to be believed, Mega Evolution gets no new entries this time. Which rubs me the wrong way when these specific Z-Stones exist.

Right. I knew we had some info, wasn't sure if the usage amount was one.

 

Agree that not having Megas and adding in Mega like Z-Stones is a really bad move. I get wanting to change things up, but that seems like too hard a change. Megas are popular and Z-Stones likely already have enough going on that they didn't need to eat into Mega space when we aren't getting any.

[Toffee.]

You know, given Rat's new "nocturnal" form-

I could argue that part of its Dark-Type is because living in a shadowy area would result in having it grow an immunity to Ghost-Types, who typically lurk in that area.

I know I'm stating the obveious, but still.

[The Warden]

It always had a ghost immunity Armz. It gained an immunity to psychic.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

silly armz. The ghosts here are dancing birds and sandcastles

[Toffee.]

I suppose I phrased that wrong. What I was getting at, was that Physical Normal attacks can't hit Ghost-Types, or some sheet like that.

[Astro Dude]

I wonder what Alola Raticate would look like. Also, Snorlax opened its eyes. We're screwed.

Blue Link: Thank you captain obvious.

[Toffee.]

Also, Snorlax opened its eyes.

[Agro]

So here's my question: is a once-per-battle move that could be a OHKO worth losing a hold item?

[Flame Dragon]

So here's my question: is a once-per-battle move that could be a OHKO worth losing a hold item?

In general I think no, but I'm sure several Pokemon will be very happy with it.

 

Also, reading this made me realize how bad some of them are going to suck. Even resisted I'm sure the moves will do a crap ton of damage, but if their immune lol, too bad. So Electric, Fighting, Ground, Normal, Poison, Dragon, Ghost, and Psychic all have a disadvantage from go. Of those Ghost is likely the least screwed since Normal types aren't super common and Ghost moves are otherwise hard to switch into. Past that, Fire, Water, Grass all have abilities that grant Pokemon immunity to them.

[Pchi]

So I read the Jojo-esque poses the trainer makes to conjure the Z-Moves are in reality based on Hula Dance moves, so I'd like to ask Sakura if he knows which ones each Z-Move revealed so far corresponds to -if he knows, of course

[Jord200]

Well I'd imagine he does.

 

In general I think no, but I'm sure several Pokemon will be very happy with it.

Also, reading this made me realize how bad some of them are going to suck. Even resisted I'm sure the moves will do a crap ton of damage, but if their immune lol, too bad. So Electric, Fighting, Ground, Normal, Poison, Dragon, Ghost, and Psychic all have a disadvantage from go. Of those Ghost is likely the least screwed since Normal types aren't super common and Ghost moves are otherwise hard to switch into. Past that, Fire, Water, Grass all have abilities that grant Pokemon immunity to them.

 

 

Yeah, I could see some Pokemon that are more of a Glass Cannon really be able to make it shine.

[Agro]

In general I think no, but I'm sure several Pokemon will be very happy with it.Also, reading this made me realize how bad some of them are going to suck. Even resisted I'm sure the moves will do a crap ton of damage, but if their immune lol, too bad. So Electric, Fighting, Ground, Normal, Poison, Dragon, Ghost, and Psychic all have a disadvantage from go. Of those Ghost is likely the least screwed since Normal types aren't super common and Ghost moves are otherwise hard to switch into. Past that, Fire, Water, Grass all have abilities that grant Pokemon immunity to them.

This is why I want a ghost/normal offensive juggernaught real bad. :<

 

one thing that could use it is like a prankster setup mon. Set up rocks, spikes, etc then nuke.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

I'm not really sure about the Z-moves being based on hula movements (well, my knowledge on the subject is very limited to be honest since it isn't a subject that we actually have to be proficient at here). Looking at the ones for the starters, only the Water one resembles anything that I'd see in typical dances (a quick Google search of actual movements does describe that one to mean the ocean, which would fit well here). So yeah, I can only pick out the Water one as something actually based on hula; rest of them don't really look like anything that'd go in there.

 

I apologize for not being of too much help though.

 

[spoiler=side note]

I know I watched the entirety of kahiko (pre-modern hula) when the Merrie Monarch Festival aired a couple months ago, but even from there and rewatching the starter stuff, I don't see any obvious similarities between them that I can pick out design sources.

 

 

[Pchi]

Now I wonder, what if the Z-Moves are all unavoidable OHKO moves? That'd certainly give some merit to using them, especially if they can bypass Protect and other defensive moves/abilities. Them coming in all existing types is probably only to deal with immunities and obviously because not all mon can learn a move from every single type. This way, it'd not matter whether they're physical or special either - any mon could use any of them without worrying about its stats, which is good since it's implied there'll be only 1 Z-Move for each type, species-exclusive ones aside. Speaking of them, I believe the advantage they'd have over generic Z-Moves would be either not needing to learn a move from the same type (although given most of them will be STAB moves, that may be a moot point), OR some additional benefit from holding the respective Z-Crystals besides gaining access to the Z-Moves, which is something I theorized a while ago.

[Sethera]

Man oh man that dark Rattata. That stache. That STACHE.

Also Alolan Raichu you don't have to try and impress me. I already know I want you on my team. Snorlax is great too though. "It's alive!"

[Flame Dragon]

Now I wonder, what if the Z-Moves are all unavoidable OHKO moves? That'd certainly give some merit to using them, especially if they can bypass Protect and other defensive moves/abilities. Them coming in all existing types is probably only to deal with immunities and obviously because not all mon can learn a move from every single type. This way, it'd not matter whether they're physical or special either - any mon could use any of them without worrying about its stats, which is good since it's implied there'll be only 1 Z-Move for each type, species-exclusive ones aside. Speaking of them, I believe the advantage they'd have over generic Z-Moves would be either not needing to learn a move from the same type (although given most of them will be STAB moves, that may be a moot point), OR some additional benefit from holding the respective Z-Crystals besides gaining access to the Z-Moves, which is something I theorized a while ago.

Having them sure thing OHKOs seems like it leads to a poor play experience. You want things to have some degree of counter play, and if its just "and you die" you lose that. Not to mention it would be REALLY terrible in game. Like, WAY worse than Megas were.

[Pchi]

Having them sure thing OHKOs seems like it leads to a poor play experience. You want things to have some degree of counter play, and if its just "and you die" you lose that. Not to mention it would be REALLY terrible in game. Like, WAY worse than Megas were.

Ok, maybe not completely unblockable, but surely a 100% accuracy OHKO. Otherwise they'd never be viable by any means, because not all mon would be able to properly use them depending on each move's category, and should the foe survive, you'd have wasted 1 precious item slot for nothing. The fact you have only one shot already does wonders to balance the mechanic. Sure, if your opponent is down to only 1 mon, you basically won, but other factors (such as immunities, Protect and the fact your mon needs to either be faster or survive the foe's assault in order to deal the finishing blow, if he's not forced to use it earlier in the battle while in a pinch) will keep them from being broken.