Lavaval Chain

[The Nyx Avatar]

What most people have been mentioning was how this sends to the Graveyard, serving for Grave-triggering monsters and Djinn Releaser, but people hardly mentioned its other effect, and I have seen it used.

 

And regardless of any point you make, I'd rather this card not move from the ban list. But again, that's just my opinion.

[Aman Indra]

literally half the people jabroniing about lavaval chain (including you) are only doing it because the ban of chain made half of the decks that combo'ed useless and inconsistent.

[Sleepy]

Foolish Burial is one thing.

It lacks any real ways to search it and use it on demand, and it being at 1 prevents it from becoming anything close to an engine in decks. It is just a sacky tech with a really good effect.

If it is ever not being run in a deck that likes the Graveyard, it is because that deck must have themed ways to do this in a more consistent way and/or must be pretty tight or needy of other things like backrow. It happens.

 

Lavalval though can be used on demand as part of the easiest Rank of all time to make, and can actually dump more things than Foolish (those Spell/Trap Graveyard effects are an unusual choice, but I've seen them happen). That makes it pretty much immune to what keeps Foolish at 1.

 

Yes Trick Clown doesn't really need it with the way PePe is looking, but it is still pretty powerful. Saying they don't need Lavalval Chain because they are already very strong is something that can be applied to other banned cards. They don't need Pot of Greed because they are already so card advantage friendly as it is. At the end of the day it is just a very good extra toy to play with.

 

I'd personally like an effect of this nature to be more accessible, Foolish at 1 doesn't make me happy and Lavalval Chain had too much going for it. I didn't even mention the destiny draw effect or the fact that it can get to use its second material at times....

 

I mean, this kind of effect needs to have its role distributed among themed cards for a more controlled balance OR

accessible and generic, but not something this cheap, and it would be good enough if it had a single shot and just that Foolish Burial effect going for it. For example:

 

2 Level 4 monsters

Detach 3 Xyz Materials from cards you control; send 1 card from your Deck to the Graveyard. You can only activate this effect of "Lavalval Chain" once per turn.

[宇佐見 蓮子@C94]

honestly i say this card needs to go back to 1 because of all the fun combos it enables. like idc whether you wanna call it unhealthy or what the heck ever, it's a fun as hell card to use and the combos it can go into are interesting and creative.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Bottomline, OCG has this card at three, WITH three archfiend and 3 barriar, Infernity have topped once in the last 5 months. About 60% of Dracopals decks don't run this or beast. Heros don't run it....TCG is just pussyfooting around to keep star seraphs at three for w/e got damn reason

[Βyakuya]

Well since I have been dueling with this insane Siberian beast for a while, I can confirm or at least see a lot of points here.

 

In my view, it's a great stepping stone to make combos a lot easier and enables unique play in a lot of decks that could make the deck better. Though I don't have strong opinions on this card, limiting this card would be a fair compromise in the future, no matter how much anyone complains. If I wanted to go further to see the overall effectiveness of this card, I would leave it up to testing and experience through experiments.

[Sleepy]

Bottomline, OCG has this card at three, WITH three archfiend and 3 barriar, Infernity have topped once in the last 5 months. About 60% of Dracopals decks don't run this or beast. Heros don't run it....TCG is just pussyfooting around to keep star seraphs at three for w/e got damn reason

 

Konami in general needs to do a clean-up of dead weight from the banlist. 

Looking at Goyo Guardian and Magician of Faith from OCG.

DMoC and Cyber Stein from the TCG.

And from the "why is this still there?" and the "I wanna support undermeta too" categories we have Sangan, Witch of the Black Forest, Time Seal, Pot of Avarice, Zenmaity (I'd rather have that than Hunter any day), Thousand Eyes Restrict, Redox, and arguably Yata Garasu and Tribe Infecting Virus.

 

Is that the case for Lavalval Chain? Err I already left a comment here so just mentioning it to make sure I'm not necessarily including it here^

It won't stay banned forever, but the meta needs to divert away from this card's potential a bit more for it to get a chance.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Konami in general needs to do a clean-up of dead weight from the banlist. 

Looking at Goyo Guardian and Magician of Faith from OCG.

DMoC and Cyber Stein from the TCG.

And from the "why is this still there?" and the "I wanna support undermeta too" categories we have Sangan, Witch of the Black Forest, Time Seal, Pot of Avarice, Zenmaity (I'd rather have that than Hunter any day), Thousand Eyes Restrict, Redox, and arguably Yata Garasu and Tribe Infecting Virus.

 

Is that the case for Lavalval Chain? Err I already left a comment here so just mentioning it to make sure I'm not necessarily including it here^

It won't stay banned forever, but the meta needs to divert away from this card's potential a bit more for it to get a chance.

Stole the words from my mouth. 

 

 

Well since I have been dueling with this insane Siberian beast for a while, I can confirm or at least see a lot of points here.

 

Hmmmm

[Toffee.]

What most people have been mentioning was how this sends to the Graveyard, serving for Grave-triggering monsters and Djinn Releaser, but people hardly mentioned its other effect, and I have seen it used.

The only thing the 2nd effect has going for it is plays with Nikitama, that usually involve searching BLS.

Aaaaaaaaand that's about it.

[The Nyx Avatar]

The only thing the 2nd effect has going for it is plays with Nikitama, that usually involve searching BLS.

Aaaaaaaaand that's about it.

What about Star Seraph Scepter?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The only thing the 2nd effect has going for it is plays with Nikitama, that usually involve searching BLS.Aaaaaaaaand that's about it.

Black alleged that Nekroz used to stack hand traps and draw them out with Valky

[Toffee.]

Black alleged that Nekroz used to stack hand traps and draw them out with Valky

That's an amusing move.

[Neochu-H]

I don't care what anyone says, but no one has ever beaten me with any whatever you calls it loop sheet that uses this card

[Sleepy]

I don't care what anyone says, but no one has ever beaten me with any whatever you calls it loop sheet that uses this card

 

I've only really seen the loops involving it on videos to be fair... iirc, Blaze Fenix is the one to blame for the ones I've seen.

This might be a generic enabler, but that card just exists to burn for massive damage and lacking a hard OPT clause just screams abuse.

I don't think clownblade really counts as a loop, it is only a loop if you can respect the hard OPT clause of the members being recycled.... Nowhere near Gishki loop levels...

Btw, was this used in Gishki decks at any point?

 

Anyways, the "loops" aren't the meat of the problem particularly with Lavalval Chain, it was the fact the effect is really good even if it was a single use one. Take my "really good" as you want.

[SirReal]

We gave up Chain and Exciton so Norden can stay at 3. We gave up Chain for Fenix to stay at 3. I see other cards more deserving of list attention than Lavalval Chain, that's just my two cents. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

We gave up Chain and Exciton so Norden can stay at 3. We gave up Chain for Fenix to stay at 3. I see other cards more deserving of list attention than Lavalval Chain, that's just my two cents.

 

You gave up Chain for a degenerate r4nk maker at three

You gave up Chain to keep a degenerate FTK machine at three

You gave up Chain to keep the degenerate Stick/Chair plus engine alive

 

See the problem?

[Blake]

Chain isn't related to Norden. Illusory connotation.

 

Chain's FTKs aren't all linked to Blaze Fenix, and I can't think of one that connects the two off of the top of my head. Illusory connotation.

 

Stick and Chair were too fuckin new at the time of Chain's ban, as has been explained over and over, so it's a desperation point.

 

I don't care to argue this again, because it's talking to a wall. Even if you took care of Stick/Chair, Chain is too good.

 

Like, Pepe isn't Tier 0 in the TCG, at least in part due to the lack of chain. TCG decks play /Palomuro/ to access Nat Beast. This should show you how much impact a generic Rank 4 foolish has on the game. If you haven't understood this before now, and you refuse to look at the evidence we now have, there's no point in continuing arguments.

 

And no, I'm not ignoring the OP. It's been covered, and as I said, not going to argue at a wall.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Well you're wrong on Noden there for starters.

Noden has the effect of truly making R4nk generic; an example would be something like Shaddolls having access to chain when normally they would have to work for it or as OCG currently has to, run things like Hattrick, Jigabyte or Archfiend.

 

Noden removes any shred of work needed to make chain, and create instant Foolish/Stacks (pun intended). However, this is more of problem for 3 material R4nks like Shock than Chain, but it is a fairly significant problem for chain nevertheless 

The Noden Fenix FTK is significantly boosted by the ability to mill the valon tuner, but this one is yours

And here's where I think you're short sighted. Sure maybe Stick Chair weren't chain's damning blow, but they sure are something keeping it away right now. Example would be something like Future Fusion and Shaddolls, Shaddolls didn't get FUFU banned, but are vital in KEEPING it banned. (The example is questionably poor because unlike the chain case, Konami actually hit the more degenerate problem of the Two)

 

I have an idea on EMEM/Dracopals that I'll get to as soon as I have time to type it out in detail

 

If we look at EMEM, the main things chain will add to the deck is further cohesion between the Pal and Mage Engine by making searching plushfire, easier. It would make Naturia Beast Easier to make and overcome the problem of requiring a normal due to Bulb, and it can in theory be used to stack Maxx/Veiler/Oger. I think that about covers it?

 

Well first of all, the Mage problem. Removal of the Mages in OCG has significantly reduced the inclusion of Lavaval Chain, and additionally, the removal of Chain in TCG, has NOT removed the inclusion of Mages in EMEm, so who's really the problem here Black? A cohesion factor, or the engine that generates the advantage regardless of the cohesion? It seems silly to damn Chain for the crimes of the Mages.

 

Now if you're going to come at me by saying that I out-cried the banning of Juggler in OCG, this remains true. It was a terrible and shortsighted hit. But the limitation or banning of Plushfire likewise turns Chain into at best a discard blank with Clown or a Scale with Mirror/Limited Plush. Both of which are cumbersome interactions if one considers the limitation of Eyes (which I stated needs to go hand in hand with Jugglers movement to /stasis at 3) and the existence of the Dracoslayers. You're putting chain in just to get a scale or a discard when focusing more on the Slayer engine would do both those things more effectively. Will Chain be a little better? Yes, sure, but hardly banworthy at that point in time.

 

Naturia Beast is a product of the hole that TCG dug itself largely. The slow culmination of the pool eroding banlists combined with the purge of all other major decks in the October Banlist has largely created a state where Pepe is a clear winner in TCG, with Kozmo being the only other major deck, and one that's coming up short. We are already seeing the weaking of Naturia Beast with the introduction of Artifact Kozmo and Tin Can, something that will only become more so apparent with the rise of the Monarchs and introduction of other non-pendulum decks. Beast, like it did in OCG, will largely fade in power, likewise weakening Chain and hitting the justification for it's space in an already tight Extra.

 

The Hand Traps, you might have a point here, but at this point, it would require you to permanently go -1 (Chain summon) in an extraordinarily vulnerable fashion, resolve Turtle/Lizard, to just get your hands on a hand trap when in reality you're quite likely to get said trap anyway if you exercise your full searching capability in addition to Turtle-Lizard. However, I will concede that you could in theory cut down on the number of Hand Trap you need to run with chain, therefore converting Extra Deck space into maindeck space. Sure, neat? Yeah definitely. Ban Worthy? I think not

[Slinky]

Foolish Burial will need to go up before Lavalval Chain can come off.

 

In terms of design, if a card does something BETTER than a limited card, the card should obviously be banned. And unlike Burial, Chain is consistent, on TOP of being just flat out better than Burial in all ways.

 

Which also leads to the Stick/Chair thing. The Stick/Chair combo is a gimmick, its inconsistent, and only becomes consistent when you add a bunch of stuff like Call of the Haunted to revive that Stick that died to get the combo off, or just a lot of draw power, which takes up a lot of deck space.. or just slap in a Chain in your ED, and you now have a lot of room in your main deck because you don't have to run all that stuff.

 

Furthermore, Chain's existence further inhibits future design on graveyard-oriented effects (specifically, things that can banish themselves to do X). Noden and Instant Fusion is another example of inhibiting future design, but thats a topic for another day.

[Toffee.]

Why don't we just give Seraphs a RotA?

Oh, right, Seraphs aren't really relevant anymore.

[Arimetal]

literally half the people jabroniing about lavaval chain (including you) are only doing it because the ban of chain made half of the decks that combo'ed useless and inconsistent.

I only want it back for Zombies pretty much.

 

Also not reading pass this comment cause I'm lazy.

 

Here's how I see it:

Limit it.

 

Constant and repeated chain spam is retarded, but one will allow rogue decks to set up like they need to more easily. Dumping cards can be really powerful for sure, and winter has a good point that chain simply won't break the meta completely. It will have impact, for sure. But it isn't killing anyone. Although I agree that the DNF thread is utterly stupid, there was one comment I agree with:

"... it was the easy hit..."

 

Why don't we hit the funking card that started this as well? That only makes sense. I mean, I understand that the card that enabled it is gone now, but why let a card that can be abused run around in the first place?

[Blake]

Well you're wrong on Noden there for starters.

 

Noden has the effect of truly making R4nk generic; an example would be something like Shaddolls having access to chain when normally they would have to work for it or as OCG currently has to, run things like Hattrick, Jigabyte or Archfiend.

 

Noden removes any shred of work needed to make chain, and create instant Foolish/Stacks (pun intended). However, this is more of problem for 3 material R4nks like Shock than Chain, but it is a fairly significant problem for chain nevertheless

Uh... this doesn't prove Chain's ban is related to Norden. At all.

 

Chain's not broken because of Shaddolls. Nor is that the reason you would ever consider it for a ban. That's a GOOD use, but it's not a broken one.

 

Norden enables all R4s to a stupid degree, but the decks that can and want to abuse Chain can already make it. Mages, Zombies, and so forth.

 

So no, Norden is an illusory and desperate connotation.

 

And here's where I think you're short sighted. Sure maybe Stick Chair weren't chain's damning blow, but they sure are something keeping it away right now. Example would be something like Future Fusion and Shaddolls, Shaddolls didn't get FUFU banned, but are vital in KEEPING it banned. (The example is questionably poor because unlike the chain case, Konami actually hit the more degenerate problem of the Two)

I'm not saying Stick is fair. I'm not saying it shouldn't be hit. You don't seem to grasp this.

 

The reason citing Stick/Chair is a desperation point is that the ENTIRETY of the Clownblade maindeck was less than 6 months old (or would have been) when Chain was banned. It was the only card that could be hit. Regardless of now, when it was banned, it was the only option, due to product cycles.

 

I have an idea on EMEM/Dracopals that I'll get to as soon as I have time to type it out in detail

 

If we look at EMEM, the main things chain will add to the deck is further cohesion between the Pal and Mage Engine by making searching plushfire, easier. It would make Naturia Beast Easier to make and overcome the problem of requiring a normal due to Bulb, and it can in theory be used to stack Maxx/Veiler/Oger. I think that about covers it?

 

Well first of all, the Mage problem. Removal of the Mages in OCG has significantly reduced the inclusion of Lavaval Chain, and additionally, the removal of Chain in TCG, has NOT removed the inclusion of Mages in EMEm, so who's really the problem here Black? A cohesion factor, or the engine that generates the advantage regardless of the cohesion? It seems silly to damn Chain for the crimes of the Mages.

Uh... Pedra shows up in TCG already. Not AS much as mages, but it still shows its head, so Pepe IS run less. Not to an insane degree, but less.

 

Not being able to search Plush via Chain IS a big deal. The deck isn't as strong in TCG due to this lack of cohesion, meaning it's not the absolutely dominant force it was in the OCG. I'm not defending plush, but it just showcases how lowering the consistency between the two hurts the deck's performance. Not enoguh to knock it out, but enough to bump it down to T1/Best deck instead of near T0.

 

Now if you're going to come at me by saying that I out-cried the banning of Juggler in OCG, this remains true. It was a terrible and shortsighted hit. But the limitation or banning of Plushfire likewise turns Chain into at best a discard blank with Clown or a Scale with Mirror/Limited Plush. Both of which are cumbersome interactions if one considers the limitation of Eyes (which I stated needs to go hand in hand with Jugglers movement to /stasis at 3) and the existence of the Dracoslayers. You're putting chain in just to get a scale or a discard when focusing more on the Slayer engine would do both those things more effectively. Will Chain be a little better? Yes, sure, but hardly banworthy at that point in time.

Jugg isn't short-sighted. I thought it was, but LS are only going to get better, so it's as much a smack to LS as Pepe.\

 

You complain about Palomuro wasting an NS... but then you insist Chain doing the same thing but better isn't bad?

 

Chain is never going to not be banworthy. It doesn't matter about current impact, and this is a concept you really seem to be incapable of grasping.

 

Not impacting the game AT THIS POINT IN TIME =/= fair or unbanworthy. That's how you end up with stupidly bad formats.

 

Naturia Beast is a product of the hole that TCG dug itself largely. The slow culmination of the pool eroding banlists combined with the purge of all other major decks in the October Banlist has largely created a state where Pepe is a clear winner in TCG, with Kozmo being the only other major deck, and one that's coming up short. We are already seeing the weaking of Naturia Beast with the introduction of Artifact Kozmo and Tin Can, something that will only become more so apparent with the rise of the Monarchs and introduction of other non-pendulum decks. Beast, like it did in OCG, will largely fade in power, likewise weakening Chain and hitting the justification for it's space in an already tight Extra.

No, it's not.

 

Nat Beast has been hated since, at least, Sam Format. And this brings us back to the last part of Lavalval Chain.

 

Impact at any given moment doesn't matter when a card has the ability to drastically change the gamestate. It shuts out decks and overpolarizes, making for extremely one-sided gamestates that in no way promote playing YGO. It's not a factor of the TCG, it's a factor of the game as a whole.

 

Hell, you said how Shock was fair for ages, but back in 2014's worlds, the Japanese blogs were full of comments celebrating its ban. So it's not a matter of "TCG only", everyone thinks it, the OCG just doesn't hit things people want hit in a timely fashion.

 

The Hand Traps, you might have a point here, but at this point, it would require you to permanently go -1 (Chain summon) in an extraordinarily vulnerable fashion, resolve Turtle/Lizard, to just get your hands on a hand trap when in reality you're quite likely to get said trap anyway if you exercise your full searching capability in addition to Turtle-Lizard. However, I will concede that you could in theory cut down on the number of Hand Trap you need to run with chain, therefore converting Extra Deck space into maindeck space. Sure, neat? Yeah definitely. Ban Worthy? I think not

I never said a thing about hand traps. I said it with Nekroz, but not here. Yes, it's a thing, but how is a -1 to get a card that keeps you from losing bad?

 

Why do people have that much issue with that? "Oh, you -1d to not die/win! How horrible!"

 

Advantage means nothing if you're not alive.

 

also:

I only want it back for Zombies pretty much.

 

Also not reading pass this comment cause I'm lazy.

 

Here's how I see it:

Limit it.

 

Constant and repeated chain spam is retarded, but one will allow rogue decks to set up like they need to more easily. Dumping cards can be really powerful for sure, and winter has a good point that chain simply won't break the meta completely. It will have impact, for sure. But it isn't killing anyone. Although I agree that the DNF thread is utterly stupid, there was one comment I agree with:

"... it was the easy hit..."

 

Why don't we hit the funking card that started this as well? That only makes sense. I mean, I understand that the card that enabled it is gone now, but why let a card that can be abused run around in the first place?

Limiting it doesn't work. You are neither the first nor the last to suggest such, but a limit doesn't cut it.

 

While there are some kinds of decks (i.e. Clownblade, Infernities, etc.) that run multiples, the average decks only needs to run 1. The uses in Pepe or Pedra only use 1 each, yet it still has power impact there.

 

The idea of limiting it doesn't cut it, because if the average deck only runs 1... it does nothing to the average deck.

 

Also, blaming the abused in the case of Chain does not work. Why? He abuses things that are otherwise fairly benign, such as Heroic Challenger - Thousand Blades (bad) and Performage Trick Clown (decent). Not every card that gets abused by chain is a problem... Hell, I wouldn't even call Glow-Up Bulb a problem, though it has the potential to be when Chain exists.

 

Chain is the glue that ties all of these decks together. You can't turn a blind-eye to what Chain does and blame it on his targets forever.

[SirReal]

Just to clear things up, the relation Norden has to Chain is that Chain can set up the grave for cards that help loop Norden like Vylon Cube.

[Arimetal]

Limiting it doesn't work. You are neither the first nor the last to suggest such, but a limit doesn't cut it.

 

While there are some kinds of decks (i.e. Clownblade, Infernities, etc.) that run multiples, the average decks only needs to run 1. The uses in Pepe or Pedra only use 1 each, yet it still has power impact there.

 

The idea of limiting it doesn't cut it, because if the average deck only runs 1... it does nothing to the average deck.

 

Also, blaming the abused in the case of Chain does not work. Why? He abuses things that are otherwise fairly benign, such as Heroic Challenger - Thousand Blades (bad) and Performage Trick Clown (decent). Not every card that gets abused by chain is a problem... Hell, I wouldn't even call Glow-Up Bulb a problem, though it has the potential to be when Chain exists.

 

Chain is the glue that ties all of these decks together. You can't turn a blind-eye to what Chain does and blame it on his targets forever.

Point taken for sure.

 

But this is like the case of the murderous queen. She's important to a large amount, which is what I want to see work out, but is also responsible for evil things, which is what you are pleading against.

 

I feel it's unjust to a lot of decks that use this card. This card also inspired quite a bit of innovation, which is always a good thing. It would also be unjust to hit some of those other cards that aren't even that good I suppose as well. There is no winning here.

 

Off the list: Stupid stuff

 

On the list: Innocent decks slaughtered and some innovation lost

 

Again, that's how I see it. I can deal with it being ban, I won't complain too much, but it's a shame. IMO though

 

New Suggestion:

You can only use 1/2 of Lavalval Chain

[Toffee.]

I feel it's unjust to a lot of decks that use this card. This card also inspired quite a bit of innovation, which is always a good thing. It would also be unjust to hit some of those other cards that aren't even that good I suppose as well. There is no winning here.

Isn't common knowledge that, if a Deck needs broken cards to exist, then it shouldn't exist in the first place?

 

Which is why, whenever a Deck gets hit, the hits are almost always the key cards of the Deck.

Like, for example, if a Deck was basically "Summon Jinzo and you auto-win, regardless of what happened"; Jinzo would be hit.