Lavaval Chain

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

 

2 Level 4 monsters Once per turn: You can detach 1 Xyz Material from this card to activate 1 of these effects;

● Send 1 card from your Deck to the Graveyard.

● Choose 1 monster from your Deck and place it on top of your Deck

 

 

Firstly, f*** this man, y'all need to stop dickrolling his bad moves on the list

 

 

Hmm, lets get some controversy up in this b****

 

To start, some common counterarguments:

 

Countless

 

"There are countless loops, OTKs, and FTKs with this deck!"

 

So before I say anything more, let us note the presence of "are" in this sentence. This argument specifically implies that RIGHT NOW, there are countless such combos that Lavalval Chain is broken in, not IN THE FUTURE. But don't worry, I'll get the to the future later.

 

Anyways, as for this argument: If you can't count to 4, you've got a problem and it's not Lavalval Chain.

 

4 is the exact number of decks I have been able to dig up where Chain could have even a slight competitive impact: OniZombie OTK, Norleras wipe, Infernities, and Fenix/Igknight FTK.

 

The first 2 are bad, like Flint Lock bad, Infernities got well-deserved hits on their own, and Fenix/Igknight FTK has hits that are well-deserved, that incidentally aren't Lavalval Chain (and while Noden still has to build up some history, Fenix has a well-known one).

 

Clownblade/PEPE used to be an argument, but it literally doesn't need Chain anymore to be broken.

 

There are other weird loops, like the PsiBlocker loop, but these are on the level of Ojama OTK, Nurse Burn FTK, or Quillbolt Cannon Soldier FTK, and are both not worth talking about nor worth using as a reason to put anything on the list - absolutely no impact in a competitive scene. 

 

Now, I acknowledge there may be more that I've simply not heard of; however, as I constantly asked people what I was forgetting in the last thread and never got an answer (unless you are in the "Upstart+Chain is broken!" camp), I assume there are no others.

 

 

The Dragon Ruler Effect

 

"Lavalval Chain was banned so that Konami would not have to ban 1000 100 20 5 4 cards in its place"

 

There are a couple different problems with this argument.

 

1. To date, there have only been 4 cards on the list that can arguably be said to be related to Lavalval Chain: Performage Damajuggler (O) Infernity Archfiend(T), Infernity Barrier(T), and Djinn Releaser of Rituals(T), and important note here, all three of these cards banned in TCG are at three and not causing the slightest problem OCG side. This is likely the butterfly effect of all TCG's tampering

 

Before I get into this further, can we first acknowledge that each of these cards is powerful on their own merits? These are cards that either WOULD have been hit without Chain, or, if they were not, SHOULD be hit if you're the kind of person that thinks that "degeneracy" is a real argument (which I assume you are, because that's one of the reasons you think Chain should be banned).

 

Second, it is also worth noting that while Lavalval Chain CONTRIBUTED to their respective hits, the driving force behind each one was another entire deck that deserved a hit far more.

 

You could bring up the future cards argument, but I will address that separately.

 

This is an entirely different beast than Dragon Rulers, which got at least 4 cards I can name off the top of my head on the list, and a good deal more that I can't remember immediately--and for each of these cards, there is no question that Dragon Rulers were the reason they were put on the list (except Gold Sarc, I guess, where you can bring up the argument of Necroface).

 

2. While this is not necessarily an argument against Chain being broken, it is worth noting that Konami doesn't always hit the problem card in the interaction. In fact, they frequently do their best to avoid doing so. The best example is, of course, the Dragon Rulers themselves, with Konami hitting MANY other cards in their place before deciding they had to go. But this extends elsewhere, such as with Blaze Fenix, which is (as far as I'm aware) essentially the sole reason Genex Birdman and Divine Wind occupy the spots on the list they do today.

Even if we were assuming Lavalval Chain WAS the problem card in any of its interactions, that doesn't necessarily correlate with a ban.

 

It is even possible to argue that Lavalval Chain was a victim of this effect, as the list already over hit the real problem deck (Nekroz) with the poorly thought out Djinn and Shruitt bans

 

3. One of the few decks you could actually argue Chain breaks is OniZombie, of which a key component (and the deck's main interaction with Chain) is Mezuki. It is worth remembering that Mezuki actually went UP the list while Chain existed, not the other way around. Not only have Chain's effects in terms of getting other cards on the list been minimal at best, one of the worst cards to have coexisting with Chain actually got off the list.

 

 

The Dragon Ruler Effect v2

 

"Lavalval Chain restricts future card design like how Dragon Rulers made it hard to make new Dragon support without breaking them all over again!"

 

Here's the "future design" argument we all know and either feverishly hate or faithfully worship.

 

First off, no-one here is from Konami, to my knowledge. You don't know what Konami will do in the future. If they make more decks like Qli or Ritual Beast, Lavalval Chain will be s*** in the future. For the future we can vaguely make out, out of Speedroids, Majespecter, Dynamist, Shiranui, and whatever other decks I may have forgotten, only Shiranui looks like it would be even remotely a problem with Chain, and to be entirely honest I'd guess it's far more likely Konami is going to use that card as an excuse to hit Mezuki again.

 

 

Breakthrough Skill and Co.

 

"Lavalval Chain can send dangerous Spells and Traps!"

 

I can't actually see this as a serious argument, and I can't believe people actually bring it up. Sending Breakthrough Skill, Skill Prisoner, or Galaxy Cyclone (the 3 most generic options for this sort of thing) is a shitty play on every possible count. First off, let's remember that Breakthrough and Galaxy come with a turn delay so I don't know what you're really trying to get out of it in the first place.

 

Second, consider the following: If your opponent has a monster that negating with Breakthrough would actually work on, and it's not a monster that prevents you from summoning Lavalval Chain in the first place--why aren't you summoning something that can actually remove the threat? If your opponent has a face-up Spell/Trap card you badly need to remove, BUT it doesn't stop you from summoning Lavalval Chain, why aren't you just going for Castel? More importantly, why is a rank 4 pop 1 S/T supposed to be a problem in the first place? As a side note, why aren't you sending Shaddoll Dragon anyways, which can pop without having to wait a turn for the delay and can actually be useful in other ways? Skill Prisoner might be one of the best options if only because you can use it on your opponent's turn, but as far as I'm aware it's a pretty mediocre Trap anyways.

 

The other main argument on this end is Shuffle Reborn, which is even more laughable because A. It requires you to run Shuffle Reborn, and B. That's a pretty shitty play by almost any measure.

 

But what about non-generic options? The good decks, like Shaddolls, already have better options (exhibit A: Squamata & Shadow Games, Dante, that other BA that dumps S/Ts, virtually everything about Nekroz, etc). The bad decks use Lavalval Chain to become good or slightly subpar, not broken, unless suddenly being able to pseudo-search Gem-Knight Fusion or trigger UA Penalty Box has become such a big deal.

 

 

The Problem Card

 

"These other cards aren't really broken. If we hit Lavalval Chain, we solve all these problems at once."

 

A close cousin of the Dragon Ruler effect. It's also wrong.

 

Mezuki is a problem card that could very easily end up back on the list again.

Blaze Fenix is literally only used for OTKs and FTKs.

 

Infernities were lock-looping before it was cool.

 

Norleras is like the epitome of shitty card design: A stupidly good effect that's only held back because of stupidly hard summoning conditions.

Trick Clown, and the other Performages, clearly have enough problems on their own merits that are very easily be observed.

 

As far as I'm aware there are no other broken interactions, but for any that do you noticed I forgot, look at it again and make sure that the actually broken card is Chain, before you decide that hitting consistency instead of the actual problems is how you solve problems.

 

I'm sure I will have to reiterate the pepe point again a few times in this post for some of you to get it through your heads.

 

Chain is clearly NOT the problem with pepe cause having a chainless pepe in TCG did NOT stop it from becoming the best deck. While having a chain Dracopals allows other decks to go on par with it in OCG. 

 

 

So-and-so Deck is Broken With It

 

"HEROs, Nekroz, Shaddolls, PEPE, etc"

 

HEROs get yet another way to dump/search Shadow Mist. How utterly terrifying. It's almost as if half the deck isn't dedicated to this very thing already.

 

Nekroz get to search more. It's almost as if the entire deck doesn't do that already. Also Nekroz are dead and don't have anything to mill. The stack effect is slow as balls, and nothing you're gonna draw will save your ass that much. If it was so broken, OCG'd be stacking hand traps with Lizard Draw

 

Shaddolls get to dump things. Don't try to justify Norden as balanced, because it's not. Otherwise r4nk in Dolls takes effort. Shaddolls are ALSO dead in TCG

 

Clowns get to dump things. It's almost as if the deck didn't get even more bonkers when Chain left.

 

PEPE? Sure. Hitting the Mages put Chain outa commission largely, hitting chain clearly hasn't put pepe outa commission has it?

 

And now that those are out of the way, here's a few arguments in favor of bringing Chain back, rather than counterarguments to keeping Chain banned.

 

 

Level the Playing Field

 

"Many rogue decks are greatly hampered by the banning of Chain; possibly even more so than the fact that the meta decks are still largely untouched by that very same list."

 

First, note one thing: Very few to none of these rogue decks are broken with Chain. Be it Gem-Knights, U.A., various Ritual decks trying to trigger in-grave Ritual effects, to Synchro Fusionist plays outside of Noden, the only thing bringing Chain back would do is allow these decks to compete better, not necessarily get a 1:1 win-loss ratio. 

 

In contrast, as a quick example, Shaddolls trying to use Lavalval Chain are typically wasting their time in any case as well as incurring a huge opportunity cost, in regards to the fact that the level 4s they run typically have better effects when used to Fusion Summon. Granted Norden changes this, but again, 3x Instant Norden is a much bigger problem than a lone chain. This goes for most meta decks; the only meta deck that actually used Chain was Nekroz, specifically for the Djinn lock, which is obviously impossible now.

 

So bringing Chain back would actually be one of the few generic moves on the list that would benefit rogue decks far more than meta decks.

 

 

It's a Fair Card

 

"Lavalval Chain is a setup card that itself requires setup to use. The costs incurred in summoning it balance it out."

 

Summoning Chain almost always requires 2 things: A flat -1, which cannot be directly redeemed by its own effects, and 2. Your Normal Summon that turn. While the first is true of Foolish Burial, which is obviously at a disadvantage due to not being located in the Extra Deck, that disadvantage is remedied quite a bit by the 2nd condition. That Normal Summon is an opportunity cost for many decks that frequently could be used for alternative plays--as could the monsters used to overlay. Getting a controlled dump with some resource investment is hardly overpowered.

 

 

The Future Meta

 

"For the foreseeable future, Lavalval Chain will be a bad card."

 

Contrary to what is often said, I would argue that the format we're entering is one where Lavalval Chain will actually kind of suck, not one where Chain's presence will cause the banlisting of other cards. 2 particular trends are leading to this: The prevalence of Pendulum decks, who typically find grave resources harder to recover or capitalize on than Extra Deck setup, and increasing level variance.

 

OH s***. HANG WINTER. CHAIN. PEPE. TIER -4500938509438509889

 

n***a stop biting my s***. OCG did pepe without Mages, Chain faded away except for occasional players running Nat beast. TCG killed chain, pepe still the top deck.

 

Rank 4s are, for many newer decks, becoming notably harder to make as newer decks are including monsters with a wider range of levels, such as Igknights, DD, or Magicians. Furthermore, the return from summoning Chain in these decks is becoming lower, as not only are Pendulum decks typically less able to exploit grave resources, but the Pendulums locked as XYZ material and sent to the grave as XYZ material are also harder to exploit.

[Aman Indra]

Regardless of the opinions, gamestate or further abuse, this JABRONI needs to stay banned for eternity.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Regardless of the opinions, gamestate or further abuse, this motherf***er needs to stay banned for eternity.

.....why? Or are you just desperately attempting to shitpost?

[Tinkerer]

My opinions on this is simply that Chain is a better version of an already limited card. The problem here lies in the fact that unlike Foolish, this card doesn't slow down at 1 and is ridiculously easy to access in most decks.

 

I really have no love nor hate for this card itself (this I really don't care where on the list it is), but I'd rather see Foolish come up before this comes back.

[Progenitor]

It's a crutch.  In fact, most of your arguments can be disputed right here:

 

Countless

 

"There are countless loops, OTKs, and FTKs with this deck!"

 

So before I say anything more, let us note the presence of "are" in this sentence. This argument specifically implies that RIGHT NOW, there are countless such combos that Lavalval Chain is broken in, not IN THE FUTURE. But don't worry, I'll get the to the future later.

 

The thing with chain is that, while cards in the foreseeable future aren't a problem, this thing is a generic, easily accessed enabler, which is NEVER future-proof.  Eventually, something else was gonna come along to add to the 4 things on your list.  maybe it wont happen next format, or the next, or the next, etc, but anyone with a basic understanding of Quantum Physics can tell you that no matter how unlikely, anything within the laws of the universe is going to happen, it's just a matter of how long until it does.

 

This card is safer on the list than off it.  It has the potential to increase the power of already powerful decks with no effort, as well as future decks.  There really isn't a benefit to leaving it off that significantly offsets the safety of leaving it on.  That's all it is.

[ihop]

You've outdone yourself here jfc

[Aman Indra]

yeah call it shitposting but this thing needs and will stay banned whether yr chilly ass likes it or not

[UltimateIRS]

Quantum Physics

 

what

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

what

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_law

 

Anything that can happen will happen. Something will break Lavaval eventually. But there's a few flaws in that logic

 

Either that or he's trying to link the 2nd Law of thermodynamics with YGO and equating "breaking" [of a card] with tending towards chaos

 

The problem is the assumptions here. Unlike the universe, YGO is far from infinite. There aren't nearly infinite combinations possible so the tendency for murphy's law to become a certainty is gone. Is it likely? Maybe, BUT, Ill get into that in a sec

 

 

It's a crutch.  In fact, most of your arguments can be disputed right here:

 

 

The thing with chain is that, while cards in the foreseeable future aren't a problem, this thing is a generic, easily accessed enabler, which is NEVER future-proof.  Eventually, something else was gonna come along to add to the 4 things on your list.  maybe it wont happen next format, or the next, or the next, etc, but anyone with a basic understanding of Quantum Physics can tell you that no matter how unlikely, anything within the laws of the universe is going to happen, it's just a matter of how long until it does.

 

This card is safer on the list than off it.  It has the potential to increase the power of already powerful decks with no effort, as well as future decks.  There really isn't a benefit to leaving it off that significantly offsets the safety of leaving it on.  That's all it is.

 

 

1) Your premise is faulty in assuming that YGO is either going to be infinite and also assuming that infinite combinations will become possible.

 

secondly, one can apply marker theory to Lavaval Chain, and use it as a marker to scout out those deck. It pointed out infernity, it pointed out PEPE, it pointed out Nekroz. It will likely point out the next broken deck. And you can't even argue that chain was the problem with those decks cause they need(ed) hits even without chain.

 

 

My opinions on this is simply that Chain is a better version of an already limited card. The problem here lies in the fact that unlike Foolish, this card doesn't slow down at 1 and is ridiculously easy to access in most decks.

 

I really have no love nor hate for this card itself (this I really don't care where on the list it is), but I'd rather see Foolish come up before this comes back.

 

It's hard to compare the two. As a monster Chain is far more vulnerable than Foolish.

[Kaiji]

did you actually just plagiarize

http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/index.php?/topic/167025-ld-lavalval-chain/

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

did you actually just plagiarize

Kinda, there were bits that needed changing, but he pretty much made it perfectly and I didn't feel like digging up the discussion black and I had from ages ago.

 

Never claimed it as mine though. This WAS Erosionseeker's post right? Idk I can't see DNF anymore. Just had this left over on notepad

[Kaiji]

sure didn't give credit either

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

sure didn't give credit either

Shhh, creditz to Bundle of Sticks/Erosion Seeker it is then

[ENMaker]

 

El oh el. Most of the changes appear to be adding in mention of Pepe. Quite the job not to give any mention to or credit to the original thread, and especially only making that miniscule amount of changes to a post over 2200 words long. Good banter in the TCG section once more.

 

As for the card, it's going to need Foolish getting higher than 1 before it will have a chance to come back.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

El oh el. Most of the changes appear to be adding in mention of Pepe. Quite the job not to give any mention to or credit to the original thread, and especially only making that miniscule amount of changes to a post 2199 words long. Good banter in the TCG section once more.

Sue me. Fact remains you still got nothing on chain. And what do you want me to add in? Cloudians? PEPE is the only relevant deck with it anyway >_>

[ENMaker]

I was just greatly amused to see someone plagiarise 2200 words with minimal changes and the slightest indication they hadn't written it themselves. Garoudude is the hero this forum needs.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I was just greatly amused to see someone plagiarise 2200 words with minimal changes and the slightest indication they hadn't written it themselves. Garoudude is the hero this forum needs.

Wouldn't google beat him to the job though? It's really not that hard

 

 

Regardless...what's the actual point against Chain over my scruples which we all know is lacking

[ENMaker]

Foolish Burial is at 1, the stacking effect is Destiny Draw in card form and is unique to Chain. So it has the effect of a card at 1 and a unique search anything kind of thing. If there comes a point where it's not good I can't imagine what the game will have gotten to. I think it could come back certainly in the future, but 3 Chain days are over.

[Slinky]

did you actually just plagiarize

http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/index.php?/topic/167025-ld-lavalval-chain/

 

oh god, that topic is cancer.

 

Mezuki, Tricklown, Damage Juggler, and Shadow Mist aren't good cards?

 

funking lol. I'll abstain from Oni, because idk what that is,

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Foolish Burial is at 1, the stacking effect is Destiny Draw in card form and is unique to Chain. So it has the effect of a card at 1 and a unique search anything kind of thing. If there comes a point where it's not good I can't imagine what the game will have gotten to. I think it could come back certainly in the future, but 3 Chain days are over.

Except for the fact that literally no one runs 3 outside of Infernity and you would have seen stacking in pepe if it were any good

[ihop]

Nobody runs 3 foolish burial because it's limited lol

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Nobody runs 3 foolish burial because it's limited lol

3 Lavaval chain...a lota OCG pepe builds run 0, occasionally 1 (this number is rising and falling) but never more than one.

 

Hero OCG decks don't even run 1. If the stack eff was so good heros should run it with allure and diamond dude, but nope

[Slinky]

I'll detract to the point Black makes regarding OCG scenarios.

 

OCG runs what it likes, not what is optimal

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I'll detract to the point Black makes regarding OCG scenarios.

 

OCG runs what it likes, not what is optimal

That's not a true claim though. It might be applicable in the smaller locals, but the larger tournaments it fizzles.  

[Toffee.]

Lets ban Chain Dog.

Then we can unban Lavalval Chain.

 

:^)