Rape Culture

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Axioms:

 

1) Sober Males engages in coitus with intoxicated female - considered rape on Males part

2) Males and Females are considered equal in nature

 

Problems:

1) Sober Female engages in coitus with intoxicated Male - not considered rape

2) Intoxicated Female engages in coitus with intoxicated Male - considered rape on Males part

3) Rules of Engagement, "who engaged who"

 

...there's just so much grey area here that a lot of peoples lives are ruined for dubious to outright false reasons just like many lives are shattered by rape

 

Then there's the whole s*** storm of how rape would factor in with LGB couples and the red tape surrounding criticizing that.

 

All in all, the rape laws really need revision, which congress is finally doing, moving it away from Campus regulated kangaroo courts to actual prosecution 

 

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/07/30/bill-would-strengthen-due-process-rights-students-fraternities-accused-sexual

[Wahrheit]

your recent posting trend is not a good look

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

your recent posting trend is not a good look

Not denying any of that however. Only bringing up a point about gender bias in rape prosecution and bringing attention to a start of a fix. Now your turn, how do those stats make what I said any less true?

[epicmemesbro]

This rape culture myth only promote bandwagon behavior and a "guilty until proven innocent" ideology. These campus consent laws like the one in California aren't helping at all. The law requires some proof of consent, which is difficult if both parties are I intoxicated.

Also a lack of understanding when it comes to defining what is rape and what is consent and what is that grey area is also an issue.

[Wahrheit]

I wonder how many women you both know who have been abused but won't report it because they're afraid they'll hear exactly what you're saying

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I wonder how many women you both know who have been abused but won't report it because they're afraid they'll hear exactly what you're saying

Too many, but I also know a non-zero number of men who have been incarcerated on sketchy to false allegations

[Wahrheit]

This is a problem that disproportionately affects women and screaming "but men also" minimizes the harm that gets done to them while adding nothing to the work being done, also any changes benefiting women would benefit men too because the abuse is along the same lines

 

It's not always about you

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

This is a problem that disproportionately affects women and screaming "but men also" minimizes the harm that gets done to them while adding nothing to the work being done, also any changes benefiting women would benefit men too because the abuse is along the same lines

 

It's not always about you

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

 

"the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men"

 

I'm sorry, but almost 2:3 is a proportion I'm quite worried about

 

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

 

a look at the loosely defined grey areas that constitute rape, and are currently not being flushed out with today's due process 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

The fact that if someone says "Men get raped too and we need to make that known" is so adamantly followed by "There's more women raped" and similar statements/ideas show me that it's a problem.

You can't ignore one just for being not as often. Rape is rape and it's bad no matter the gender.

 

I see no way saying men get raped too minimizes how bad it is for women. If anything it brings more attention to it by the fact that now more people are known to be raped, as opposed to only one gender.

Meaning that the more we acknowledge that men and women get raped, the more we can focus on finding ways to prevent rape in general.

 

Though pointing to perceived hypocrisy or w/e like in the OP is a bad way to go about it.

[Wahrheit]

You're citing a single survey against a national statistic, so you've gone and butchered your epistemological grounds, but you're also missing the larger point entirely

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Though pointing to perceived hypocrisy or w/e like in the OP is a bad way to go about it.

Do tell. Because I'm still unclear how pointing to a real and active social unjust bias in anyway hurts rape victims. If anything, pointing to the grey areas on the map will finally get people to realize that a hand wave and a coup de grâce on the prosecute in the accuser's favor is a terrible way to prosecute rape

You're citing a single survey against a national statistic, so you've gone and butchered your epistemological grounds, but you're also missing the larger point entirely

clearly you didn't read the second piece where the problems with national statistic are highlighted did you?

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Do tell. Because I'm still unclear how pointing to a real and active social unjust bias in anyway hurts rape victims. If anything, pointing to the grey areas on the map will finally get people to realize that a hand wave and a coup de grâce on the prosecute in the accuser's favor is a terrible way to prosecute rape

Well I just mean using that as a reason makes it seem you're placing the blame somewhere it shouldn't be. And can weigh the main point down with other kinds of arguments.

[epicmemesbro]

The 1 in 5 statistic is based on a flawed research that the CDC did. It misappropriated it's intended effect and only caused a hysteria that paved the way for the "rape culture" myth. It did in no way improve how campuses deal with assault.

 

 

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/no-1-in-5-women-have-not-been-raped-on-college-campuses/article/2551980

[Wahrheit]

louder for the people in the back

 

A program targeted at a disproportionately affected population will also benefit the population writ large; the opposite is not necessarily true

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I see no way saying men get raped too minimizes how bad it is for women. If anything it brings more attention to it by the fact that now more people are known to be raped, as opposed to only one gender.

Meaning that the more we acknowledge that men and women get raped, the more we can focus on finding ways to prevent rape in general.

 

 

I can repeat myself in larger text too!

[Wahrheit]

Except that it only gets brought up in response to discussions about sexual assault of women, just like "all lives matter" exists only as a response to #blacklivesmatter

 

Nobody has forgotten, nobody is ignoring anything, nobody is excluding protections for men from sexual assault prevention programs, trainings, or legislation

 

Acting like they are demonstrates an awful sense of entitlement and need to be the center of attention when an issue really affects other people more than it affects you

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Except that it only gets brought up in response to discussions about sexual assault of women, just like "all lives matter" exists only as a response to #blacklivesmatter

 

Nobody has forgotten, nobody is ignoring anything, nobody is excluding protections for men from sexual assault prevention programs, trainings, or legislation

 

Acting like they are demonstrates an awful sense of entitlement and need to be the center of attention when an issue really affects other people more than it affects you

This is a joke right? Nobody is excluding males? You brought up the point about females being afraid to come forward, you're clearly not aware of what happen when a male comes forward with a claim he was sexually assaulted. Nobody has forgotten, because there was never anything to forget. People just don't give a funk about one side of the equation and randomly spout faulty stats to try and further their goals. 

[VCR_CAT]

faulty stats

 

*Citation needed

 

Otherwise, you're just kinda shitting on them for the soul purpose of sounding right; not whether they're actually faulty or not.

[Wahrheit]

This is a joke right? Nobody is excluding males? You brought up the point about females being afraid to come forward, you're clearly not aware of what happen when a male comes forward with a claim he was sexually assaulted. Nobody has forgotten, because there was never anything to forget. People just don't give a funk about one side of the equation and randomly spout faulty stats to try and further their goals. 

X =/= ~Y

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Except that it only gets brought up in response to discussions about sexual assault of women, just like "all lives matter" exists only as a response to #blacklivesmatter

 

Nobody has forgotten, nobody is ignoring anything, nobody is excluding protections for men from sexual assault prevention programs, trainings, or legislation

 

Acting like they are demonstrates an awful sense of entitlement and need to be the center of attention when an issue really affects other people more than it affects you

The problem is more that it had to be brought up in response to discussions about sexual assault of women because there weren't that many discussions about sexual assault of men. So this was the way to gain more attention to the issue as a whole, instead of a gender issue.

That's how I've seen the issue so far at least.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

*Citation needed

 

Otherwise, you're just kinda shitting on them for the soul purpose of sounding right; not whether they're actually faulty or not.

*Points at the now 2 articles explaining why the CDC's 4/5 statistic is incorrect.

 

I'm not shitting on ANYONE, cause shitting on someone is neither gonna reduce male rape nor reduce false accusations against males

 

...well it might adversely do the latter because people will be afraid to come out and talk when there really was a case, but all the more reason not to s*** anyone about this

 

The idea is that a more firm set of guideline of what constitutes rape, the role of intoxication and other illicit substance uses, and removal of gender bias from our already faulty due process, is desperately needed

[Wahrheit]

 

 

Men as victims of rape

A new area of concern when considering so-called "rape apology" is the recognition of male victims of rape. Because most societies believe that men desire sex all the time and because they consider men to be the aggressors within society, reports of male rape are rarely taken seriously, especially if a woman was the rapist. The very way male anatomy functions would suggest that a man cannot be raped by a woman if he was not willing to have sex.^[33] However, everyone knows that the body and mind are not always in agreement. More compellingly, if alcohol, drugs or sleep remove the legal ability of a woman to give consent, wouldn't it be exactly the same for men? It seems this idea is difficult for a lot of people to grasp.^[34] This kind of bias can be seen, for example, in Japanese law, where "sexual assault" refers to cases when men are the victim (by women or men) and "rape" only applies to men-on-women rape. Traditionally, rape was defined in Anglo-American law as men-on-women only (this remained the US government's official definition before the 2010s) making it legally impossible to rape men.

As for male-on-male rape, since many of these rapes are perpetrated by and against gay men, there is a strong tone of victim-blaming by the authorities, both for being raped, and simply being gay.^[35] Particularly disturbing is that, in some parts of the world, men who attempt to report being raped by another man will suddenly find themselves arrested because their report was interpreted as an admission that they violated local anti-sodomy statutes, which can result in anything from fines, to prison, to execution.

Attempts to determine how many men are raped are, at best, wild estimates grounded on the assumption that men who have been raped are even more reluctant to report their experiences than women are. There are few if any quality studies that look at the issue of male rape, in or out of prison, but it is clearly a real issue that needs to be addressed.

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rape_apology#Men_as_victims_of_rape

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rape_culture

 

EDIT: This is to demonstrate that there is actually substantial coverage of men as victims of rape, and that your whining is redundant

 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

1.) Define "Substantial" in this case

2.) It even says there that the reports get misinterpreted or ignored.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rape_apology#Men_as_victims_of_rape

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rape_culture

 

EDIT: This is to demonstrate that there is actually substantial coverage of men as victims of rape, and that your whining is redundant

 

Not quite, the number for male rape is likely more closer to the 4 outa 10 mark than the 2 out of 10. If on average 4 out of every ten publicity exposes about rape are not about men, you have your gender bias and disproportional coverage right there

[VCR_CAT]

*Points at the now 2 articles explaining why the CDC's 4/5 statistic is incorrect.

 

I'm not shitting on ANYONE, cause shitting on someone is neither reduce male rape nor reduce false accusations against males

 

There ya go. Wasn't saying you were; just saying that if you don't back your claims that's what it'll sound like. That's all.

 

 

 

Also, this entire thread is pretty ridiculous. From what I've read, it just kinda sounds like:

"But what about men?!"

"Stop trying to take attention away from the women!"

 

Just... it sounds like you both think that attention regarding sexual offense crimes must be fought over and we've only got time for one gender, and that's kind of ridiculous.

 

Sexual offense against women is awful, and proper support for victims and legal action should be sought.

 

Sexual offense against men is ALSO awful, and attention should not be taken away from that.

 

Is bringing up "But what about men?" during a conversation about a women as victims kinda shitty? Yeah, it's kinda shitty. Just like how the reverse is kinda shitty. It's the conversational equivalent of this: "Hey bro, I just won a gold metal in sprinting!" "Cool, but hey I'm entering a sprinting contest next week and..." or "Hey, I'ma let you finish, but..."

It's not that it's really a gender thing; it's derailing the conversation which, as a consequence, does divert attention from the previous subject (that's just how it works).

 

Is the majority of rape cases with women as victims? Yes. Does the process for legal action regarding these cases need to be improved overall? Yes. Does this undermine the cases against men? No. Should these improvements being mutually beneficial for everyone? YES.

 

Yes, the system is flawed and changes need to be made. If either of you know means in which any of us can help further that improvement, go for it. If you don't, or you just don't have the intention to post it, then stop shitposting on the equivalent of an argument in a facebook comments section for some BS activist page that never gets anything. Stop wasting each other's time and getting people pissed at each other. Nothing's being accomplished right now and this is both hilarious to read and kinda sad overall.

 

 

And last but not least, Don't Be A Dick.