Opening the box - Casual vs. Competitive

[VCR_CAT]

I'm gonna drop several cents, because I have some ideas/opinions that I think you guys might want to hear.

 

I think we all need to be more... willing to accept how others may play the game, and accept that we all have very different preferences about how this game is played and what is most fun. This is the way with any games; everyone has their way of playing it and having their fun. Some people are like Klav who enjoy the game most through efficient victory; and some are like Cow who can just run junk and have a really good time doing so. Both are fine, but neither really mesh well together.

 

I think we need to be more aware of how each other prefers the game, and approach them accordingly. If you're a competitive-oriented player, maybe don't play with the casual player expecting though competition.

 

Me, myself, I enjoy trying a lot of different decks and some very weird strategies (see: Bamboo Artifact Vylons). I don't expect to go anywhere with a lot of these, but it's a nice challenge to stretch my abilities as a player/deck-builder and see what I can come up with. I enjoy the game most when it awards creativity and cleverness, a lot of the time through overlooked cards. Not everyone shares this same view.

 

So what I'm getting at here is that we all have different preferences and playstyles, and we aren't going to agree with all of them. We need to acknowledge this, and reach a point where we agree to disagree on some subjects, and learn to be empathetic towards these different styles and preferences before we respond to posts. Regarding deck feedback, it is very important to note that it's a section for feedback and not show-case. This is where being empathetic towards other preferences benefits, because you can give proper advice depending on what that player prefers. But giving purely competitive advice to a deck that's not trying to play that way can fall very flat. It's very important to recognize what the player is trying to do with their deck, and help them achieve that in the best way that they can.

 

 

And regarding Buster Bladers, I want to point out that I am fine with casual archetypes and some not being designed competitive. That's fine. I tagged with a friend using only Goyo synchros primarily because it was silly and fun. I don't have issues with people intentionally using noncompetitive strategies. But the things I was bringing up with Buster Bladers wasn't that I was griping that the deck wouldn't be competitive; I was griping that the deck wouldn't be functional. Robin hit the nail -on the head- when he said that BLS wasn't even good in casual. The deck was completely dysfunctional, and there's a chance that Buster Blader is going to be the same way.

 

 

So in the end, we need to be empathetic towards other players, and try our best to refrain from poo-pooing different ways of playing the game.

Anyways, ended up being a little distracted while writing this post, so hopefully the points I wanted to get across got across.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Black already mentioned this several times, so not going to be reiterating whatever he said on the matter.

 

There isn't a single way that you should play the game; some people do it to win and others play for fun, and not care about the wins/losses they get.

You should, however, try to make your Deck so you can at least stand a decent chance.

 

When people fix your Deck here, they want to help you make it run better, because either they've tested the same Deck a few times and know how to run it more efficiently, or just give some perspective on what would be a good choice in there. You do not need to be designing a Deck for regionals or whatever, but just be open to what people tell you.

 

If you want to retain a certain gimmick, then make sure you say a bit about it, so people get where you're going with the build.

Most you can do as a reviewer is simply suggest to them what to cut/add to the Deck so it functions as intended, without bricking as hard.

 

With YT Decks, probably best that you just avoid them. Same goes for stuff on the Wikia to an extent. There's a reason why people post guides on certain Decks; so you understand what works well and what doesn't. Black's done a few on P-pals and various other things; those are certainly helpful.

 

----

I admit that I am a casual player because lack of tournaments in this area (bar for some sneak peeks and other stuff that I don't have time to go to; blame Konami for not sending resources over here to do it) + other commitments. However, I do my best to optimize performance on whatever Deck I use, even if this tends to be lower-tier options, given budget (online is no problem).

 

Right now, that consists of Synchro MPBs [because I don't have $12/each for Draco in a normal build], U.A. (which I highly doubt Konami will give much-needed support to) and limited versions of Heraldry Beasts (along with misc. stuff).

 

Legacy support is cool, but until Konami gives them more toys to make them more efficient, they won't work as well as you think.

 

I tried playing around with the Buster Blader support from BOSH a while ago on YGOPro; ended up bricking a lot more than I'd like for them. Mainly, getting the Fusion out (because you cannot be relying on Companion Dragon to make it, and splashing random Dragons in the Deck doesn't help it go any faster). DNA Surgery alleviates that a bit, but even then it's unreliable.

 

Yes, the atmosphere of TCG is indeed that of a competitive mindset with regards to what goes on the metagame, however a Casual player can still have a few words in the section. Don't throw a tantrum because someone calls a card bad, while you think it's good.

 

They may be right, because indeed certain cards have been power creeped in the recent days.

 

If you're in the section, cards will be discussed by how interact with one another.

Certain ones work great in certain Decks, but others are gimmicky options that should not be considered.

 

You can mix and match stuff if you think it works; maybe something might click, but maybe it won't.

Sometimes, you find something new and that ends up being widespread.

 

Although, know that one Deck cannot be a good match against all. Some Decks can be a good fit against you; others are deadly poison.

Hell, you can play monster mash for all we care (not referring to Superheavies), but don't complain if you get a hard time fighting them.

 

----

tl;dr, if you want to play for competition and win, go ahead, although there is nothing wrong with being casual and playing for fun with a character Deck or something. Just realize that you're putting yourself at a disadvantage when playing against a Deck designed to win, while yours is not.

 

There are comeback victories, but do not expect the "Heart of the Cards" (or whatever the Japanese equivalent in DM is) to save you in pinches.

[Blake]

Yes, yes I did. Because you can have discussion and improvement without directly improving how you are as a player.

And the last sentence It makes you appreciate and enjoy it more. And many others as well. But not everyone feels that way.

And again. Improvement comes in a lot of different ways.

Not particularly, when people just throw up casual as an excuse. In addition, you asked why you needed to improve, but then said improvement happens. Doesn't exactly make sense.

 

It makes everyone appreciate and enjoy it more. The more into something you get, the more those go up. That's common sense.

 

Improvement doesn't come from a 'lot of ways'. It comes from understanding gamestates and counterpicks, how to side deck, how to construct a deck (see the former two), and how to properly play that deck.

 

For example, I can't play Nekroz for sheet. I haven't put any practice into it. Time is what makes you improve. And posting "CASUAL!" when someone tries to help you understand one of the former is a complete and utter lack of progress, in sections that are naturally set to helping progression, regardless of the amount of success.

 

 

Because you often say 'even casual can be competitive'. That... seems competitive.

wow i encourage not being a baddy 24/7, i am a ycs player

 

 

... Are you a SJW...? Because the worst thing said to him was...

 

If that is the worst he's gotten... that's not too bad... by any standards.

Hardly the 'worst' he got, but I definitely misremembered. However, the entirety of his skepticism was put off as Konami did no wrong with BLS/etc., so the main point stands.

 

 

Well, considering he helped me make a custom deck, helped me get on this site, and sitting right next to me at this second... I think I do. And yes, he does 'demonize' people who play competitively... but that doesn't mean every post made by him is doing that.

 

Context matters.

Wow, he helped one poster. As if Klav never did that. Or Crab. List goes on.

 

And don't put demonize in quotes. It was YOUR word used against you, not the other way around, so don't act like I'm using strong language.

 

Almost every post is, including both of his posts in that thread, so your point is really moot. You can think he's Jesus or whatever you choose to believe, but the fact remains that he does post stuff like that more than not, and regardless of your relation to him, you can't sweep that away.

 

 

And yet we're having this conversation right now about competitive vs. casual.

Because YCM is one of many sets of people that use casual as a shield for poor decisions? It has nothing to do with people putting the metagame into it, it has everything to do with people defending their poor decisions with it.

 

 

Not in the BB thread, but this might be true in others. And this also is not right, but once again, it goes both ways.

... yes it was

 

not harshly, but it was definitely scorned. Someone actually called out VCR Cat's skepticism later, by name, so it happened. WAs it harsh? No, but it did happen.

 

 

Then, honestly, you need to make your intents clearly, because it seems like you are attacking them.

or maybe you're a bit overly sensitive

 

 

No, they believed that was good, and they posted it. You came along and in your first post you didn't offer any advice. That is an attack. http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/340440-everyone-loves-kogarasho-bujinsworn-clownblade-pendulum-otk/?p=6706068

Like this. Really?

 

You call me an SJW while glossing over technically worse stuff that happened, because it aided your point, and you call that an attack? I pointed out that he posted a deck he (as far as any poster knew) knew very little, if anything, about. It was simply advertise for someone, and misusing the section.

 

If that's an attack, as well as all the other 'attacks' you've pointed out, you need to look in a mirror before you call other people anything.

 

 

Then please, tell me what your definition of 'substance' is. There seems to be a discrepancy as to what qualifies as substance from one user to the next.

An idea that feasibly works.

 

Hade-Hane in Shaddoll is a terrible idea, because it's slow as balls, has an unwieldy level, an effect that may ctually just be terrible against some decks, and it lacks a good name. Unlike Shaddoll Beast, which offers you tons of value for setting it over a fusion, it offers you nothing.

 

Hane-Hane would be a better one, but it suffers from most of the same issues. However, at least in theory, an argument can be made for using it as a bluff... And it even has a potential edge on Penguin Soldier, due to attribute, though Penguin Soldier would still be better.

 

Is it good? No, but it's not the least logical idea people have had with a deck that allows you lots of flexibility.

 

Now, let's try another deck, hm? Clownblade.

 

Recommending Abare Ushi-Oni: Bad. It works with the worst card in the deck alone, is inconsistent, and doesn't actually help you.

Recommending Juragedo (it wasn't staple, once upon a time): Very good. It gives you extra ATK for OTKs, it's Level 4, it self-summons, and it pays you back for what Trick Clown takes.

Recommending Wonder Wand: Neutral. It's neither bad nor good, but it's an acceptable tech @1-2, because the ease of summoning Mages is just so funking easy. And +500 on Trapeze is silly.

 

And there are things that are weighed by common sense. That's what it boils down to. People didn't like the Juragedo idea much at first, but people around here thought the Wonder Wand tech was a great idea. This changed with testing, but it's still there.

 

Back Jack was recommended in Shaddoll, and iHop hated it, but it turned out to make an entire OCG variant, albeit partially due to the death of Construct.

 

Oh, let's go super casual with it.

 

Fableds.

 

Recommending a card in Fableds because it discards: Stupid, especially considering how few cards actively desire to be discarded (average: 6-8). The Cheerful Coffin and Guarded Treasure are just bad, yet people use them.

Recommending a card because it has synergy, sometimes through a discard: Good, because it aids the deck. Like Valerifawn.

 

Common sense and basic understanding are all you need.

 

I'm out, though. There's no point to this. VCR cat tidied up, anyways.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I just get bothered when casual players imply they are better sheerly because they are casual. Ultimately everyone is allowed to play their own way, but these forums are geared toward looking at cards in how powerful they are. Otherwise there would be comments everywhere saying "guys, this is searchable by single purchase and dogu!".

 

I only read the first page, but if this ended up devolving into what I have seen in Skype chats, sorry for potentially feeding the flame.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Not particularly, when people just throw up casual as an excuse. In addition, you asked why you needed to improve, but then said improvement happens. Doesn't exactly make sense.

 

It makes everyone appreciate and enjoy it more. The more into something you get, the more those go up. That's common sense.

 

Improvement doesn't come from a 'lot of ways'. It comes from understanding gamestates and counterpicks, how to side deck, how to construct a deck (see the former two), and how to properly play that deck.

 

For example, I can't play Nekroz for s***. I haven't put any practice into it. Time is what makes you improve. And posting "CASUAL!" when someone tries to help you understand one of the former is a complete and utter lack of progress, in sections that are naturally set to helping progression, regardless of the amount of success.

 

But it still can happen. And yeah, it makes perfect sense. I don't think you need to improve, I don't think improvement is necessary in many cases, but it still happens.

 

No, not everyone. You can get into something/enjoy it without being good at it or improving.

 

It doesn't come from a lot of ways yet you listed several ways it comes from.

 

I'm unsure why you keep arguing about how it's bad to get upset/just scream casual, to me, when I kept saying that I agree with that aspect.

[Tinkerer]

Hm!  I for one feel as though I took away some really interesting points from both sides.  Here are a few takeaways.

 

1. General improvement: I have to agree with Black that it is a given.  Even if one plays without the intention of getting better, by virtue of playing, they are improving.  It might not be the most efficient method of improvement, but it does happen.
2. No one likes people using "Casual" as an excuse: Ok, this has been brought up a few times, and probably my biggest takeaway.  Looking at it from a competitive mindset, I do understand it.  It would get to be extremely grating, especially if those players also continuously complain about losing (more on this below).
3. Empathy: VCR Cat said it best.  There is definitely a need to approach helping/being helped in a new way.  Understanding that there are some legit divides and respect them is key.
4. Open mind: As it's been said before, neither mindset is right or wrong.  There is no right or wrong way to play.  Keeping this in mind might help make the community better as a whole.

In regards to a few other things:

 

I personally enjoy showcasing/looking at showcased decks.  It is much like posting your own card.  Sometimes you feel like garnering improvements for your card and other times you simply want to show the card off to others and see what they think.  Personally, I feel like the deck section could/should be taken similarly.  Of course, there is always people who critique and suggest things, and that should be fine; if you desire to improve your deck, you can take their suggestions (or at least understand why they suggest one thing over another).

 

People who say that they are casual yet complain about the meta decks constantly beating their deck are confused.  They have a competitive mindset and (as much as I hate bashing on others), it is completely their fault.  They need to recognize where their mindset is and, from there, figure out what is most satisfying for them.  In a similar way, this works the other way around.  A person with a casual mindset might be spurred to use competitive decks.  They do ok, but they might not have learned much which brings in those "good deck, bad player" scenarios.  They also might not be fully satisfied, even with lots of wins, because it is not what they see as fun.

 

As for improvement (yes, I know I'm really deviating now), it is in the same boat as learning things in class.  Some people only need to hear the material once, some need to write notes and study them, some need to use analogies that they understand, etc.  In a similar way, to improve in Yugioh, some ways are more effective than others.  Some people see instant value in suggested cards and can quickly figure out how they apply while others might need to undergo trial and error through dueling and understanding why something may not work well (also, they gain experience with the deck, which, as Black said, is important to improvement).

 

If anyone has anything else to add please do, just make sure to keep it civil.  I will lock this topic tomorrow.

[King K. Azo]

I'm out, though. There's no point to this. 

Agreed. I hope we don't argue like this in the future, and hopefully, we can help each other improve.

[Dementuo]

But it still can happen. And yeah, it makes perfect sense. I don't think you need to improve, I don't think improvement is necessary in many cases, but it still happens.

 

No, not everyone. You can get into something/enjoy it without being good at it or improving.

 

It doesn't come from a lot of ways yet you listed several ways it comes from.

 

I'm unsure why you keep arguing about how it's bad to get upset/just scream casual, to me, when I kept saying that I agree with that aspect.

the point i think both black and myself are most confused by is why you're saying improvement doesn't need to happen

like

if you don't want to improve at the game, why are you posting decks in the deck section? if you post a deck in the deck section, it's expected that you're posting the deck in order to get help from other members of the site, not to showcase the deck and just say "look what i made". that's what the status bar is for.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

the point i think both black and myself are most confused by is why you're saying improvement doesn't need to happen

like

if you don't want to improve at the game, why are you posting decks in the deck section? if you post a deck in the deck section, it's expected that you're posting the deck in order to get help from other members of the site, not to showcase the deck and just say "look what i made". that's what the status bar is for.

Because you might want to figure out a way to make the deck work better, the way you want it to be made. Like as I said earlier. MtG Ox deck. If I were to post it I'd be asking what non-creatures to add despite the fact the creatures are why it's a not good deck.

Basically, you might not want to get good at the game but still want to make the idea you had work. Not even necessarily work the best way it could, but just work better in a way that retains what you want from the deck.

Um. Does that make more sense?

 

Course once again getting upset when people call you out for having a not well done deck is bad always.

Also I think a major problem is both casual and competitive sides can get automatically defensive when the other side says anything seeming negative.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Basically, you might not want to get good at the game but still want to make the idea you had work. Not even necessarily work the best way it could, but just work better in a way that retains what you want from the deck.

Um. Does that make more sense?

 

That's the point though.That's what been called as optimization.

 

That's the point of suggestions and such.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

That's the point though.That's what been called as optimization.

 

That's the point of suggestions and such.

Hmm. Well, I guess the idea I mean is more uhh...Optimization doesn't need to be the most optimization possible? And that it's okay not to take some suggestions.

Which is what my thought on the difference of competitive and casual is.

Competitive means making as optimized as possible.

Casual means making as optimized as you feel like.

 

I mean I don't really disagree with what Black and you and such have been saying.

[Simping For Hina]

Yes, it is okay to not take suggestions if you know why you're not going to take those suggestions. Otherwise, you're just blowing off someone without any real reason.

 

You're not understanding what optimization means. It means to get better. And the means to do that are by getting rid of what is bad and putting in what is good. If you're not willing to accept that, and work on your deck, then leave it to yourself or talk to people about how to make it more fun, not better.

 

Casual isn't that, though. It is about doing what you like how you like it, and having only the restrictions of what you want being the perimeter of what you're making.

 

In casual, you can do what ever you want. But that means that you shouldn't post in the Deck Section as that forum is specifically meant to help to make your deck better in terms of consistency, competitiveness, and all around better; not lollygag around everything.

 

There is no real means to edit a deck that is made with a casual mind frame other than, "Try this, it might be good".

 

It is a waste of time for people to try to help if you blow off their suggestions because you don't like them or simply because you're not willing to give them a shot. Give reasons in terms of the game state and playing the game that would validate and support your opinion; Don't just give your opinion.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Yes, it is okay to not take suggestions if you know why you're not going to take those suggestions. Otherwise, you're just blowing off someone without any real reason.

 

You're not understanding what optimization means. It means to get better. And the means to do that are by getting rid of what is bad and putting in what is good. If you're not willing to accept that, and work on your deck, then leave it to yourself or talk to people about how to make it more fun, not better.

 

Casual isn't that, though. It is about doing what you like how you like it, and having only the restrictions of what you want being the perimeter of what you're making.

 

In casual, you can do what ever you want. But that means that you shouldn't post in the Deck Section as that forum is specifically meant to help to make your deck better in terms of consistency, competitiveness, and all around better; not lollygag around everything.

 

There is no real means to edit a deck that is made with a casual mind frame other than, "Try this, it might be good".

 

It is a waste of time for people to try to help if you blow off their suggestions because you don't like them or simply because you're not willing to give them a shot. Give reasons in terms of the game state and playing the game that would validate and support your opinion; Don't just give your opinion.

Yeah that's true, and that's what I was saying.

 

I understand what optimization means and that doesn't change anything I said. "Optimization doesn't need to be the most optimization possible" You don't need to fully optimize to still get advice and have some optimization.

 

And I don't see how that's much different in what I said casual was.

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. You can put it in and take some suggestions while still keeping certain things in the deck. I don't understand why you think it has to be "best possible or bust"

And I merely said you can choose not to take certain suggestions and that's your right, doesn't mean you can't ask for suggestions. You're allowed to choose what suggestions you want to take.

Wait are you telling me to give examples (besides the Ox one I already mentioned) even though you're just giving your opinion?

Not to mention why can't I just give my opinion, that's what's being asked for, what I think about it.

 

Honestly I'm not sure what your point is here and if you even understand what I'm trying to say :T

[The Warden]

Optimization to me means refined, sharpened. It's okay to have a theme, but if you want it to function most optimally some fat needs to be cut. Winning and fun are perfectly capable of going hand in hand, and it doesn't require you to run derp choices to accomplish that. I myself try to create fun decks, but also try to see how well I can improve and streamline the deck to ensure it's functional and capable of victory. As it goes, the point of a game is to win. The objective, however, is to have fun.

[Just Crouton]

I don't understand why someone wouldn't care about winning or losing.

 

Card games are expensive. Why would you invest a chunk of money into cards with the intent to play if you don't care about winning? Kind of a waste of your money and the time of whoever you play against.

 

And, if you're using Dueling Network exclusively, you have every card in the game at your disposal, so you don't really have much of an excuse or reason to play the bad cards.

 

Creativity's a lazily thrown around word. The only creative decks I've ever heard of in Yugioh are F/OTK decks like Librarian or Spell Chronicle. Everything else is PureArchetype.dek or a 10 card combo that only wins against even worse decks.

[Simping For Hina]

You literally got nothing of what I am saying.

 

I understand what you are saying. To paraphrase: Basically, people have the right to deny and forego people's suggestions while also accepting others. I ask that people give reasons as to why they are denying suggestions, not just do it. Just because it is your "right" to deny doesn't mean that it is right to do so. The reason for the forum is to have the best optimization that fits what people want from their deck for the competitive scene. Ask for suggestions. Take them all into account. Give reasons as to what you don't like out of those suggestions other than because "it is your right to not take them". That fact doesn't help anyone improve. And this forum is meant to help everyone improve, even those that are giving the suggestions. It is called peer mediation. And it a tool for everyone to get a better understanding, not just the person who posted the deck. I ask that you validate your opinion, in terms of the suggestions given for the deck posted, not here. This is an argument of semantics, not deck development. "Some" optimization is literally a joke for the purpose of this forum because you're not getting better, you're preventing yourself from getting better. And limits that strain of straight progression. It stops defining growth as straight progression, making it abstract, which is not proper for any established statement of growth.

Do you know what TCG and OCG means here? It means competitive. And that means to have the best deck you can have, not a deck that sheds a few things here and there because you decided that you weren't going to take the suggestions because it is your "right". Casual has no purpose if it isn't going to try to have the best deck possible to win a tournament or to have the best list in the archetype for a metagame. Now, there is nothing wrong with casual, but it doesn't help the purpose of what people want to do. And it wastes other people's time if you don't have a discussion of the suggestions that are denied or accepted. Growth is stunted because people decide not to grow, and that is what I am getting at. Sure, you can decide to not accept suggestions because it is your "right" but also know that you are not going to be given suggestions if you're not willing to start a conversation about what you do not accept.

 

So, get better or don't post a deck. Talk about what suggestions that are talked about because that is the right thing to do, not because it is your right to accept or deny. Conversations are what make people better. Not "pass" or "approve" mindframes. Optimization should be 100% for everyone involved, not just the deck creator. And that means that you discuss everything suggestion that you do not accept, because it is better for every player involved. This is a funking community, not a shitty solo member that can't talk through his or her decisions. If you just do things because you have the "right" to do things, get the funk out of here because you're nothing more than a blockade for a community of people that strive to get better in the best possible way. 

 

Semantics aside, make deck development a science. Prove everything. And test everything. Give reasons/observations/statements. Go through the entire Scientific Method with everyone involved. That is how you get better as a player and as a person. If you're not willing to do that, you're stopping other people from getting better as well and that is pretty much the equivalent on shitting on someone's masterpiece. It funking ruins it.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I don't understand why someone wouldn't care about winning or losing.

 

Card games are expensive. Why would you invest a chunk of money into cards with the intent to play if you don't care about winning? Kind of a waste of your money and the time of whoever you play against.

 

And, if you're using Dueling Network exclusively, you have every card in the game at your disposal, so you don't really have much of an excuse or reason to play the bad cards.

 

Creativity's a lazily thrown around word. The only creative decks I've ever heard of in Yugioh are F/OTK decks like Librarian or Spell Chronicle. Everything else is PureArchetype.dek or a 10 card combo that only wins against even worse decks.

Because it's fun to some people to play even if they lose. Like me.

 

And Dae maybe I didn't get what you were saying cause of your wording XP

Honestly I don't understand what the obsession with the forum being for people to improve and getting better is. There's nothing wrong with staying around the same level and enjoying the game.

I mean I never said that it was good or bad to not explain why you aren't taking a suggestion, only that it's fine not to take some suggestions. I think it's wrong to assume people have to take a suggestion just because someone gave it. Sure it's good to explain why you didn't take a suggestion, that's understandable. But sometimes people want to keep a certain idea, while still making certain parts of their decks better if possible.

 

"This is a funking community, not a shitty solo member that can't talk through his or her decisions. If you just do things because you have the "right" to do things, get the funk out of here because you're nothing more than a blockade for a community of people that strive to get better in the best possible way."

This shows to me you may have took something really wrong in what was said here.

I never said that at all.

 

I reiterate.

You can take some suggestions, and not others, yes you should explain why you're not but those reasons might not be competitive.

Again back to the Ox deck, you'd understand that example. Oxes are bad creatures for the most part and I made a deck with them. Now, if I were to post it in decks I'd be asking for what other non-creatures could be put into it.

It's clearly not the best possible but it's still asking for suggestions about the deck and making it better in a way that's not getting rid of the core reason I created the deck.

[Simping For Hina]

Nevermind. It isn't worth it.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Nevermind. It isn't worth it.

Then why make this post...? I mean it's not like I'm not willing to discuss things just cause we don't agree.

Nothing I said at all this whole time was meant to tell anyone they're totally wrong or shouldn't say their opinion.

[Just Crouton]

Because it's fun to some people to play even if they lose. Like me.

 

 

I get that some games are great even if you lost them, but I don't get the attitude that players shouldn't care about winning or losing.

 

Why would you not analyze your misplays and card choices, and make changes to the deck to make it win more?

 

It sounds like general laziness, and a lack of enthusiasm in the game.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I get that some games are great even if you lost them, but I don't get the attitude that players shouldn't care about winning or losing.

 

Why would you not analyze your misplays and card choices, and make changes to the deck to make it win more?

 

It sounds like general laziness, and a lack of enthusiasm in the game.

Well I think the difference between what I'm saying and that is that's a bit..extreme. I mean if I see a huge flaw in (sorry for the not YGO example) my Pokemon team I go "Okay well maybe I should use this move instead of this one". Basically putting in some effort to improve the general thing is fine but it's also okay to keep some things that you put in because of personal preference/nostalgia/amusement etc. As long as, as Dae had mentioned, if you ask for help you make sure people understand that's the case.

 

It's not necessarily not caring about winning or losing, it's being fine with losing. I think so at least.

 

And misplays is a different matter, you can get better at not misplaying without being super competitive after all. .

I've always found it odd the term "laziness" coupled with a game. ^^: Unless of course tournament setting.

[Sleepy]

Sooo much to read. Please keep in mind I am stuck in the middle of reading post #3 of the thread at the time of writing so forgive me if I repeat something.

 

 

You are facing a ton of things here to describe. You can't really narrow down casual since casual is everything that is not competitive. It is competitive that is more clear in regards to what it is meant to be.

 

The thought of not caring about winning or losing is no good to describe it all. While to some cases it might be true, I personally more often build what you'd call casual decks like Mokey Mokey or Blue-Eyes, but despite it being a non-optimal theme on itself, I still try to give it the best possible build I can without having other things steal the spotlight/intended purpose, and I always try to give it my best when playing AKA I try to win. 

 

I've seen people using the most optimal of decks of the time or even traditional decks in a very passive way just to play around as they watch opponents suffer in despair without actually winning on several chances: That is fine among friends too, but it is a different thing and I'd say the opposite of my above point.

 

Some people also like role-playing into acting up characters from the show(s).... casuals have many faces.

 

Of course there was a thread with a similar topic I don't remember exactly where but not too long ago, and it expressed there that there isn't an exact line dividing them, but somewhere in between the "rogues that could still go up against competitive but not count as such" it really mixes up into that gray area. I guess it isn't what you are looking for with this thread but it was still worth noting I think.

 

 

On a last note:

If you are not trying to build a deck well at all and are not trying to aim to win at all during the duel either, you might as well not be playing IMO, but if that makes you happy, then casuals really have no solid rules because they are everything that is not competitive and then some in the blurry area.

[ihop]

disclaimer: I didn't properly read the majority of posts in this thread like wow that's a lot of writing

 

Although I'm probably the most competitive yugioh player on the site I'm actually a lot more tolerant of this casual mindset than other people here seem to be. I don't think optimisation is necessary because it's pretty clear that winning is not necessary for some people and the fun of the game is enough for people. I don't think striving to get better is a prerequisite of the game and it's quite possible to enjoy all kinds of things in life without needing to get much better at it. Whilst I agree decks that don't try to be optimal don't belong in the Decks section here, because the purpose of that section is mainly to improve and optimise decks that are posted, I really don't have a problem with people not trying to optimise their deck if they don't want to - after all, Yugioh is an amazing game and everyone should be free to enjoy it the way they want to.

 

What I do have a problem with is casual players totally demonising the competitive scene, refusing to have anything to do with it and thinking they're above everyone who's a part of it. We get it, you enjoy the casual aspect of the game but you're not the only people playing this game and different ways to enjoy it. I take particular exception to people saying "casual is more fun" or "casual is fun, meta is competitive" because it implies competitive players don't have fun. Like, do you think I'm doing it for the money or something? People need to understand that people have different ideas of the concept of fun, and just because something doesn't look like fun to you doesn't mean it isn't to others. I assure I have just as much fun and enjoyment playing a Shaddoll mirror match as a casual player does playing with Vampires against Morphtronics. The only difference is the power level.