Number S39: Utopia the Lightning

[evilfusion]

You mean that thing EVERY Rank 4 Deck worth its salt can already do?

 

That's his point. The Rank 4 spam Decks make it easy to multiple-Xyz. But the majority of the Xyz don't push for game. They need to be supported by other Rank 4s or other cards to break the opponent down.

 

Making too many generic and powerful Rank 4s will upset the delicate balance of how easy it is to bring out Rank 4s and how easily you can win after doing so.

[CLG Klavier]

You mean that thing EVERY Rank 4 Deck worth its salt can already do?

Yeah, but back in the day, a single Xyz was enough. But nowadays, they got powercrept out so bad that you need numbers, not quality.

 

I don't understand this whole idea that being reactive makes a card weak or bad. If you're not using your stuff to respond to what your opponent is doing, then what are you doing? What generic synchro/fusion/ritual/anything is there that doesn't care what your opponent has and can be splashed wherever whenever? I mean I may be missing the point on this but I don't get that argument. If you have a deck that can always react to what your opponent does, why is that a weakness?

Advancing your gameplan?

 

There is a reason why cards are divided into reactive and proactive cards. Proactive cards are usually "better", because pushing your game closer towards victory is more beneficial to you then dragging your opponent off their win. Also multiples of them? If it goes for Synchros, Stardust, Stardust Spark, Black Rose Moonlight, so mostly the newer ones, but still. Xyzs, Dante, Gear Gigant, cards that do things no matter what your opponent has. It doesn't matter they can Veiler it or whatever. It matters that the card you just summoned does a thing for you, rather than cockblocking the opponent.

[ENMaker]

Yeah, but back in the day, a single Xyz was enough. But nowadays, they got powercrept out so bad that you need numbers, not quality.

 

Advancing your gameplan?

 

There is a reason why cards are divided into reactive and proactive cards. Proactive cards are usually "better", because pushing your game closer towards victory is more beneficial to you then dragging your opponent off their win. Also multiples of them? If it goes for Synchros, Stardust, Stardust Spark, Black Rose Moonlight, so mostly the newer ones, but still. Xyzs, Dante, Gear Gigant, cards that do things no matter what your opponent has. It doesn't matter they can Veiler it or whatever. It matters that the card you just summoned does a thing for you, rather than cockblocking the opponent.

 

 

Most of the ones that advance you are not generic which is why I don't think it's a particularly fair point. Dante and Gear Gigant aren't generic which was apparently important previously in this discussion. The likes of Force Strix, King of the Feral Imps, Minerva, while having generic materials can only be used effectively in certain decks, and within those decks they are enormously helpful. How can you consider Black Rose Moonlight proactive and Triverr or Castel not? Stardust is proactive by having no effects other than responding to one specific kind of effect activated by your opponent? Stardust literally just sits there and does nothing bar, as you put it, cockblocking the opponent. Yes Moonlight bounces a card but so can Castel and Triverr bounces everything.

 

I do now realise that this post responds a bit more specifically to what you said here than the topic in general but hopefully my broader feelings are still clear from it.

[CLG Klavier]

Most of the ones that advance you are not generic which is why I don't think it's a particularly fair point. Dante and Gear Gigant aren't generic which was apparently important previously in this discussion. The likes of Force Strix, King of the Feral Imps, Minerva, while having generic materials can only be used effectively in certain decks, and within those decks they are enormously helpful. How can you consider Black Rose Moonlight proactive and Triverr or Castel not? Stardust is proactive by having no effects other than responding to one specific kind of effect activated by your opponent? Stardust literally just sits there and does nothing bar, as you put it, cockblocking the opponent. Yes Moonlight bounces a card but so can Castel and Triverr bounces everything.

Dante is generic actually. So is Minerva.

 

I consider Black Rose Moonlight proactive, because, if you read the card, it procs on your opponent summoning a level 5 monster. So the moment they summon one, it triggers. It sits there and is all like "ey, funker, summon something, I DARE you". Triverr bounces things that already exist on the field, so during your opponent's turn, Triverr is just a 2100 body. Same with Castel. A naked Castel turn 1 will just die and do nothing.

 

Stardust is proactive because it's a big monster that is very hard to get rid of with removal, or with battle, in case of Stardust Spark.

 

You really don't get it, don't you?

[ENMaker]

Dante is generic actually. So is Minerva.

 

I consider Black Rose Moonlight proactive, because, if you read the card, it procs on your opponent summoning a level 5 monster. So the moment they summon one, it triggers. It sits there and is all like "ey, f***er, summon something, I DARE you". Triverr bounces things that already exist on the field, so during your opponent's turn, Triverr is just a 2100 body. Same with Castel. A naked Castel turn 1 will just die and do nothing.

 

Stardust is proactive because it's a big monster that is very hard to get rid of with removal, or with battle, in case of Stardust Spark.

 

You really don't get it, don't you?

 

They can all be 101'd.

[CLG Klavier]

They can all be 101'd.

...okay? What kind of answer is this?

 

And yet, Moonlight restricts your opponent's game in some way. Stardust is problematic to get rid of.

 

Meanwhile Castel and Triverr can be ran over by a friggin Goblin Attack Force, doing nothing in proccess.

 

Proactive card = a card you can play that puts pressure on your opponent

Reactive card = a card that relieves pressure off you

[ENMaker]

...okay? What kind of answer is this?

 

And yet, Moonlight restricts your opponent's game in some way. Stardust is problematic to get rid of.

 

Meanwhile Castel and Triverr can be ran over by a friggin Goblin Attack Force, doing nothing in proccess.

 

Proactive card = a card you can play that puts pressure on your opponent

Reactive card = a card that relieves pressure off you

 

It's an answer responding to the points about Stardust and Spark being awkward to remove, and Moonlight having nothing it can do against rank 4 decks anyway. 101 both removes a monster and can, often, subsequently attack directly. Now your opponent is down a monster which, if a synchro, required at least a 2 card investment, and they also have to effectively kill 101 twice before it will go away. If that isn't proactive what is.

[CLG Klavier]

It's an answer responding to the points about Stardust and Spark being awkward to remove, and Moonlight having nothing it can do against rank 4 decks anyway. 101 both removes a monster and can, often, subsequently attack directly. Now your opponent is down a monster which, if a synchro, required at least a 2 card investment, and they also have to effectively kill 101 twice before it will go away. If that isn't proactive what is.

I said "awkward" to remove. Not impossible to remove. Christ.

 

But Moonlight does things against NON Xyz decks. Kozmos? Shaddolls? D/D/D? Hi, we're all here and our boss monsters are actually high-leveled.

 

BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT IF YOUR OPPONENT DOESN'T HAVE A BOSS. YOU GET IT?

 

You can drop Moonlight independently. Stardust Spark. Rafflesia. Lavalval Chain. Dante. You can drop them all no matter what.

 

But what if your opponent normal summons Deneb? You're gonna drop your beloved 101 as well, even though it doesn't do sheet and next turn dies to another copy of itself, or a Castel, or whatever? That's why 101 isn't a PROACTIVE card. Because it's only good in SPECIFIC SITUATIONS and otherwise DOESN'T DO sheet. Also your 101 involves a 2-card investment as well, just saying.

 

And yes, I'm aware it has battle/effect immunity, like Spark does, which I am using as an example. Spark however has bigger stats and doesn't get ran over by half monsters in this game.

 

And to reinforce my earlier point:

 

There are following rank 4 Xyzs in TCG that advance your game, means they search/draw cards or summon things:

Brotherhood of the Fire Fist - Tiger King

Bujintei Susanowo

Bujintei Tsukuyomi

Evilswarm Ophion

Gear Gigant X

King of Feral Imps

 

I guess you can also make a case for Minerva because she WILL be in TCG, though as a prize card. Ptoalemaeus is also a kind-of proactive card since you can just make it turn 1, attach Delteros at end phase and rank it up as soon as opponent's turn comes. Noticing the pattern in the list though? None are generic.

 

Meanwhile OCG has:

Lavalval Chain

Minerva, the Exalted Lightsworn

Traptrix Rafflesia

 

They still have Chain, which is the most broken rank 4 in the game, and they recently got Rafflesia. And yes, I am aware that Rafflesia is an "answer card" too, but it's an answer card that works during your opponent's turn, is very resilient and tanky in stats, so making her T1 is completly alright because chance is she'll stick on the field, unlike Castel or Dweller.

 

Then there are answer Rank 4s like Castel and Exciton, and follow-ups like Trapeze Magician (technically a proactive card, but one that needs earlier setup).

 

OCG has rank 4s from all 3 categories. Proactive, reactive, follow-up. We don't have proactive ones.

 

You know why people always say TCG plays not to lose, while OCG plays to win? Partially because of this. TCG lacks offensive options.

[ENMaker]

Making 101 is not awkward, therefore removing those cards is not awkward, but you just don't want to agree with that. If you can actually attack things, Dark Rebellion works. Dweller doesn't need to stay on the field since once his effect is activated he does nothing for the remainder of the turn anyway. If I am able to summon 101, or Castel, or DRXD, and clear your board or remove your one monster or eliminate your threats, there isn't going to be a next turn to worry about since rank 4 decks that can spam materials have no reason to actually make rank 4s if the field is clear and they can just all swing at you and make a Cowboy if it's not quite enough. If you're invested enough, even Exciton and waiting a turn can end a game.

 

I mean it has been said already, but the fact that any monster at all + Kagetokage isn't instantly game doesn't mean the cards are bad or weak or less useful. Rank 4s are easy to make and it's completely possible to make several in a turn, so if they were on top of that strong enough to win games on their own simply by their presence no other cards would see play ever. Yes they may be reactionary but they are reactionary to situations that will occur in 95% of duels, and if you can always answer what your opponent does you will probably win.

[CLG Klavier]

I give up and rest my case. I literally don't have mental health to argue on this topic.

[Sander]

I give up and rest my case. I literally don't have mental health to argue on this topic.

 

And here we go again, Klav thinking he is SO smart that anything that doesn't fit with his opinion is harmful to his mental health. Get over yourself.

[Spinny]

And here we go again, Klav thinking he is SO smart that anything that doesn't fit with his opinion is harmful to his mental health. Get over yourself.

LOL. Klav has a point, and I can understand both sides tbh and why you would think about it in certain ways like this. Don't just try to openly degrade someone when they are actually discussing something interesting for a change.

 

> just to make this not spam like the above post:

Tbh I think klav actually has a point with the whole reactive proactive thing. Alot of r4s are reactive now (the best ones anyway). BUT, I don't think I would like more proactive ones. R4 is very accessible and having alot of proactive xyzs will not be great IMO.

[CLG Klavier]

And here we go again, Klav thinking he is SO smart that anything that doesn't fit with his opinion is harmful to his mental health. Get over yourself.

I didn't say a single funking thing of the sort you inept dumbass. Do you post in those threads only to flame? Then I'll flame you the funk back.

 

I simply said I have no more funking will to argue on this topic because it's clear me and Enguin have different stances and neither of us will change it. So you can KINDLY shut the funk up.

[Toffee.]

ITT: We need a bigger Extra Deck

[Spinny]

ITT: We need a bigger Extra Deck

Tbh I actually don't think it would do much, we just went through how most r4s are just reactive toolbox things that only see play like once a duel soooo.....

[Maeriberii Haan]

Ptolemaeus-Pleiades/Diamond in some cases is probably the best proactive opening play R4 decks in TCG have. Dweller against decks where it's effective can count too.

 

With a lack of good innate opening play available since the loss of Chain, dedicated R4 decks in general becomes worse unless they have other openings that either sets them up or put pressure on your opponent. As a toolbox R4 is still the best of the bunch, but that's pretty much it.

 

Man, I'm late to the discussion.

[ihop]

Bit of a bump, but I've actually had a think about this and tbh I disagree with the points made here. Realistically, although rank 4 lacks generic proactive cards any deck that actually relies on rank 4s to advance its gamestate and summons sufficient level 4s that it doesn't mind losing will have its own specific rank 4s which DO advance its gamestate and can be considered proactive - Nekroz have Emeral, Tellarknights have Triverr (and yes, Triverr is proactive. It lets you reuse continuous cards as well as taking cards from the opponent's hand without them needing to make any sort of commitment to anything), Performages have Trapeze Magician which is relatively proactive, etc.

 

The only decks that don't have a proactive rank 4 are decks that really have no business going for a rank 4 anyway unless they are in a pinch and need an answer to something - decks like Shaddoll, Ritual Beast and Yosenju require large commitment and do not always find it easy to make a rank 4, and thus would only rank 4 in situations where they absolutely have to anyway, and since the vast majority of situations where you absolutely have to rank 4 are caused by your opponent having a card only a rank 4 can get round (double Dante for Dweller, a floodgate for Castel, etc) those sort of decks only need reactive cards since any generic proactive card good enough to make such a deck want to lose so much advantage for it would have to be ridiculously good, which would then cause issues in decks that can make a rank 4 really easily.

 

I really don't see the rank 4 as "weak" since it fulfils any function a deck with any sort of access to rank 4s needs - decks which rely on rank 4s and regularly rank 4 will have specific cards which DO advance their gamestate, and decks which stand to lose a lot by going for a rank 4 have a plethora of reactive options which mean that they can, in a pinch, work their way out of situations that their normal array of cards would not be able to deal with.

[Dog King]

Name me a single rank 4 in the game you can make as your opening game play that can threaten an opponent.

Giant Hand

:)