Force of Will

[Simping For Hina]

I really just want Modern to have this card.

 

 

[Flame Dragon]

Pretty sure this is WAY too good for Modern. Yes, it will stop stuff like Bloom but, IMO, Bloom should have been banned today.

[Simping For Hina]

It is sheet in fair matches. It is also a hedge against Ad Nauseum, Grishoalbrand, Storm, etc. From my testing, I think that this is simply the card Modern needs for Blue to have power and allow fairer decks to compete against others without the help of Black.

[Flame Dragon]

It is sheet in fair matches. It is also a hedge against Ad Nauseum, Grishoalbrand, Storm, etc. From my testing, I think that this is simply the card Modern needs for Blue to have power and allow fairer decks to compete against others without the help of Black.

But like, none of the fairer decks currently even run Blue, and I don't think giving Twin this is wise.

[Simping For Hina]

But like, none of the fairer decks currently even run Blue, and I don't think giving Twin this is wise.

That's because fair decks can't run blue without running Black, practically. There is no way to be reactive in the format, and that is something the does need to occur. Twin having it wouldn't be a problem. That is like saying that having Dig Through Time back would help Twin, where it would help Scapeshift more than anything. Force of Will will change the dynamics of the format for a bit until it settled, and each deck would have to operate on the same tangent that they do with proactive answers.

[Flame Dragon]

That's because fair decks can't run blue without running Black, practically. There is no way to be reactive in the format, and that is something the does need to occur. Twin having it wouldn't be a problem. That is like saying that having Dig Through Time back would help Twin, where it would help Scapeshift more than anything. Force of Will will change the dynamics of the format for a bit until it settled, and each deck would have to operate on the same tangent that they do with proactive answers.

I don't think adding Force will cause the fair decks to switch to Blue though. In order to play Force you need to be very Blue and I don't think it will be a strong incentive to get them there.

 

Aren't UBR control doing well right now? And I'd certainly call Twin a deck that can easily be built to be reactive.

[Simping For Hina]

I don't think adding Force will cause the fair decks to switch to Blue though. In order to play Force you need to be very Blue and I don't think it will be a strong incentive to get them there.

 

Aren't UBR control doing well right now? And I'd certainly call Twin a deck that can easily be built to be reactive.

Grixis Control decks are nothing but reactive, and I have little incentive to call them control decks. They are pretty much Midrange Decks. Twin isn't a fair deck, though. It is a deck that plays fair behind the threat of a combo.

 

It wouldn't cause fair decks to switch to Blue, it would open up for Blue fair decks to be played.

[Flame Dragon]

Grixis Control decks are nothing but reactive, and I have little incentive to call them control decks. They are pretty much Midrange Decks. Twin isn't a fair deck, though. It is a deck that plays fair behind the threat of a combo.

 

It wouldn't cause fair decks to switch to Blue, it would open up for Blue fair decks to be played.

What exactly do you define as control then? Twin would still be playing Force if it was legal. As would many of the unfair blue decks.

 

Like Merfolk? Its tier 2, sure, but it would certainly count.

[Simping For Hina]

What exactly do you define as control then? Twin would still be playing Force if it was legal. As would many of the unfair blue decks.

 

Like Merfolk? Its tier 2, sure, but it would certainly count.

I never said Twin wouldn't. It is as mentioned that sometimes the best tool to fight combo is also the best tool to defend combo. It would push Merfolk to a higher Tier or at least be played even more, increasing in the percentage of it. I don't see any of this to be an issue, though.

 

There is enough discussion of the heart of control here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/613576-control-player-wrong-format

 

But Grixis is proactive, forcing the opponent to do something where they are in a position to use up resources before having the capability of stabilize or get an advantage. Control isn't about forcing players to waste recourses, but answering their resources when needed and having means of answering it when the opponent already has an advantage or has stabilized, causing them to lose traction and the control player having the advantage then.

Grixis can play like a control deck, yes, but the frame of the deck isn't such.

[Flame Dragon]

I never said Twin wouldn't. It is as mentioned that sometimes the best tool to fight combo is also the best tool to defend combo. It would push Merfolk to a higher Tier or at least be played even more, increasing in the percentage of it. I don't see any of this to be an issue, though.

 

There is enough discussion of the heart of control here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/613576-control-player-wrong-format

 

But Grixis is proactive, forcing the opponent to do something where they are in a position to use up resources before having the capability of stabilize or get an advantage. Control isn't about forcing players to waste recourses, but answering their resources when needed and having means of answering it when the opponent already has an advantage or has stabilized, causing them to lose traction and the control player having the advantage then.

Grixis can play like a control deck, yes, but the frame of the deck isn't such.

I don't think giving Twin and the like access to Force will end well.

 

And I'd argue Grixis does that. They use Command, counters, Snapcaster, and Bolts to run the opponent out of resources and then beat them to death with a 5/5 or 4/5. The fact that the 5/5 and 4/5 can come down early is simply a result of Modern not really being a format where you can durdle around forever.

 

Also, as a point of note, I'm talking about the lists without Delver, which would certainly be less of a control deck then something like this

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-modern-grixis-control/

 

 

Also, while its likely also tier 2, WU control is still a deck.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I would prefer actual counterspell in modern, tbh.

[bury the year]

I would prefer actual counterspell in modern, tbh.

This. I don't think Counterspell's presence would be too oppressive for Modern. There are already few decent 2 mana counterspells in Modern. (I think the only really good one is Mana Leak? Could be wrong though.)

[Flame Dragon]

This. I don't think Counterspell's presence would be too oppressive for Modern. There are already few decent 2 mana counterspells in Modern. (I think the only really good one is Mana Leak? Could be wrong though.)

Remand also sees a lot of play. IMO I think the thing that might hold Counterspell back is the double blue. It could end up being that because Modern has perfect mana its going to work out fine, but I can see that being an issue.

[Poc]

I honesty don't think modern would use force that much. The only nutty t1-2 combo decks are amulet and goyros vengeance and those decks are pretty fragile already. In any u/r tempo deck I would rather have remand. Force is card disadvantage unless you hard cast it and that's really not what the blue decks want in this format. The other slower combo decks like storm and ad ad naseum can easily be answered with a mana leak or a well timed remand.

 

The only decks I could see playing force are fish and UWx control, and even then I really can't see it being that good in those decks. Modern is a bit too fair of a format for force to be worth playing IMO.

[Simping For Hina]

Okay, there are some many things stated here that are rather not correct.

 

Twin using Force of Will will not be an issue at all. It would hardly use it because it is a loss of tempo, doesn't shell to the fact that the game will end will and Twin already has a good matchup against unfair decks because of the threat of the combo. There is nothing to be scared with here because of the amount to issues that it would provide in the long run since they aren't trying to combo off, and there is no reason to stop other decks from attempting to combo off at all, either. Twin decks have the capability of playing without it due to already presenting itself in both an unfair and fair match up, where Force of Will will be a loss in card value and card quality for them, making it easier to fall then it should be for the deck.

 

As I mentioned, Grixis has the capability of playing a control game because of its resources, but it doesn't have the theme of it. It plays much more like a midrange and tempo game because it forces the opponent to act. The creatures are a testament to that, but also just playing the deck because of how quickly each resource is used to gain an advantage on what the opponent is doing. If the opponent is doing nothing and trying to play around everything, Grixis can just get in to attack. The reason why the deck is strong is because of the ability to shift gears due to their creatures, but it is always going to be about putting pressure on the game with anything. The card quality is stronger here in this shell because the opponent is forced to play around each angle of the deck while also limiting themselves to not being able to do anything. If this deck plays the control route most of the time, it will properly lose. Delver isn't a control deck and I know what you are referring to.

 

Control shouldn't have to durdle around, but should have the ability to be reactive in its own right. It has all of the threats to play, but it has no time to play them. Decks can just often lose even when having answers because of the speed of other decks.

 

Counterspell doesn't stop unfair decks. The problem with decks like Grishoalbrand and Amulet is that, even if they are fringe, the capability of playing them consecutively in a tournament is completely strong. And because they are fringe means that you have more prospects to lose to them more than ever since preparing for these decks would cause you to lose other games against different formats. The need for an answer is actually very disturbing in the meta game because everyone is relying on the Banned and Restricted List to promote answers, which is a very disgusting concern in a format. Answers shouldn't be based on a B&R list, but without cards in the game that are not limiting. Infect is also in here because of how much it can win, and have backup to get around removal.

 

Counterspell is a card that should be in Modern, but it wouldn't change a lot of things. I am not talking about getting oppressive, it would just be a stop-all answer to the fair decks. That is pretty much all that will change.

 

Modern doesn't have perfect mana because the lands do cost life. It has mana with almost no hate granted toward it, but that doesn't mean it is perfect. We can't durdle around with our lands.

 

UWx is tier two because of its ability to just often lose to the faster pace decks. Even with cards that slow the opponent down, it doesn't win. Even with fair answers, the deck doesn't have the means to play against the faster decks, which is why UWR is going more Midrange and Tempo, sometimes even splashing Black for Tasigur.

 

Mana Leak is just a shitty card, anyways.

 

I honesty don't think modern would use force that much. The only nutty t1-2 combo decks are amulet and goyros vengeance and those decks are pretty fragile already. In any u/r tempo deck I would rather have remand. Force is card disadvantage unless you hard cast it and that's really not what the blue decks want in this format. The other slower combo decks like storm and ad ad naseum can easily be answered with a mana leak or a well timed remand.

The only decks I could see playing force are fish and UWx control, and even then I really can't see it being that good in those decks. Modern is a bit too fair of a format for force to be worth playing IMO.

This is an interesting look at the format. The format has enough fair decks and shifts gears enough time. But Ad Nauseum and Storm are so easy to play when trying to play around a single Mana Leak and Remand. They aren't so easily answered, and I don't think I could state why besides the redundancy. If you are not putting them under pressure for the time they are going to go off, then they have enough redundancy to just keep going. That is like saying that Thoughtseize and Inquisition are going to do the same. In theory, that is how it works, but without pressure, they are giving the time to continue up. which is why keeping track of life is so important in these matchups. They aren't stopped easily by a mana leak or remand whatsoever, even if well times, unless they kept a fragile hand.

 

The idea of these decks playing Force is pretty settling, and what I would think is correct. I do believe that Delver would play the card as well, tbh, if you look at Temur Delver playing Disrupting Shoal. It is the same reason why force is played in tempo decks. Tempo doesn't care about card disadvantage if they are gaining an advantage in tempo.

 

A card like Force of Will would be more suiting, maybe not as strong and answer-full, but we do need to have something like this in the format. Counterspell, Mana Leak, and Remand are not the same course to fill this void, but they would help to just have fair answers.

[Poc]

Disrupting shoal is played in rug delver because of it's synergy with goyf and mandrils. Remand is a much better counter for tempo decks otherwise.

 

Another danger of adding a fow like card in the format to stop combo decks is that the combo decks are just going to play that card to protect themselves. Then we have another mental misstep situation and that's not healthy for the format at all.

 

I do agree that looking to the banned list for answers is a really bad idea though. The less cards banned in a format the better IMO.

[Simping For Hina]

Disrupting Shoal is played in RUG Delver because of its manner to be a catchall.

 

 

 

Shoal does two things here. It allows the deck to play very aggressive game 1s, and it hoses the linear archetypes that define Modern. Turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Goyf in a deck without Shoal might get there, but it might also lose to Lightning Bolt and Terminate. Conversely, leading with Delver and Shoaling an opposing Hierarch can devastate opponents. Mana Leak hits everything with CMC 3+, since by the time those spells see the stack we should have a threat and some mana. Shoal also gives us an edge against Infect, Bloom Titan, Burn, Living End, Bogles, and others. Modern’s lack of catch-all answers like Force of Will allows these decks to shape the format. But while the linear decks attack from different angles, and often demand very specific sideboard answers (Ancient Grudge, Feed the Clan, etc.), they all rely heavily on one- and two-drops. This deck is full of one- and two-mana blue cards. We have Force of Will.

 

As I mentioned,

 

 

It is as mentioned that sometimes the best tool to fight combo is also the best tool to defend combo.

It wouldn't be just a tool to fight, but also a tool to defend. But decks already have a better tool in Pact of Negation. It combos with Hivemind. Grishoalbrand can go off with it. Living End doesn't even run blue. Bogles wouldn't care for it at all. Infect wouldn't be bothered too much, they are more worried for a Force Spike effect because of how effective this strategy needs to be with modern. Storm would use it as a two-of if anything, and it doesn't help too much.

[Simping For Hina]

The thing is, there isn't enough good card filtering and main deck protection spells that make Force of Will completely dominating.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

After people see what it does in legacy, it is difficult to convince them that, in a vacuum, force of will is a really, really bad card. When used as a "fair" counter, it really hits too hard on advantage to be viable. It is like the anti-cryptic. Cryptic Command has a somewhat restrictive mana cost, but reward the user with a +1 (as well as tons of options). Force of will is a -1 that also pings down life slightly, but the fact that it acts as an effective counter any turn for 0 mana allows it to keep the bullshit in check.

[Simping For Hina]

I get that, and I am understanding of it, but the tools to make it as good as it is in Legacy as it is in Modern isn't completely there. I could still be completely wrong here anyways.