Gender in video games

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

This is partially cause I noticed Agro nerding out about Link's gender in a General topic. So I figured I would make a topic like this for that kind of thing.

Which is basically about the role of gender in video games. And what video games are doing right, wrong, or should be doing more of.

I know it's vague but I think we can make a topic like this work.

If you have a topic you think fits this thread then feel free to have at it.

Discuss stuff.

[Tentacruel]

It matters in RPG's where you can create your character.  It also has an impact on the story from the writer's standpoint.

 

I don't really see how a video game could do gender "wrong."  In non-MMO, non-instanced-character games, I don't really see the point of playing a character that shares your gender.  

 

I wouldn't really say we need more female protags for the sake of having more female protags, but I would say that if someone wants to make a game with a female protag, it really sucks when some guy in a suit says no because hurr durr flowcharts and statistics. 

[GarlandChaos]

If you ask me, I'd say male protagonists are completely overdone and somewhat generic. Samus is one of the most popular female video game protagonists for a reason, folks. Make more protagonists like her. Please. :<

[Tentacruel]

It's not even just a bunch of male protagonists.  It's the same male protagonist.

 

Count how many white guys with short brown hair in their early 30's you can find.  There's a funking lot of them. 

[GarlandChaos]

It's not even just a bunch of male protagonists.  It's the same male protagonist.

 

Count how many white guys with short brown hair in their early 30's you can find.  There's a funking lot of them. 

Now check how many white male protagonists with blonde hair there are in video games. There's so many that it's nuts.

 

I'm looking at YOU, Cloud.

[Agro]

The basic argument on allowing choice of gender in video games comes down to: If who the character is doesn't matter, why not add the option?

 

And it's fine to only have one option. In the at least 4 years I've spent talking to people about these sorts of things and reading articles about it, it's pretty clear that the only time what gender you play as is brought up as an issue is actually just when a developer gives a terrible answer to that question. Again, I always want to reiterate that the developer is free to choose whatever they want and that the response to the question can always be "I didn't feel like it," "I didn't want to," or "I didn't think about it." Many times, though, the developer may get defensive, as if asking the question is offensive to them in some way, and offer up an answer that does not satisfy and in many cases offers a very negative view on what they're doing. The best examples I can think of off the top of my head are from what the director of Tri Force heroes said, and also that one dude that made Puppeteer.

 

So again, it's never about what gender you can play as. It's always about thinking through why you can only play as a certain gender.

 

On a business and creative standpoint, it seems more logical to just allow there to be many options as long as who the character is doesn't matter.

[Flame Dragon]

See, I think an important thing to keep in mind is that if when a game has a restricted race/gender and you won't be happy unless its white male because thats what you are, why should you expect everyone who isn't a white male to be happy when that happens. Honestly, having the ability to pick gender and race (honestly race is just as important an issue) is obviously just the best way to go about things. When the game designer however doesn't allow that its SO important to realize that just expecting it to be white male is very unfair to all the people who would want to see someone like themselves on the screen who isn't that since they so rarely get to have that happen.

[King K. Azo]

I dunno...

 

See, RPGs and things, yeah, I'm all for gender selection! It's actually amazing! I love it!

 

But in narrative driven stories... I think the gender has to be kinda set. And then there are some games I couldn't imagine a female protagonist... Mostly Asura's Wrath... Because Asura's Wrath.

 

But a new female protagonist like Samus or Lara Croft... I'm all for that!

 

Let me ask so etching related, but not connected to the above thing. I'm trying to make my own game, and the three playable characters are male. Is that okay? I list my reasons here....

A) it's easier for me to write males and therefore write a better story because I'm not second guessing myself, and honestly, I don't want to f*** up a female protagonist...

B) ... Honestly, as soon as a female is thrown in, it's gonna devolve into romance and that's not the kind of story I want. Yes, people will ship, and there will be pairings and maybe even yaoi... But... It's not supposed to be that kind of story.

 

Like... Am I being sexist or doing something wrong because I wanna write a story like that?

[Flame Dragon]

I dunno...

 

See, RPGs and things, yeah, I'm all for gender selection! It's actually amazing! I love it!

 

But in narrative driven stories... I think the gender has to be kinda set. And then there are some games I couldn't imagine a female protagonist... Mostly Asura's Wrath... Because Asura's Wrath.

 

But a new female protagonist like Samus or Lara Croft... I'm all for that!

 

Let me ask so etching related, but not connected to the above thing. I'm trying to make my own game, and the three playable characters are male. Is that okay? I list my reasons here....

A) it's easier for me to write males and therefore write a better story because I'm not second guessing myself, and honestly, I don't want to f*** up a female protagonist...

B) ... Honestly, as soon as a female is thrown in, it's gonna devolve into romance and that's not the kind of story I want. Yes, people will ship, and there will be pairings and maybe even yaoi... But... It's not supposed to be that kind of story.

 

Like... Am I being sexist or doing something wrong because I wanna write a story like that?

It might be because I'm not familiar with narrative driven games, but I don't see why a female protagonist would need to cause major changes to it. Something like Asura's wrath is (I believe) based on a male deity so it makes sense why they would choose have it be male. And it is true that humans do expect a man to act in certain ways and a female to act in others so its easier to go with the natural flow. However their is something to be said for subverting those expectations.

 

A) Not wanting to include a women for fear of writing them poorly is certainly a fair reason. However that does open you up to not wanting to include any females in the game in general for similar fears. Which I don't think is a bad thing, at least not at first. Wanting to make sure the characters you write are good characters sticking to what you know is perfectly fine. However if you are planning to write, anything, games, books, movies, doesn't matter, learning how to write outside yourself is an important skill to develop. Ask for advice, see how other good characters are written, and have people that would be more knowledge in writing those types of characters look over what your doing. When your first starting out its fine to stick to what you know, but the excuse of ignorance can only last for so long.

 

B) Something like this I feel is a copout. If you don't want romance, don't include it. People will literally ship anything for almost any reason, not including it out of fear of it being twisted to something you don't want is seems poor. As a writer your job is to tell a good story with good characters, how the audience responds to it is honestly not something you'll have a ton of control over so worrying about things past those two roles isn't going to help you. That isn't to say you won't, its human, but understanding what you can and can't control is important.

[King K. Azo]

It might be because I'm not familiar with narrative driven games, but I don't see why a female protagonist would need to cause major changes to it. Something like Asura's wrath is (I believe) based on a male deity so it makes sense why they would choose have it be male. And it is true that humans do expect a man to act in certain ways and a female to act in others so its easier to go with the natural flow. However their is something to be said for subverting those expectations.A) Not wanting to include a women for fear of writing them poorly is certainly a fair reason. However that does open you up to not wanting to include any females in the game in general for similar fears. Which I don't think is a bad thing, at least not at first. Wanting to make sure the characters you write are good characters sticking to what you know is perfectly fine. However if you are planning to write, anything, games, books, movies, doesn't matter, learning how to write outside yourself is an important skill to develop. Ask for advice, see how other good characters are written, and have people that would be more knowledge in writing those types of characters look over what your doing. When your first starting out its fine to stick to what you know, but the excuse of ignorance can only last for so long.B) Something like this I feel is a copout. If you don't want romance, don't include it. People will literally ship anything for almost any reason, not including it out of fear of it being twisted to something you don't want is seems poor. As a writer your job is to tell a good story with good characters, how the audience responds to it is honestly not something you'll have a ton of control over so worrying about things past those two roles isn't going to help you. That isn't to say you won't, its human, but understanding what you can and can't control is important.

These are both fair points. Yeah, I think the best thing for me to do is practice first.

As for the second thing... Yeah, you're completely right, that is a bit of a cop out,

[Agro]

As a writer myself, I gotta say it's important to write out of your comfort zone.

 

It'll just be a first draft anyway. It's not like you're shipping a finished product when you write it up.

 

Just do it. *ahem* JUST DO IT. Then have someone read it over and offer criticism, specifically a woman if the character you're worried about is female.

 

It's a half-truthful running joke among people I read that women can write men better than men can write women, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

 

But if you want to go with 3 male characters, it's your game, so obv do what you want.

[Flame Dragon]

It's a half-truthful running joke among people I read that women can write men better than men can write women, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

I feel like thats a result from there being more male lead media so they good template to work off of. Obviously this just further highlights the importance of having more female leads since the same would apply, when your exposed to more well written female leads people in general will get a better idea on what they should do when they try to write one themselves.

[King K. Azo]

Thanks guys.

 

I know, I know, my game, but let's be honest, do you ever truly get to make what you want? Some corporation or public outcry would want to make changes and I guess wanna avoid that so I asked that question.

 

Back to subject at hand...

 

I think FE Awakening and Fates handle it best.

[Agro]

Personally, the best use I've ever seen is Saints Row IV.

 

You can be a black lesbian woman superhero president with a personality if you want to.

 

Plus it's fun as all hell.

[mitchermitcher]

As long as you're making a female protagonist(or a male protagonist, although this case is noticeably rarer) for your video game simply because you want to, rather than to satisfy or pander to another group of people, I love that. Sure, from a business standpoint there's really very little to lose by allowing a choice in gender, but it does kinda sadden me if that's the only reason you're going to include gender diversity. If you want to star a female protagonist in a mainly male-centric game, go ahead. If you want to keep featuring male protagonists when half the internet demands gender diversity, go ahead.

[Lonk]

As of late, Nintendo has been doing amazing with the representation of the female gender in gaming.  Take note of the larger cast of the female characters in Smash, making Peach and Rosalina playable in 3D World, funding Bayonetta 2 despite the risks associated with it and look at how many strong female characters there are in Xenoblade Chronicles X, both on the protagonist side AND antagonist side (along with being able to select Cross's gender).