I'm sorry, I need to blow off steam.

[Tentacruel]

My argument is that character customization is not really a necessary thing.  Zelda would be a fine series to just have your protagonist be a completely different person in each game, but they've already stuck to (essentially) the same guy for 30 years now.  Changing it now would piss people off.  If you had a female Link that still looked like Link, people would get mad.  If you made Link a black guy, even more people would get mad.

 

I don't know what the answer is, and I don't think it'd be that big of a deal if they just stuck with the same Link. 

[Agro]

I don't know what the answer is, and I don't think it'd be that big of a deal if they just stuck with the same Link. 

Well it's not a big deal, and none of the articles talking about it have made the fact that they stick with a male Link a big deal.

 

But that doesn't mean they aren't completely open to the criticism the decision to continue to do so leads to. If you keep making the hero male, even though it's a different person virtually every time, then it does send a message that only men can be the hero. And I mean you can obviously stretch that to minorities, but women also aren't a minority. They're half (if not over half) of the population of the world. And the folks who always get up in arms about people suggesting this kind of stuff usually are the same people saying "It doesn't matter" constantly. And they're totally right. It doesn't matter. So if it doesn't matter, why not do it even once? I can guarantee you that people will get over it really quickly. If the game still plays like Zelda and looks like Zelda, they shouldn't care. Besides studies have shown that it's women who care more about playing as their gender than men do, so it makes more sense on a business standpoint. Especially if you're only doing it once.

 

And even if people do get upset, they'll get shot down with the same argument they've been throwing at the other side for ages. "If you're so upset about their decision, why don't YOU go make the game?" Plus we can just point to Windwaker over and over again.

 

Anyway, that's all besides the point. The article in question isn't criticizing the fact that Link is always male. It's criticizing WHY the director says Link is male in this specific game, which is a really bullshit answer he shouldn't have given in favor of "we didn't want to" or "we didn't think about it" which are arguably the most acceptable answers you could give in that situation.

[Slinky]

Well it's not a big deal, and none of the articles talking about it have made the fact that they stick with a male Link a big deal.

 

But that doesn't mean they aren't completely open to the criticism the decision to continue to do so leads to. If you keep making the hero male, even though it's a different person virtually every time, then it does send a message that only men can be the hero. And I mean you can obviously stretch that to minorities, but women also aren't a minority. They're half (if not over half) of the population of the world. And the folks who always get up in arms about people suggesting this kind of stuff usually are the same people saying "It doesn't matter" constantly. And they're totally right. It doesn't matter. So if it doesn't matter, why not do it even once? I can guarantee you that people will get over it really quickly. If the game still plays like Zelda and looks like Zelda, they shouldn't care. Besides studies have shown that it's women who care more about playing as their gender than men do, so it makes more sense on a business standpoint. Especially if you're only doing it once.

 

And even if people do get upset, they'll get shot down with the same argument they've been throwing at the other side for ages. "If you're so upset about their decision, why don't YOU go make the game?" Plus we can just point to Windwaker over and over again.

 

Anyway, that's all besides the point. The article in question isn't criticizing the fact that Link is always male. It's criticizing WHY the director says Link is male in this specific game, which is a really bullshit answer he shouldn't have given in favor of "we didn't want to" or "we didn't think about it" which are arguably the most acceptable answers you could give in that situation.

 

Why would Link be female anyway? What's the point in that? Link has always been male, changing it now will upset more people than it would otherwise.

[Agro]

Why would Link be female anyway? What's the point in that? Link has always been male, changing it now will upset more people than it would otherwise.

However I can argue: who is Link?

 

Link isn't the same person every time the character appears.

Hell, Link isn't even the character's name if the player chooses to use another.

Link has always been a blank slate for the player to emulate themselves onto.

Link has no dialogue, and outside of Windwaker, does not have much, if any, personality.

 

Increasingly, the argument:

"Why would Link be female anyway? What's the point in that?"

Can be easily responded to with:

"Why wouldn't Link be female anyway? What's the point in that?"

 

Yes, the developers can continue making Link male, and a reason could be that it is the way it has always been. But that doesn't make the creative decision not appear more like a lazy decision, and it can be criticized as such because that's how art works.

 

They could also continue to make Link male, and the reason could be that changing it now would upset more people than it would otherwise (which I assume you mean to say "than it would if they didn't change it.") That's probably the fairest argument. The argument against that being (1) Nintendo has made purely aesthetic changes in the past that fans have disliked before coming to absolutely love the game (a la Wind Waker) and (2) As much as people keep hating on others for suggesting that Link could or should be a girl, they have also, I feel, equally expressed that it doesn't matter whether Link is a boy or a girl, which is why those in favor can comment again: "Why not just do it?"

[Tentacruel]

Link is still male for the same reason Link still wears green and there are lives in Mario games, and that's because it's always been like that.  

 

If you were gonna make Link female, I'd honestly rather see someone completely different (like a black woman in a completely different costume (no I'm not being sarcastic)) than just Link with tits.  But again, even though you could say Link is a different person in every game, he really isn't. 

 

While typing this, I had an idea.  You could make a Zelda game where you don't play as Link.  You're just some jabroni saving the world anyway because funk the police.  It could be like kinda of a spinoff but not really. 

[Flame Dragon]

The people who say "it doesn't matter" honestly confuses me. Because one, if they say it doesn't matter why does it bother you? Let them have it, it doesn't matter right? And two, it does matter. Representation matters. A pretty famous example is Whoopi Goldberg watching Star Trek and being excited about a black women being on TV in a role that didn't have her as a maid or the like. Seeing yourself as the hero in a story matters a lot more than people think it does and the reality is a lot of the time that hero is a white male because its made by white males with a white male audience in mind. That isn't value statement, thats just a bias humans have. When they make things they are going to use themselves as the base. This is why increasing diversity in something like the gaming industry is so important

 

As for the subject of making Link a girl would it be weird, probably. Would people get over it pretty quickly, probably. Though I do agree simply going the "Link with boobs route" isn't the best. Honestly, the new game would have been the perfect place to have the option for boy or girl.

[Agro]

Link is still male for the same reason Link still wears green and there are lives in Mario games, and that's because it's always been like that.  

 

Yeah, and that's fine. But you can still criticize it for being a little lazy.

 

If you were gonna make Link female, I'd honestly rather see someone completely different (like a black woman in a completely different costume (no I'm not being sarcastic)) than just Link with tits.  

 

And that's a fine idea too!

 

But again, even though you could say Link is a different person in every game, he really isn't. 

 

You're right. Only virtually every game ;>

 

While typing this, I had an idea.  You could make a Zelda game where you don't play as Link.  You're just some jabroni saving the world anyway because funk the police.  It could be like kinda of a spinoff but not really. 

And that's a fine idea too. And the developers could decide to do it or not do it. But it doesn't delegitimize the idea in the first place, which is part of my point.

The people who say "it doesn't matter" honestly confuses me. Because one, if they say it doesn't matter why does it bother you? Let them have it, it doesn't matter right? And two, it does matter. Representation matters. A pretty famous example is Whoopi Goldberg watching Star Trek and being excited about a black women being on TV in a role that didn't have her as a maid or the like. Seeing yourself as the hero in a story matters a lot more than people think it does and the reality is a lot of the time that hero is a white male because its made by white males with a white male audience in mind. That isn't value statement, thats just a bias humans have. When they make things they are going to use themselves as the base. This is why increasing diversity in something like the gaming industry is so important

 

As for the subject of making Link a girl would it be weird, probably. Would people get over it pretty quickly, probably. Though I do agree simply going the "Link with boobs route" isn't the best. Honestly, the new game would have been the perfect place to have the option for boy or girl.

brb going to marriage thread to have you added alongside rai

[Tentacruel]

[in quote]

What I meant by the fact that he's the same person is that while they're technically not the same person, they might as well be.

 

Same look.

Same hair.

Same [lack of] personality.

 

Same with Zelda.  

[Agro]

What I meant by the fact that he's the same person is that while they're technically not the same person, they might as well be.

 

Same look.

Same hair.

Same [lack of] personality.

 

Same with Zelda.  

They slightly change Link's look all the time though. Slighly different facial features and slighly larger breasts and by most measures, he would look female, no? It takes as much of a change in chromosomes to change Link's hair color from brown to blonde as it does to turn him from male to female.

 

You can make all the arguments you want as to why they wouldn't do it, but it doesn't change the fact that they could if they wanted and it would be fine.

[King K. Azo]

However I can argue: who is Link?

 

Link isn't the same person every time the character appears.

Hell, Link isn't even the character's name if the player chooses to use another.

Link has always been a blank slate for the player to emulate themselves onto.

Link has no dialogue, and outside of Windwaker, does not have much, if any, personality.

 

Increasingly, the argument:

"Why would Link be female anyway? What's the point in that?"

Can be easily responded to with:

"Why wouldn't Link be female anyway? What's the point in that?"

 

Yes, the developers can continue making Link male, and a reason could be that it is the way it has always been. But that doesn't make the creative decision not appear more like a lazy decision, and it can be criticized as such because that's how art works.

 

They could also continue to make Link male, and the reason could be that changing it now would upset more people than it would otherwise (which I assume you mean to say "than it would if they didn't change it.") That's probably the fairest argument. The argument against that being (1) Nintendo has made purely aesthetic changes in the past that fans have disliked before coming to absolutely love the game (a la Wind Waker) and (2) As much as people keep hating on others for suggesting that Link could or should be a girl, they have also, I feel, equally expressed that it doesn't matter whether Link is a boy or a girl, which is why those in favor can comment again: "Why not just do it?"

And if we do that... You know what has to happen? Zelda would have to be male, and Ganon female.

 

And before anyone says anything, you said

you keep making the hero male, even though it's a different person virtually every time, then it does send a message that only men can be the hero

You could also argue because Ganon is always male, that it sends a message that only males can be a villain.

And then because of the logic presented above, Zelda would have to be male.

All three are reincarnated throughout time over and over again, under the same curse, so then the same rules would have to apply. At that point, you've changed a lot about this core game...

 

Actually no, screw that, I want to see that. That could be really freakin' interesting.

[Agro]

And if we do that... You know what has to happen? Zelda would have to be male, and Ganon female.

Well no one said anyone had to do anything.

 

And I'm not sure how I feel about how your post feels like it's going for a "slippery slope" argument.

 

But yeah, they can definitely do everything you said.

 

Though I should point out that many of the arguments I used for Link don't apply to Zelda or Ganondorf. When they appear, their name is always Zelda and Ganondorf (or Ganon). They've often had at least some character development since Link to the Past and have a ton of Dialogue. They're more characters than Link has ever been, basically. Though I don't know how many times Ganondorf has been reincarnated, as most of the time, he's just getting revived or brought from another realm. I can only think of a few times where it happened.

 

Could they be different genders? Of course! That would be really interesting if they get reincarnated as something else. I think the only change I'd see is if it happened to Zelda, since it could fall into Zelda II's backstory where all princesses are named Zelda. If male!Zelda is a prince, it's possible their name isn't Zelda. Though male!Zelda could totally still be the reincarnation of Hylia or the Sage of Time. It would definitely be cool.

 

Personally, I think it's easier to do it with Link as the character is just a blank slate that never really screamed any gender at any point, but yeah, they could genderswap the others and it would be just as interesting if not more. I honestly thought Yuga was a girl for all of Link Between Worlds. Thought nothing of it, at least, and at most, thought it was cool.

[King K. Azo]

This one point is not an argument, just so facts are laid straight, Ganon does reincarnate, at least in Ocarina... Because he was born... And it was actually a big deal he was male. Because he basically came from a race of desert Amazons. From there, I'm not sure.

 

There are over... 9 Links, I believe?

 

Skyward Sword is the first.

Then we have Ocarina and Majora's mask...

Then it splits to Link to the Past, which is the same Link for those games...

Windwaker, which becomes a different Link in Spirit Tracks.

And then Twilight princess...

And then the unnamed one that defeated the dragon Majora...

Four Swords and some other weird adventures...

And then of course.., the CD-I Link...

 

We don't speak of him...

 

But... Most of them have the same core 'personality'...

 

But honestly, those traits could pass to a woman.

 

I think Zelda may HAVE to be a girl because Goddess reincarnation..,, but probably not.

 

Well no one said anyone had to do anything.

 

And I'm not sure how I feel about how your post feels like it's going for a "slippery slope" argument.

 

Well, I may have worded it weird, because I'm half asleep, but I was trying to argue that you can't just say 'only because the hero is male means we're sending a message that only males can be heroes' because you're saying the exact same thing for the villain. I mean, you can, but then you have to change the villain as well. You can't cry over one side and not address the other.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I think I should stop and sleep.

[Agro]

This one point is not an argument, just so facts are laid straight, Ganon does reincarnate, at least in Ocarina... Because he was born... And it was actually a big deal he was male. Because he basically came from a race of desert Amazons. From there, I'm not sure.

 

 

Well, I may have worded it weird, because I'm half asleep, but I was trying to argue that you can't just say 'only because the hero is male means we're sending a message that only males can be heroes' because you're saying the exact same thing for the villain. I mean, you can, but then you have to change the villain as well. You can't cry over one side and not address the other.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I think I should stop and sleep.

Well Ganon hasn't been the only villain in the series, and at least a few of the villains have been female. But I think you can do one without the other, because unlike the villains, men have always been the hero. Women have only been the side characters, kidnapped characters, or villain. So I'd say there's definitely a difference there.

 

Also please don't use the term "cry" to describe criticism.

[King K. Azo]

Also please don't use the term "cry" to describe criticism.

Fair enough, sorry.

 

[EDIT] Actually hold on... I don't believe there was a female Zelda villain, not like in the role of Ganon... Because, as the tv trope says "The plot was hijacked by Ganon". In the end, they are either manipulated or he was the main goal.

 

And full stop. Sleepy brain has come to a realization. In the story canon, it is completely possible for Ganon not to be the main villain. It's just the favored villain. It's actually the spirit of Demise doing all this. So we can totally have a female villain, female Link and... Okay maybe not male Zelda...

 

Dang.., I'm sorry... I completely strayed away from the original intent of this topic...

 

But dang it, that's be cool!

 

As for playable hero... Yeah, Link is the only one... Your point stands.

 

I sleep now.