God, Religion and higher powers

[epicmemesbro]

Religion, from a sociocultural standpoint, is psychological. It provides 3 common needs

 

1) helps cope with the concept of dying.

 

2) provides comfort that benevolent spirits watch over us

 

3) it gives meaning in purpose to a world that might otherwise seem cruel and senseless.

 

I also see it as a means of creating a community, similar to this one.

 

Also it isn't a matter of proving that God exists or not, its a matter of having faith in him.

Kinda like believing in ourselves. We doubt yourselves and question our place in this world at one point. But we take the initiative to try our hardest and to do something worth doing.

 

This is merely one point of view, no h8 plz. Like a puzzle, we need all povs to decide for ourselves.

[a bad post]

I believe in a God and I believe in a Heaven, because put quite simply I believe that everybody deserves a happy ending. I believe that the father who worked multiple jobs so that his children could become successful, have a good education, and a bright future, deserves to find peace and happiness at the end of his journey. I believe that those who died valiantly serving their country so that others could live a free and blissful life, and not come to face with the tragic reality of the world, deserve to have their noble sacrifice acknowledged. I believe that the Holocaust victim who suffered under the evil machinations of cold and heartless men deserves to find a place where they will no longer have to suffer. And I believe that the thought that my being, whether it be deemed evil or otherwise, simply ceases to exist, to be quite frank, unacceptable. 

 

That being said I believe that God is an abstract being that is far beyond human comprehension as we are are two completely different entities on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. So, in my opinion the entire argument of whether or not God exists, and what his true nature is to be useless conjecture, as we have only human standard to base Him off of, which is something He is quite simply not.

[Susie]

religion and science are both needed for this world to function imo

 

personally i believe in God or some other higher being but i dont believe in worshipping that being or going to church, though if you do then thats fine by me

[~~~~]

Forgot this topic was about religion. As for a god:
 
Here is what I believe is logically provable. If my reasoning is incorrect, please tell me: An omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent being cannot exist while suffering also does. If the being were not absolutely omnipotent, you could make the argument that maybe it had some plan that required suffering, but an omnipotent being has no requirements. If the being were not absolutely omnipotent you could say that there was some hurtful being more powerful than it, or a harmful being that the not-quite-omnipotent being didn't have total power over. If the being was not omniscient you could say that the being was unaware of our suffering, or that it was unaware of the full depth of our suffering, or just how bad suffering is. If the being were either not omni-benevolent or not omnipotent, you could say that it was practising some sort of non-interventionist policy, however, the omnipotence means that any intervention will be successful, with no possible backlash (unless the being wills it for whatever reason) and the omni-benevolence means that the being cannot sit back idly while it has the power to stop bad things happening with absolutely no negative consequences.
 
All that above paragraph only argues against some people's conception of a god. For other versions of god, I would take a more agnostic stance, specifically, "I do not believe a god exists, nor do I believe that a god does not exist.". The reason I take this stance is because there is no evidence for either claim. Some people take this to mean that it becomes a matter of faith, but just take this thought experiment:
 
There is a jar full of sweets, like the sort of one where you can try and guess how many sweets are in the jar, but this time you are wondering whether the amount of sweets in the jar is an odd or even number. Since you are not allowed to count and have no other way of working out the answer, do you decide that, for example, there are an odd number of sweets in the jar and that anyone claiming otherwise is in disagreement with you? No. You take what is called the "null hypothesis". (I linked to the Simple English Wikipedia because I didn't understand the normal English Wikipedia, not because I was trying to be patronising.)

 

Despite this, I call myself an Atheist, not an agnostic, because I liek the sound of the word, and I like the look of the capital A (I have a hobby in pretending to be an architect).

 

Sorry if parts of this seem a bit aggressive, but I really do mean only to explain my own reasoning as to why I am an Atheist.

 

As to how I was brought up, my mum is an ex-Christian atheist who doesn't talk about religion or atheism often, but she will sometimes talk about how Christianity was just a tool for kings/monks etc to control everyone else during the Middle Ages (she did a degree or something in history, also these are her words and thoughts, please no angry responses to me for that). My dad is an agnostic who was brought up atheist partly because his dad was brought up in a cult and he [my grandpa] was excommunicated for reading On the Origin of Species and thus was not allowed to have any contact with the rest of his family when he was still quite young. As you might be able to imagine, my grandpa is quite an angry and anti-religious person. I don't know why my dad's mum is an atheist. I went to a primary school where we had a prayer everyday and were taught stories from the Bible in RE lessons.

 

Sorry for the long post, it seems to be a trademark of me on this site.

[VCR_CAT]

#Realtalk

 

What you're rolling off of is a lot of basic human ideals of what a truly good life is. Simply working off the framework of suffering, there are many layers we can peel back and examine; we could talk for a long time about what truly makes life good, and this is where the kicker really comes in; could a good God exist where there is nothing bad in the world? Well, yes, I mean it's kind of silly to ask that question because the question of whether there is nothing bad in the world doesn't actually determine whether a God that is good exist or not; it's kind of irrelevant to that.

But the thing is, a world where all problems are solved without any negative consequence isn't a good world. If there's nothing bad, there's nothing to do, nowhere to go but to experience sensory input that continues to make the created feel good. Yet, that alone doesn't fulfill a creation; pleasure ALONE does not make for a good world because it can only satisfy a person for so long. The old proverb goes "If you find honey, eat just enough-- too much of it, and you will vomit." A world of nothing but good sensory input isn't a good world because there's no meaning; there's no purpose. There's nothing but feeling good. When the fleeting fulfillment of pleasure wears off, the person feels empty and there is suffering because nothing else exists in that world; except now suffering is brought back into the equation.

Okay, but we're talking omnipotence here so let's slow things down for a second; say the world was created without any concept of suffering; the concept of bad does not exist. I don't know exactly how that would manifest because the concept of "bad" isn't a thing that can be created; just like how light is a real, tangible thing and "Darkness" is just the abstract definition of absence of light. It's not a thing. But whatever, let's say it's not there and there's nothing but good, perfect fulfillment. Then what's life but mindless drones experiencing nothing but pleasurable inputs? What kind of life is that? The life where a person cannot do bad because bad is not a thing. But how can bad not be a thing? I can tell you one framework; the one where free will isn't a thing.

 

The thing is, the question "How can a good God exist if there is so much bad?" is a question that has been asked for thousands of years. I actually have a book on this; it helped me through a tough time; it's called "How can a Good God Let Bad Things Happen?" by Mark Tabb. It was also a textbook for a class on the Book of Job I took in my first year of Bible College taught by the most learned man in Canada regarding the book. It's a very good textbook and tackles this question.

 

And the thing is, there's a lot of really deep meaning hidden in here. When you explore the question of "How can a Good God exist if bad things happen?" you begin to explore questions like "How can free will exist without bad things?" I honestly believe it can't; when you give free will, you give the choice to do something wrong. We can choose what to do and live our lives; we can choose to believe, we can choose to do what's right, and we can do what's wrong. Suffering exists for so many reasons (there's a whole book written on it if you want to check it out. I know I'll be reading it again); it exists because it brings meaning and fulfilment; it exists because through it we better ourselves and become more as people; it exists because in order for the TRULY good things to come to fruition, the TRULY bad things need to happen.

 

Think of it in literary terms; in a character arc, you need to DESTROY the character, and I mean CRUSH them. You establish a character with where they are, you establish their faults and where they are in life; what they value, what gives them life, what holds them back, and what they cling to. Then, you drop them in hell. You utterly crush everything they think is right. Then? Then they're built back up; they reach a redemption in the plot that fulfills the empty spaces; it ties the loose ends and completes the character. Their previous views were challenged and now they're something new and better; they've been refined in a fierce flame and become that pure gold the reader wants them to be. Does life work like this? Sometimes, but people aren't mindless characters where they have no control over their actions and it's up to the writer to do everything. That's not how life works; people have free will. But there's still truth in this; a story where nothing bad happens doesn't go anywhere. It's bad; it's meaningless; it's garbage. Life is like a story, and if life is to be truly good then it can't stagnate like that.

 

I'd do a tl;dr on all of that, but there's a little too much to unravel there, and I could keep going. Heck, a book was written on this so no DUH I could keep going. But instead, I'll offer this quick little tl;dr:



TL;DR: A good God can exist while bad things happen. A God is not good when there is nothing bad in life. It's quite the interesting paradox we have going.

 

 

Anyways, it's pretty late where I am. I'm not doing any of this to go on about how you should believe in God now. You are free to believe what you want to believe (god bless America). This is just a topic that I've been very invested in over quite some time and I love to talk about it. Also also, I don't think I really offended anyone, but if I did I do apologize. Not trying to start a flamewar so plzdonthurtme.

[Yellow Jacket]

You guys need to see Supernatural. Its a good show and it actually had me believing that maybe there is a god. He just doesn't think we're his problems anymore and left. It could explain the reason why he made so many appearances or so in the bible but now (if he's real) is just mum.

[King K. Azo]

Okay, time to throw my two cents in. I better get change.

 

I am Christian, have been for 16 years, and I believe in a God that created the heavens and the Earth, and made man. He gave them free will, and with this free will, they messed up. So he sent his Son to die for our sins.

 

I can not prove by absolute science he exists, but I have seen burns on my own body heal instantly like I was Wolverine, seen close friends that could never walk their whole lives suddenly be able to instantly, and even seen broken bones snap back into place. That tells me there is one out there, even if I can't prove it to you.

 

To me, there is no way I can convince myself there ISN'T one.

 

For those that say, 'oh, bad things happen in this world'... Well yeah, and it's because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They basically said, 'We don't need you, this tree of knowledge will make us like you' so God said 'Okay, if you don't need me, I won't interfere'.

 

To those who say 'God must have made evil' I pose this question? What is darkness? Darkness is an absence of light. In the same way, evil is an absence of God.

 

To those that say 'Oh, well, the dusty old Bible is irrelevant' I say yes... The first half of the book is. The laws in the Old Testiment was for the Jews, to set them apart from the rest of the world. There are still lessons I can learn from it, but I don't go around stoning people.

 

That's my thoughts on this subject.

[Azure Wolf]

Okay, time to throw my two cents in. I better get change.

I am Christian, have been for 16 years, and I believe in a God that created the heavens and the Earth, and made man. He gave them free will, and with this free will, they messed up. So he sent his Son to die for our sins.

I can not prove by absolute science he exists, but I have seen burns on my own body heal instantly like I was Wolverine, seen close friends that could never walk their whole lives suddenly be able to instantly, and even seen broken bones snap back into place. That tells me there is one out there, even if I can't prove it to you.

To me, there is no way I can convince myself there ISN'T one.

For those that say, 'oh, bad things happen in this world'... Well yeah, and it's because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They basically said, 'We don't need you, this tree of knowledge will make us like you' so God said 'Okay, if you don't need me, I won't interfere'.

To those who say 'God must have made evil' I pose this question? What is darkness? Darkness is an absence of light. In the same way, evil is an absence of God.

To those that say 'Oh, well, the dusty old Bible is irrelevant' I say yes... The first half of the book is. The laws in the Old Testiment was for the Jews, to set them apart from the rest of the world. There are still lessons I can learn from it, but I don't go around stoning people.

That's my thoughts on this subject.

I agree here. What some people, Christians include, seem to believe that God created evil. Opposites will always exist with the earliest known evil being pride when Licifer beleived he could do a better job than God.

[chairman ali]

Without a prophet or apostle, religion will be misinterpreted.

[Agro]

Without a prophet or apostle, religion will be misinterpreted.

On the other hand you can also argue that religion is and always has been individual interpretation

[Yellow Jacket]

^ How right you are. And where is the joke about a mans butt you left out?

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Thing is, people have always and will always need SOME form of guidance. It's just how we're built. Religion, and prophets/apostles by extension, are a good way to get some level of guidance in your life.

[Yellow Jacket]

^ I can see what you're getting at but for me I don't need guidance at all. I just believe in myself.

[Tentacruel]

On the other hand, some people follow religion because they actually believe in the teachings.  

[King K. Azo]

^ I can see what you're getting at but for me I don't need guidance at all. I just believe in myself.

Genuine curiosity. What do you believe about yourself? Can this be applied to others around you, or just yourself?

[Yellow Jacket]

^Nope. Mainly just myself. I'll tell you what I think but its all up to you to decide. My arrogance makes me think I AM a god. Therefore no worshipping needed.

[Simping For Hina]

Do you believe in magic? I do. 

 

 

In a young girls heart
How the music can free her
whenever it starts

And it's magic
if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old time movie

I'll tell ya about the magic
It'll free your soul
but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

If you believe in magic, don't bother to choose
If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues
Just go and listen
It'll start with a smile
It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try
Your feet start tapping
And you can't seem to find
How you got there
So just blow your mind

If you believe in magic
Come along with me
We'll dance until morning, just you and me
and maybe, if the music is right
I'll meet ya tomorrow
so late at night

We'll go a dancin' baby then you'll see
all the magic's in the music and the music's in me, yeah

Do you belive in magic? Yeah.
Believe in the magic in a young girl's soul
believe in the magic of rock n roll
Believe in the magic that can set you free
Ohhhh, talkin' bout magic

Do you believe like I believe?
Do you believe in magic?
[repeat]

[Tourmaline]

How long did it take you to learn that magic precedes everything and exists even in people incapable of understanding it? It is not to be spoken of, however.

[King K. Azo]

Do you believe in magic? I do. 

 

 

In a young girls heart

How the music can free her

whenever it starts

And it's magic

if the music is groovy

It makes you feel happy like an old time movie

I'll tell ya about the magic

It'll free your soul

but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

If you believe in magic, don't bother to choose

If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues

Just go and listen

It'll start with a smile

It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try

Your feet start tapping

And you can't seem to find

How you got there

So just blow your mind

If you believe in magic

Come along with me

We'll dance until morning, just you and me

and maybe, if the music is right

I'll meet ya tomorrow

so late at night

We'll go a dancin' baby then you'll see

all the magic's in the music and the music's in me, yeah

Do you belive in magic? Yeah.

Believe in the magic in a young girl's soul

believe in the magic of rock n roll

Believe in the magic that can set you free

Ohhhh, talkin' bout magic

Do you believe like I believe?

Do you believe in magic?

[repeat]

Um.... That's a.... That's a very nice.

[.Rooster]

I don't really want to show my faith, but I believe the answer should come when we die.

[Johan Liebert]

I don't believe in any God being existent because there's no proof, and if there were a God, the pain and hatred in this world wouldn't overshadow the goodness. In other words, things would be A LOT more balanced. Honestly, at times, I get mad when someone survives a life-threatening event and says, "God saved me." I want to ask them, "Then why didn't he save the teenagers who killed themselves or the children who died of hunger or abuse?" The ignorance that follows those who are very religious is unbelievably frustrating. I guess most people must believe in something, real or not, to help them get through stressful times in their lives. 

 

I'm sorry; I just needed to let that out.

[Dad]

I don't believe in any God being existent because there's no proof, and if there were a God, the pain and hatred in this world wouldn't overshadow the goodness. In other words, things would be A LOT more balanced. Honestly, at times, I get mad when someone survives a life-threatening event and says, "God saved me." I want to ask them, "Then why didn't he save the teenagers who killed themselves or the children who died of hunger or abuse?" The ignorance that follows those who are very religious is unbelievably frustrating. I guess most people must believe in something, real or not, to help them get through stressful times in their lives. 

 

I'm sorry; I just needed to let that out.

 

Perhaps we should look at this from a point that makes sense.  Have you ever injured yourself as a child?  Have you ever been sick?  As far as I know, a disease like cancer or an infection like poison ivy doesn't stem from religion.  It's one of those things that occur of our own fault.  And from what little I understand (as often as I have read the Bible) God has given us free will.  If hatred is in your heart or someone else's, it's not God's fault.  Perhaps they were raised to hate someone else, or be impartial towards them.  But to say God is at fault for the evil in the world is, just as you said, fairly ignorant.

 

It's like blaming your mother and father for you not going to school and getting suspended, or you not showing up at work and getting fired.  And though I touched on proof (though I seriously doubt your read through the topic, because basically everything you're bashing was already discussed and approached in a more sensible and reasonable manner), I'll say it again.  We don't have proof, but neither does anyone else.  I don't think you actually have witnessed Christianity so much as you have witnessed extremism.  And to bash (yes, bash) a person because of their faith without knowing who they are or what they are going through (regardless of the deity they believe in, the person they praise, or the god they worship) is not fair.

 

Christ didn't teach me to hate.  And I don't.  Though if you're frustrated with those people who show up to your door every Saturday morning, I feel you.  I don't like them either.  But that's their thing, and I'm not gonna be an jabroni and shut em out.  Just tell em I'm not interested.

[Johan Liebert]

Perhaps we should look at this from a point that makes sense.  Have you ever injured yourself as a child?  Have you ever been sick?  As far as I know, a disease like cancer or an infection like poison ivy doesn't stem from religion.  It's one of those things that occur of our own fault.  And from what little I understand (as often as I have read the Bible) God has given us free will.  If hatred is in your heart or someone else's, it's not God's fault.  Perhaps they were raised to hate someone else, or be impartial towards them.  But to say God is at fault for the evil in the world is, just as you said, fairly ignorant.

 

It's like blaming your mother and father for you not going to school and getting suspended, or you not showing up at work and getting fired.  And though I touched on proof (though I seriously doubt your read through the topic, because basically everything you're bashing was already discussed and approached in a more sensible and reasonable manner), I'll say it again.  We don't have proof, but neither does anyone else.  I don't think you actually have witnessed Christianity so much as you have witnessed extremism.  And to bash (yes, bash) a person because of their faith without knowing who they are or what they are going through (regardless of the deity they believe in, the person they praise, or the god they worship) is not fair.

 

Christ didn't teach me to hate.  And I don't.  Though if you're frustrated with those people who show up to your door every Saturday morning, I feel you.  I don't like them either.  But that's their thing, and I'm not gonna be an a****** and shut em out.  Just tell em I'm not interested.

My intention was not to "bash" anyone. My main reason to not believe in a God is because, from what I've learned culturally, God is supposed to balance things here, and I see none of that. Then again, we, as humans, normally see the bad more often than the good, so my reason may not be fully valid. I'm not blaming God for how the world is; I'm using that as one of my primary reasons to not believe in such a thing. By the way, I should point out that I put time and effort to believe in Christianity, but religion isn't for me. Oh. Sorry; this kinda went all over the place. It's a bad habit of mine. I hope you at least understood my main points.

[Dad]

My intention was not to "bash" anyone. My main reason to not believe in a God is because, from what I've learned culturally, God is supposed to balance things here, and I see none of that. Then again, we, as humans, normally see the bad more often than the good, so my reason may not be fully valid. I'm not blaming God for how the world is; I'm using that as one of my primary reasons to not believe in such a thing. By the way, I should point out that I put time and effort to believe in Christianity, but religion isn't for me. Oh. Sorry; this kinda went all over the place. It's a bad habit of mine. I hope you at least understood my main points.

 

You cleared that right up, and I can say I fully understand it.  I think your reasoning is perfectly valid.  It's a reason shared by a lot of my friends who aren't Christian like myself.  And I'm more than okay with that.  Anyone who isn't okay with that, you shouldn't associate yourself with.  And thanks for a more cleaned up reply.  Well done.