God, Religion and higher powers

[~British Soul~]

Personally, I don't believe in god. I've always thought that anything that happens in our lives choices is down to us as humans. Of course I don't judge people if they belong to a religion or believe in god as it's their business not mine.

[Azure Wolf]

Except I'm not the one making the gigantic claim here. I'm not the one who has the burden of proof. Proof that you can't provide because it doesn't exist. If I were to make the claim that unicorns were real because they were in a 2000 or so year old book then ask you to prove that they didn't exist, I'd be crazy. Because you can't prove that unicorns ever existed since they didn't. God was a creation by humans to get other humans to do what they want. That's it. The idea of a God is as fantastical as, well, unicorns.

 

The difference between God and unicorns is that God isn't a material thing unlike what unicorns would have been. We can't prove something is real if it doesn't have properties we can detect. We can only rely on faith and believing that God exists, the proof people want doesn't exist.

 

 

So you don't wear mixed clothes, eat bacon, work on Sundays, etc.? and think that if a man rapes a woman she should have to marry him? Cause guess what, that's in the bible. 

 

There is a difference between what is in the bible and what Christians follow, though the difference isn't that large. Each branch of Christianity has it's own way of interpreting the bible, Catholics take it different than Protestants, then you have different branches of Protestantism taking it slightly differently. Christians can eat bacon or anything which was said we couldn't. The covenant that was made with is no longer. Clothes have no say on the matter any more and if a person is raped they are a victim and marriage shouldn't be forced if it happens unless the victim consents (which is unlikely). The laws past in the Old Testament aren't what matter anymore beside the 10 commandments.

 

The point on Sunday is a grey area. Some people have to work even if they don't agree with it in order to provide, others don't mind but are still Christian. The 4th commandment says this "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." As long as you remember the Sabbath (Sunday/Friday/Friday sundown - Saturday evening) and don't do anything unholy you aren't breaking it.

[Forest Fire]

That is not why I thought it was ignorant, I just didn't think you understood what the idea was. I don't see what would've made this into a flame war...

And the main point is to talk about god/religion isn't it? That's what I did....

 

It's not on people who believe in God to prove there is. If you say that, why not say that those who disbelief should come up with some solid proof? Hmm. How about the fact no one has ever seen, heard from, or had any contact from this being except in a 2000 year old book, except for (supposedly) like one or two people in recent memory, both of whom where raised in religious families (sometimes rehabilitated addicts claim to have seen God or been cured by God, but that doesn't really help your case)?

the literal only proof of this being existing are a 2000 year old book, rehabilitated addicts, and religious people. excuse while i go confess.

In my opinion saying that there is absolutely no God is a pretty big claim.

That doesn't suck for me. If that's your best response, which I truly hope it isn't, then you're just proving the childish point.

 

Wow, you actually got worse. Time for some devil's advocate.

 

If God or equivalent ideas have been around since the beginning of time, more or less... Would that not make YOUR claim the gigantic one?

 

You keep trying to pin the burden on proof on others who make a claim, Because their making the claim.. I'm express disbelief in the claim.. why should they not be the ones to provide proof? but you're the one demanding that your claim is right, I'm demanding that you provide proof. and that a lack of supplied proof 'sucks for you'. Well I admit that was unnecessary, the lack of proof for a God is really what's stopping your argument.

 

So how about looking in a mirror and undrstanding that your lack of belief in God is nothing but faith, just the same. Science = faith. m'k then.

I think the phrase "That's life" is applicable here. Life is neither good nor bad, it just is. What is done with that life is what counts. That's true.

Which is generally where religion comes in for me. Religion really was just a tool to get people to do better with their lives, so. A way of living that strives to make the most out of the life that is given to us. You can make the most of your life without religion telling you to, but ok.

Even if there is no God that doesn't mean all things "godly" are wrong.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Lack of easily given proof is not proof against something.

 

 

The difference between God and unicorns is that God isn't a material thing unlike what unicorns would have been. We can't prove something is real if it doesn't have properties we can detect. We can only rely on faith and believing that God exists, the proof people want doesn't exist.

Also this.

 

By the way, please roll back the attitude a smidgen. Not helping really.

[Blake]

See, you spout the same thing over and over and don't listen.

 

Science can't prove God doesn't exist. It can't prove God DOES exist. Either way, it's a matter of faith.

 

You can tell yourself you're more 'logical' or 'higher thinking', but it's no different. It's a matter of beliefs.

 

You are the one submtting a claim. The claim that the belief in God or equivalent is unfounded. You are as much responsible for 'proof' as they are, except the people who blieve in God admit there is no proof, and it is only by faith that they believe such. However, you demand proof, which only serves that you don't have any evidence to support your point or break down otehrs. Only half-ased logic.

 

I'm not telling you to convrt right this minute. Merely pointing out that you demand something that you, yourself, cannot supply, and also just try to redirect the points. If you have nothing genuine to offer, don't offer shoddy logic to what was an otehrwise fine discussion.

 

Lack of proof is not going to bolster your argument.

[ihop]

 

Religion really was just a tool to get people to do better with their lives, so. 

 

 

 

If that's all it is then that sounds like a pretty good thing to me.

 

And ffs, stop replying to people within their quote, it makes it really difficult to read and even more difficult to quote.

[Tourmaline]

The truth is that people who hate religion and God are mediocre in intelligence at best. The smartest people in the world were always God apologists because they understood God in ways that were beyond religion that most people would be far too stupid to understand.

[Dad]

 

 

Religion is about faith. Believing. You can't demand proof of that, it's illogical. No one worth their stock claims they can prove God. Sucks for you then. 

Demanding proof just comes across as a childish means to not defend your point well enough Except I'm not the one making the gigantic claim here. I'm not the one who has the burden of proof. Proof that you can't provide because it doesn't exist. If I were to make the claim that unicorns were real because they were in a 2000 or so year old book then ask you to prove that they didn't exist, I'd be crazy. Because you can't prove that unicorns ever existed since they didn't. God was a creation by humans to get other humans to do what they want. That's it. The idea of a God is as fantastical as, well, unicorns. 

I had the same problem with the OP citing a lack of proof, but they didn't do it with fangs bared.

I believe in god, i find it hard not to. The alternative of not knowing where im from or believing in the consistently changing scientific beliefs is something i wouldnt like to have to do. I try to keep up the standards of the bible at all times, So you don't wear mixed clothes, eat bacon, work on Sundays, etc.? and think that if a man rapes a woman she should have to marry him? Cause guess what, that's in the bible. I believe that, even if it isnt true in someone else's eyes, it doesnt mean the standards dont make me a better person (well, not in a stuck-up "Im better than you," kind of way, but you get what i mean).
Also, i dont like how people are so un-accepting in general (my school) and stuff, they think they are right and that's that, this world is open, and im not gonna judge you for what you believe.

 

 

Let's look at the first point.  Belief.  What is belief based on?  Really, if it can be accurately described, a feeling.  Something in your gut.  Something tells you, "this is right, this is wrong, this is what I want" etc.  If I asked you why you walked away from a man in a trench coat who offered you candy, and you told me, "I just had a bad feeling", I'd believe you.  That's your choice.  That is your right.  And if I asked you to provide factual evidence that your belief was accurate, I'd look like a jerk.  Not because you can or cannot, but because I've shoved your personal feelings, your own thoughts, and your private will down your throat, and said, "either show me you're right, or shut up".  That's not cool.  And whether or not you believe or don't believe in God is your choice.  No one should be forced to prove to you or vice versa that God does or does not exist.  It is inherently impossible.

 

Secondly.  This "claim" thing.  Again, we refer back to belief.  Because I'm not making a claim here, when I say I believe and love God.  I'm sharing my what's in my heart, on my mind, and what my gut is telling me.  "Sucks for you" is not a valid argument.  It's a defensive posture.  I'm not sure why you're bracing yourself on a wall here, simply because someone thinks differently from you.  "I'm not here to talk about his facial features, or here to convert atheists into believers.  I'm just trying to say the way school needs teachers, the way Kathie Lee needed Regis, that's the way I need Jesus."  And for reference, there is physical evidence of a man named Jesus lived in Nazareth.  Here's one I was pointed to by a trusted, and agnostic, friend.  That's just for fun.

 

As far as citing the old Testament, and Christian who knows their stuff can tell you it's practically irrelevant.  All of this rape stuff, Sunday stuff, mixed clothes stuff.  You know that was done away with, right?  Hebrews 8:13.  Jesus made a New Covenant.  He disregarded the old ways and made everything anew.  Where we love everyone, we harm no one, and we treat each other with kindness.  While I don't expect everyone I know to be more chipper than wood--and I can certainly say I've met some terrible Christians and even worse human beings--you can't let one argument speak for the entire discussion  You can't let one bad apple ruin the bunch.  Every good atheist or agnostic person won't be judged by me.  Neither will the ones who are "bad" or just rude in general.  Because they're people.  And they are one in the same to me.

 

 

 

That is not why I thought it was ignorant, I just didn't think you understood what the idea was. I don't see what would've made this into a flame war...
And the main point is to talk about god/religion isn't it? That's what I did....

It's not on people who believe in God to prove there is. If you say that, why not say that those who disbelief should come up with some solid proof? Hmm. How about the fact no one has ever seen, heard from, or had any contact from this being except in a 2000 year old book, except for (supposedly) like one or two people in recent memory, both of whom where raised in religious families (sometimes rehabilitated addicts claim to have seen God or been cured by God, but that doesn't really help your case)? 
the literal only proof of this being existing are a 2000 year old book, rehabilitated addicts, and religious people. excuse while i go confess. 
In my opinion saying that there is absolutely no God is a pretty big claim.

That doesn't suck for me. If that's your best response, which I truly hope it isn't, then you're just proving the childish point.

Wow, you actually got worse. Time for some devil's advocate.

If God or equivalent ideas have been around since the beginning of time, more or less... Would that not make YOUR claim the gigantic one?

You keep trying to pin the burden on proof on others who make a claim, Because their making the claim.. I'm express disbelief in the claim.. why should they not be the ones to provide proof? but you're the one demanding that your claim is right, I'm demanding that you provide proof. and that a lack of supplied proof 'sucks for you'. Well I admit that was unnecessary, the lack of proof for a God is really what's stopping your argument. 

So how about looking in a mirror and undrstanding that your lack of belief in God is nothing but faith, just the same. Science = faith. m'k then.

I think the phrase "That's life" is applicable here. Life is neither good nor bad, it just is. What is done with that life is what counts. That's true.
Which is generally where religion comes in for me. Religion really was just a tool to get people to do better with their lives, so. A way of living that strives to make the most out of the life that is given to us. You can make the most of your life without religion telling you to, but ok. 
Even if there is no God that doesn't mean all things "godly" are wrong.

 

This new point I won't carry on too much.  I'll just refer to my earlier posted link.  Again, this isn't a find of God per say (though Jesus is God, but these things are kinda confusing sometimes, so I'll move on).  It's more of a "well, there is something out there that shows signs of Christ and the like".  It's not cold, hard evidence, but it's there.

 

I talked about proof already, so I'll skip the following point as well.

 

And no, you already know and understand that science is not equivalent to faith.  But did you know some science started with the church?  Not all of it, but plenty of science was used and still is used by the church.  The difference is, we don't use it to prove or disprove God.  That's. . . scientifically impossible.

 

And lastly, you can make the most out of life without religion.  Because religion is a choice.  A belief.  Not a fact.  But something I hold onto dearly.  And that won't change for me.  And I hope that your personal beliefs remain strong with you as well.  But I also hope you don't try to berate and belittle someone because of their beliefs.  That's unfair, and I hope no one does that to you either.

[Goose]

I think being areligious should be more of a thing. I just don't care.

[Forest Fire]

Ok Hi I'm Dad. That's awesome and all, but.. I'm gonna go ahead and address some things. No offense to you or your awesome point.

 

The truth is that people who hate religion and God are mediocre in intelligence at best.

Right. I am, as far as I know, one of the only atheists in my school. I'm in the advanced math program. that's definitely mediocrity there people.

 

Merely pointing out that you demand something that you, yourself, cannot supply

It's hard to provide proof that something that doesn't exist doesn't exist, since it supposedly isn't material. but here it is again: Hmm. How about the fact no one has ever seen, heard from, or had any contact from this being except in a 2000 year old book, except for (supposedly) like one or two people in recent memory, both of whom where raised in religious families (sometimes rehabilitated addicts claim to have seen God or been cured by God, but that doesn't really help your case)?

the literal only proof of this being existing are a 2000 year old book, rehabilitated addicts, and religious people.

 

and also just try to redirect the points. If you have nothing genuine to offer, don't offer shoddy logic to what was an otherwise fine discussion.

Shody logic is now: Something that can't be proven to exist should not be believed to exist. m'k.

 

Lack of proof is not going to bolster your argument.

Nor does it bolster yours.

 

If that's all it is then that sounds like a pretty good thing to me.

 

And ffs, stop replying to people within their quote, it makes it really difficult to read and even more difficult to quote.

I never said it was bad, just that I didn't believe in it. the only thing I claimed to be bad was God. He 1) messed up by making us. just look at what we're doing to the planet and to ourselves. 2) could have made a better world by simply not creating so many bad things in it.

[mshends]

The truth is that people who hate religion and God are mediocre in intelligence at best. The smartest people in the world were always God apologists because they understood God in ways that were beyond religion that most people would be far too stupid to understand.

That statement is not really that accurate, just as there are dumb atheist, there are also intelligent people who dislike God (that also apply to all believers as well)

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

It's hard to provide proof that something that doesn't exist doesn't exist, since it supposedly isn't material. but here it is again: Hmm. How about the fact no one has ever seen, heard from, or had any contact from this being except in a 2000 year old book, except for (supposedly) like one or two people in recent memory, both of whom where raised in religious families (sometimes rehabilitated addicts claim to have seen God or been cured by God, but that doesn't really help your case)?

the literal only proof of this being existing are a 2000 year old book, rehabilitated addicts, and religious people.

Again, lack of easily given proof is not proof against something.

I don't get why you're saying "There's no proof" as proof for it not existing, since that would mean that your only proof is lack of proof, which means you have a lack of proof as well. A never ending cycle.

[Thar]

God to me is just a character in folklore, just like the bible is another piece of literature on the bookshelf.

 

I'm not against religion in any sense. I'm just indifferent to it. People can believe what they want, but defending it is stupid. It's like when someone calls you a poopface in the parking lot at Walmart and you respond by saying poop is good for your immune system or some sheet (no pun intended.)

[.Rai]

Faith is pretty much a universal concept for humanity. It has no connotations to God, no connotations to religion, but merely what you may want to call 'a will to live', I guess.

 

People interpret faith in different ways. You might see it as a higher entity, and that's fine. You might not, and that's okay. I don't believe in a higher entity such as God myself, because I can't really do anything about it either way. I certainly don't believe in the Abrahamic God: mostly because I've never felt the need to from my life experiences, and the concept of a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God doesn't resonate with me (I think that feels too anthropomorphised and human-centric for an interpretation of faith). But everyone's religious in some way, if you consider religion the act of having faith.

 

Organised religion is an entirely different debate that I probably won't wade into. I do agree with those in this thread saying that they're indifferent towards religion though.

[Tourmaline]

That statement is not really that accurate, just as there are dumb atheist, there are also intelligent people who dislike God (that also apply to all believers as well)

No. Anybody who is of notable intelligence would know that God is not in any way a religious entity and would not judge the entity, especially not through the diary character with the same name.

 

Also Forest Fire: you're actually just a dumb/average atheist like most of them are. Especially given how basic and irrelevant your replies are to the true nature of God. Hating the character is just hating something else with the same name. Nobody smart believes in God the same way that is stereotypical either.

[Dad]

I think, for lack of it being said, it's kinda messed up that so many good Christians who actually behave like Christ are overshadowed by the bigoted, shallow, one-track-mind people who pick and choose what Christ said, and what they want to live by.  It's not fair to you, it's not fair to us.  And it's definitely not fair to themselves either.

[Forest Fire]

Also Forest Fire: you're actually just a dumb/average atheist like most of them are. Especially given how basic and irrelevant your replies are to the true nature of God. Hating the character is just hating something else with the same name. Nobody smart believes in God the same way that is stereotypical either.

funk yourself, okay? I don't need to be writing havard essays to answer every damn point you funking jabroni.

[ihop]

savage

[.Rai]

...Aaaand, calm.

 

Discussion probably should stick to being non-flamey, thanks! And, spam. No spam, cheers.

[Tourmaline]

f*** yourself, okay? I don't need to be writing havard essays to answer every damn point you f***ing a******.

See? I managed to out your true, hateful nature just by bluffing. You're an angry buffoon and nothing more, just like the other atheists who hate religion with no good reason even though so many of them are good people.

 

(I feel like Jotaro)

[Aix]

I would love it if anyone can say anything about what I say here, or point out any logical errors. I am completely open to things that would change my viewpoint. I do not claim to be any sort of philosopher, these are merely my own random (shower) thoughts which I have hastily organized and attempted to put into words. I'm sure there are many better explanation of these ideas out there.

 

It cannot be proven whether or not there is a higher power, however the burden of proof lies on the claim. While Occam's razor (the principle to select the hypothesis with the least assumptions made) is nowhere perfect, it is better from a logical standpoint than to make assumptions with little to no solid evidence. If you don't know, it is silly to make something up. I keep an open mind and admit that I cannot say if a higher power exists. In fact, I'd very much like there to be a higher power, but I won't delude myself into thinking that there is one. Skepticism would be the term that describes my approach, I would rather question everything that I remember to and care enough about to question than to hold onto possibly incorrect beliefs. This is not just because such a mindset I believe to be progressive, but also because as far as I can tell, it is (without outside factors) correct (I can try to elaborate and explain if asked).

 

I'd like to now point out that much of the supposed evidence people have to supernatural occurrences can be attributed to your imagination or confirmation bias. It cannot be said for sure that these are the causes of it. Memory is NOT certain, like at all, especially in times of emotional turmoil where most people seem to witness miracles of a higher power. In addition, wishful thinking can be very powerful in influencing your beliefs, and your beliefs will be constantly "confirmed" with confirmation bias. People have been making up explanations for things and creating superstitions since forever. Of course, this works both ways in proving and disproving the supernatural, but it works in disproving the supernatural much less. This also not proof that the supernatural does not exist, merely an alternate explanation that actually conforms with what we do know.

 

Rather than going after any individual religion, I will next explain why I do not believe in an omnipotent and benevolent god at all. Here is a quote explaining the dilemma: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

 

I believe in God and love Him wholeheartedly. Whenever I'm at my lowest, a little voice leads me where I need to be, even if I don't know it. Like leading me to Bree, who I suddenly realized I felt true love for a week before I told her I had a "crush" on her, when she was going to kill herself soon after had I not.

 

He's always been there when I needed Him most. Even when I begged, almost daily, to have never been born.

Have you considered that it is merely luck and bias (as I have noted in the above paragraphs) that lead you to this conclusion? I also ask, why has he decided to help you and neglected so many others? These are just questions I have, and keeping an open mind is important. Perhaps he does help everyone, but everyone needs different amounts of help and it is ridiculous to not give that adequate amount.

 

Nah, my point is God doesn't meddle in our affairs. Humanity's ultimately responsible for everything right and wrong in the world.

Here is where I'm going to get especially controversial. I believe in adequate determinism, and others would explain what it is far better than I can. People and their decisions are completely shaped by luck, how they were born, and their environment. This does not mean that in our society people should not be held accountable for their actions, because this is a system which upholds our social order and morals. However, from the perspective of an omnipotent God, this means that people really aren't responsible for what they do, this means that Good and Evil do not exist, and "evil" people are merely like a disease or natural disaster - destructive, but aren't to be blamed.

As a Christian, I think that it doesn't matter if you try to prove it wrong, because I'm just going to disregard you and not listen to you, but I'm not the kind of Christian to try and turn you. I can't exactly do that if your canvas isn't blank. If you see what the supposed "truth" is, good for you, but I see what my supposed "truth" is, and I'm not letting another painter wipe that progress.

This sort of close-mindedness is destructive towards progress. You are completely refusing the possibility that you may be wrong.

The truth is that people who hate religion and God are mediocre in intelligence at best. The smartest people in the world were always God apologists because they understood God in ways that were beyond religion that most people would be far too stupid to understand.

There are many who hate religion because of the detrimental effects it has had on our world. For the latter part, I think you are completely changing the definition of God. Can that even be called God? Most of the time, we are referring to the conventional definition of God, some sort of intelligent higher entity.

 

Now, everyone hold your breath because I will give my opinion on faith. Faith has its good and bad points, and in a way, it is a crutch. Faith as a way of knowing is merely a shortcut, similar in how I hold faith in my math and physics formulae instead of going about the long way to calculate something (wait, this might be a bad analogy). You walk away from the shady man holding candy because it is more convenient to use faith this way and it doesn't actually matter if you were wrong. You hold faith in your doctor because you usually don't need to go questioning his credentials. Holding religious faith has the potential to be good or bad. Faith can definitely help your psychological state if you need it, and faith causes the placebo effect (which results in many people thinking some higher being intervened). On the other hand, faith closes your mind. I like quotes, so here's another quote I've come across. "With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." You can claim that religion is not inherently bad by quoting all the good religious people, however it is only because of faith that terrorists murder, as they hold faith in what they are doing is good. I believe that eventually, we will no longer need the psychological benefits of faith, and thus religion will lose its place in our society.

[mshends]

No. Anybody who is of notable intelligence would know that God is not in any way a religious entity and would not judge the entity, especially not through the diary character with the same name.

TBH I don't really think hating or loving a 'god' makes a person more intelligent or dumber. Beliving a god is mainly based on past experience the person have and other outside factors. Well yeah there are a lot of dumb atheists out there, there are also doctors, lawyers, politician who just find it a hard time beliving god, this doesn't make them dumb at all.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Oy vey.

Anyway, I just want to add one thing in response to Aix's tl;bdr (too long but did read)

 

One could be of the perspective that burden of proof lies on non-believers, for they are the ones claiming it does not exist. From my point of view that's the real "claim" here.

[Forest Fire]

Forest, you demanding the people who believe in god need to cough up proof is no better than them telling you that you need to get down on your knees and pray before every meal and go to church every Sunday.  The entire point of faith is that you don't need proof; I gave up on any god out there long ago and I still understand that.  How you're in an advanced math program and yet are still unable to grasp the very simple definition of faith baffles me.  Then again, I was never good at math; different people are just good at different things I suppose.

 

You luckily saved me the effort of having to write a paragraph or two for every point you made since you've only really made one and that is "I want proof that god exists."  Well, if you're atheist...why the f*** would you of all people be demanding proof?  You sure you want this?  Well, if you insist...

 

Have at it.

You laughed, admit it.

Now then, what you're doing offends me equally as much as a Christian saying "well you can't do this this and this because that's what my faith says; yours is irrelevant"; it's rude, unaccepting, and unfair.  Stop making demands that don't even matter, get out of this thread, and have a nice cold glass of Shut The f*** Up, compliments of your friendly neighborhood Yui.  Now then the good doge said no flame so give me a couple warnings points if you want/need to; I was just not posting this cuz CowCow said not to cuz we were being so civil and polite.

1) yes, yes i did laugh #nightisgod.

2) i want the proof because maybe i want there to be a god. i don't know. maybe i'd rather think that there's someone to blame for the fact that my mother died when i was 10.

3) i'm sorry for offending anyone. i need to watch my words, i know.

4) can someone warn that f'er Hina?

[.Rai]

The burden of proof lies to those who wish to prove it either way. There exists those in both atheists and theists.