Can Polls be Discussed Again?

[Nicο]

I mean, when you really think about it, there have been a lot of tournaments wanting to be done. So much so, that since that isn't Poll's only job, I was advised to start one in Misc. Well, more so because it was thought of as not being serious enough, but a decent number of the posts kind of are, except for maybe a little more than half of them. Okay so that was bad.

 

But it was brought up that Polls should be renamed to Tournaments, with Misc and General getting the other polls depending on what they are. We could also just add a sub-sub-section, if that is possible. 

 

Even if we just disregard all that, there is still the post count issue. Posts in Polls are sometimes still not as long as they should be, even though they probably only need a few more words. I sometimes do it without thinking, myself. So please give me my first warn ever (as far as I know). Since that last thread that was made, which I only voted in the poll of I've pretty much changed my mind, that it probably should be disabled again. By the way, if any mod thinks the poll was a good idea, maybe you can add one to this, if you can. I don't know if it's really needed. Anyway, I bring this up only because in an attempt not to clog one section, I've pretty much clogged another. Even though for Misc it shouldn't matter, since it's supposed to be spammy, if it was in polls I probably would have done the much smarter thing and taken it much slower, but since it was an option that was technically within rules, I dun goofed. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

First, I agree with the idea of separating Tournaments and one-off polls to make things easier. Just gotta figure out what counts as a tournament.

 

As for post count. It's a non-issue, it never was and it shouldn't be. It's always had post count, for a short time a mod decided to turn it off and then there was a mod discussion and it was turned back on.

 

Now. I'm getting sick and tired of people saying it's pointless. Because as been said so many times now it's simple enough to just vote if you don't have anything else to say. You don't need to say "Go ____" because we see that with the vote.

It's a silly argument to say it shouldn't have post count because of that. I mean take a look through General, there's still spam in there and people don't say "Well since people spam there we should turn off post count"

 

/end rant

[Nicο]

Oh yeah. Never mind the post count thing, then. Since it's true that 

 

Black, that's the entire damn site. 

:o

 

But there wasn't just a mod discussion, that's why I say to bring it up again. I think the best idea would be to just separate things.

[Aix]

Polls are a place where one is especially tempted to spam. Just because you don't have to verbalize your cheers doesn't mean you don't want to. Imagine some sort of event where you submit a ballot to cheer for your favorite instead of going crazy in the audience stands.

[Nicο]

Polls are a place where one is especially tempted to spam. Just because you don't have to verbalize your cheers doesn't mean you don't want to. Imagine some sort of event where you submit a ballot to cheer for your favorite instead of going crazy in the audience stands.

Is it wrong that I see that as too much temptation to keep it enabled or am I mistaken? Either way, I think it would be good to hear some more opinions again...

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Polls are a place where one is especially tempted to spam. Just because you don't have to verbalize your cheers doesn't mean you don't want to. Imagine some sort of event where you submit a ballot to cheer for your favorite instead of going crazy in the audience stands.

You realize you're basically saying "It's tempting to spam so let them spam" I mean obviously people in General want to post not serious/off-topic jokes/images/videos. They do it almost every day. So would you say that they should be allowed to because it's tempting?

Your metaphor sounds good at first but that's all it is, a metaphor. It doesn't really work in context. Because of the above statement.

I'm an example of how you can cheer for your favorite while making a not-spam (and by not-spam I'm going off General standards) post.

[Blake]

You realize you're basically saying "It's tempting to spam so let them spam" I mean obviously people in General want to post not serious/off-topic jokes/images/videos. They do it almost every day. So would you say that they should be allowed to because it's tempting?
Your metaphor sounds good at first but that's all it is, a metaphor. It doesn't really work in context. Because of the above statement.
I'm an example of how you can cheer for your favorite while making a not-spam (and by not-spam I'm going off General standards) post.

Congratulations. You have some strange sense of rightness for... posting better than other people in a fun section?

Beyond GMV votes, there's no reason to impose that on others. It's illogical. If 'spam' is a problem, turn off post count, don't tell people how to enjoy what they do.

The thing is, you treat polls as if it's something akin to general, when it is infinitely more comparable to games, clubs, or misc. It's a reason to unite under some sort of fandom or group and (hopefully) have fun with it, not to discuss at length. We have other sections meant for that sort of thing, and it's not as if opinion polls can't be posted in their own sections. VG, A/M, CW, General, TCG, etc. can easily have polls, as the software allows.

The only way to argue that polls is something akin to sections such as I mentioned... is to restrict poll making capabilities to the Polls section.

I'm not saying "yes, turn off post count". I'm saying that trying to force 'quality' in polls is asinin, and if you care about spam and post count interactions, jsut remove the post count instead of forcing others to post like you.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Congratulations. You have some strange sense of rightness for... posting better than other people in a fun section?

Beyond GMV votes, there's no reason to impose that on others. It's illogical. If 'spam' is a problem, turn off post count, don't tell people how to enjoy what they do.

The thing is, you treat polls as if it's something akin to general, when it is infinitely more comparable to games, clubs, or misc. It's a reason to unite under some sort of fandom or group and (hopefully) have fun with it, not to discuss at length. We have other sections meant for that sort of thing, and it's not as if opinion polls can't be posted in their own sections. VG, A/M, CW, General, TCG, etc. can easily have polls, as the software allows.

The only way to argue that polls is something akin to sections such as I mentioned... is to restrict poll making capabilities to the Polls section.

I'm not saying "yes, turn off post count". I'm saying that trying to force 'quality' in polls is asinin, and if you care about spam and post count interactions, jsut remove the post count instead of forcing others to post like you.

Thanks for assuming I have a "sense of rightness". I'm just showing that it is clearly possible to not spam and still cheer. But go on and mock me if you want.

 

But why do you say that? You just are claiming it's more comparable. I see it being more comparable to General, or anime, or Video Games. Because in those sections you can discuss similar things that are posted in Polls.

And them being in Polls help keep those sections (which can be quite active) from being crowded. Think of it as an extension of those sections and that might help.

 

Actually you are saying turn off post count. Every section that has post count have rules against Spam. So if you say that you might as well remove post count if spam is the "only thing I care about" then remove it for every section.

[Blake]

Remove it for every section? Sure thing. I really don't care. I won't object, so your hyperbole has no merit.

 

No one has discussions in polls. It's never used for such. As I said, unless the ability to make polls is limited TO Polls, there's no true point to it as a section akin to General. Why? You can host polls there for the same purpose, and, well... People do exactly that. I've yet to truly see a poll used as a discussion as opposed to a silly fun section, at least, not in a way that wouldn't fit better into its respective section. Even then, they more often go in their respective sections.

 

Polls is very much a "tournament" section as-is, and it's not a discussion section. It is, without blinders on, like misc, games, or Clubs. You can come together and have fun, but no one really uses it for genuine discussion, at least not anymore.

 

The tournaments don't really garner discussion, and the polls that do are more often found in their respective section instead of the hodgepodge that sections like Clubs, Misc, and sometimes games offers.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Remove it for every section? Sure thing. I really don't care. I won't object, so your hyperbole has no merit.

 

No one has discussions in polls. It's never used for such. As I said, unless the ability to make polls is limited TO Polls, there's no true point to it as a section akin to General. Why? You can host polls there for the same purpose, and, well... People do exactly that. I've yet to truly see a poll used as a discussion as opposed to a silly fun section, at least, not in a way that wouldn't fit better into its respective section. Even then, they more often go in their respective sections.

 

Polls is very much a "tournament" section as-is, and it's not a discussion section. It is, without blinders on, like misc, games, or Clubs. You can come together and have fun, but no one really uses it for genuine discussion, at least not anymore.

 

The tournaments don't really garner discussion, and the polls that do are more often found in their respective section instead of the hodgepodge that sections like Clubs, Misc, and sometimes games offers.

"No one has discussions in polls" I've linked in the original thread many examples in other sections of people just listing things and not actually discussing.

And yes, you're literally ignoring my post aren't you?

 

And them being in Polls help keep those sections (which can be quite active) from being crowded. Think of it as an extension of those sections and that might help.

[Blake]

"No one has discussions in polls" I've linked in the original thread many examples in other sections of people just listing things and not actually discussing.

And yes, you're literally ignoring my post aren't you?

You'v done no such thing. You showed me 3-4 posts of talking, akin to clubs, moreso than any true conversation. I can't remember one legitimate thing you linked, and saying "I provided evidence" is not the same as providing it.

 

I'm not ignoring, I jsut felt it answered itself if you thought critically about i. You're assuming that a single poll thread every once in a while is going to clog up an entire section? ven if it's often, that's more discussion, no clog, unless it turns into an overblown tournament, which is the only thing that clogs "polls" in the first place.

 

EDIT: Actually, before your rebuttal, allow me to rephrase, since I realized you're taking advantage of my phrasing coming across as hyperbole, once more.

 

On the whole, polls are not used for discussions. Yes, they can be. Any part of the site can be. However, polls are not bound by software to Polls... and the content is equally unbound, as such. Given that it is largely used akin to misc, as that is the general purpose it has settled in to. I've seen genuine discussions in Misc. and Clubs, too... But would ou argue their post count come back? I'd think not, especially misc, but if you can argue for Polls' postcount, please do present an argument for Clubs, as well.

[J-Max]

You can't deny that Polls have seen a bit of a increase in activity since Post Count was enabled, although I disagree with the fact that a Member has to fully explain their vote if they wish to post about it.

By all means doisable Post Count again but in doing this, the amount of attention in the section may drop a bit.

[Blake]

You can't deny that Polls have seen a bit of a increase in activity since Post Count was enabled, although I disagree with the fact that a Member has to fully explain their vote if they wish to post about it.

By all means doisable Post Count again but in doing this, the amount of attention in the section may drop a bit.

If attention was garnered over post count (please note that post count was only DISabled for a short, short while. Like a day or so at most?), then the attention isn't exacly garneredby the section. Just saying.

[Fusion X. Denver]

And them being in Polls help keep those sections (which can be quite active) from being crowded. Think of it as an extension of those sections and that might help.

Personally, I disagree. A&M, VG, TV and General all have page 1's that still have threads from May. I don't think a couple of polls in each section will crowd things up. It's not like people will rush to go post polls in those sections at once.

On the offhand chance someone goes poll-crazy in a section, then a Mod can step in.

 

I'll always prefer post count over no post count, but I do pretty much agree with Black that Polls posts are similar to Misc/Games content-wise. And I wouldn't go changing that, it's fine the way it is.

 

Anyways, I agree with OP. Turn Polls into Tournaments and let general polls be posted in whatever section's appropriate to its subject matter.

[Nicο]

Sorry Cow, but after hearing your different opinions, remembering some things, knowing a decent amount about the forum, and checking a couple threads, the opinion I've formed that will more than likely stay a good while after actually thinking about it, is more on the side of disable again. I mean, you're not wrong on some things, but while it may be true that every section may have some spam be let through, there's still very rarely any actual discussion in Polls. That's a lot more than I can say for those other sections, that actually do have discussion in most of their threads. 

 

Regarding potential lack of activity... yeah, what Black said. Not to mention, if it's being used more for tournaments now, just seems to me like if there was a time when it had some discussion going, it's just not enough anymore. Wait... Not like all of this wasn't already said, but at least I actually thought about why I changed my opinion from that other time. Still, very much up to the mods. 

[Tourmaline]

Disable or enable post count totally. Emotional arguing about it is idiotic.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Okay first, Black, please don’t claim I’m “taking advantage of your phrasing”. I’m just saying what I think makes sense. If I seem to take advantage of your phrasing then that’s because I don’t think what you said makes sense. Regardless of what you meant, if I read something I don’t agree with I’ll point out why I don’t agree. I don’t appreciate being made out to be some sort of manipulator.

Look at Polls right now and tell me the stuff that is in it, and about to be in it, wouldn’t clog any section up. It’s not just one or two here or there in those cases. (Which is why I agreed with the Tournament section idea Nico/Fusion had, in my first post).

Polls can be used for discussion.

Other sections with post count can have many threads that are just “Listing off things” with little to no discussion.

Just because it’s not always a discussion heavy area doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be kept from turning into “I vote X” or “Woooo X” or “spam joke image”.

I mean, if you think about it there’s that stuff in all the other sections on occasion and they’re not allowed. So what makes Polls a section where it should be allowed?
Because it’s similar to Misc? Not exactly. It’s quite similar to General in it’s purpose. See, Polls are mostly “Give your opinion on X”. Whereas General is “Give your opinion on X topic”.

Therefore I would say that Polls is more or less an extension of General and similar areas.

Putting Polls as Tournaments would make sense as it would solve the issue of “Well this random Poll could just go in General” as well as the “Well tournaments can crowd up a section.” But I see no reason not to allow post count and keep the spam to a minimum, like most of the sections of this site.

To me, “post count” is just a sign that says that you shouldn’t spam in the section.

I...honestly don’t see what else is to be said than that. If you don’t get what I mean then I’ll try and explain it better. But that’s basically how I see it. It could be that I’m not explaining it right. I’ve mentioned many times I’m not the best at explaining a point. Nothing against those with different opinions but this is just what seems to make most sense to me. (Just as whatever you think obviously would make most sense to you)
I mean, can you really say that an argument about post count is more deserving of a “post count” than giving your opinion on something/someone?

[Mugendramon]

Emotional arguing about it is idiotic.

[Blake]

Okay first, Black, please don’t claim I’m “taking advantage of your phrasing”. I’m just saying what I think makes sense. If I seem to take advantage of your phrasing then that’s because I don’t think what you said makes sense. Regardless of what you meant, if I read something I don’t agree with I’ll point out why I don’t agree. I don’t appreciate being made out to be some sort of manipulator.

I'm not making you out to be? It's only logical to use an opponent's misphrasing and the like against them. Nothing wrong with that, just acknowledging a weak point in my phrasing that you did take literally and/or take advantage of.

Look at Polls right now and tell me the stuff that is in it, and about to be in it, wouldn’t clog any section up. It’s not just one or two here or there in those cases. (Which is why I agreed with the Tournament section idea Nico/Fusion had, in my first post).

Hence why I skipped over that point you claimed that I ignored. You're not using critical thinking here.

A discussion poll isn't what appears in polls. It is, by large, tournies, which I made no attempt to deny. This is you treating what currently occurs in polls as the entirety of all poll threads, not what I'm saying. If anything, this bolsters my point that discussion poll threads don't happen in polls, but in sections that are more fine-tuned.

Polls can be used for discussion.

I don't think anyone has denied this. Doesn't make it the norm, especially given the current state, and, as such, you cannot use it as a true argument.

Other sections with post count can have many threads that are just “Listing off things” with little to no discussion.

As both I, and the mod team, have said to this argument... Report that thread. Don't use it to justify an argument later.

Just because it’s not always a discussion heavy area doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be kept from turning into “I vote X” or “Woooo X” or “spam joke image”.
I mean, if you think about it there’s that stuff in all the other sections on occasion and they’re not allowed. So what makes Polls a section where it should be allowed?

You should quit using that argument, yeah? You claim I ignore parts of your post, yet you keep citing GMV posts... Which I acknowledged aren't good. The image is a point that others don't seem to draw issue with... anywhere on the site, really. So you're just yelling the same thing over and over and stating 'spam image' despite that not being the common thought, when applied corrctly.

Because it’s similar to Misc? Not exactly. It’s quite similar to General in it’s purpose. See, Polls are mostly “Give your opinion on X”. Whereas General is “Give your opinion on X topic”.

And opinion threads in Misc are opinion threads. Semantics can be argued. The current usage of polls doesn't fit with the description you paint (or that it may be labeled with), it fits differently. "Intent in design means nothing if the impact is not the same."

Therefore I would say that Polls is more or less an extension of General and similar areas.

Fair enough, but do consider the views that have been stated in this thread, other than mine, and how Polls are now viewed.

Putting Polls as Tournaments would make sense as it would solve the issue of “Well this random Poll could just go in General” as well as the “Well tournaments can crowd up a section.” But I see no reason not to allow post count and keep the spam to a minimum, like most of the sections of this site.

To me, “post count” is just a sign that says that you shouldn’t spam in the section.

But that doesn't have anything to do with this. The posts in polls mostly fall under misc quality replies (not OPs, though the tournaments are hardly thought provoking pinnacles themselves, not that simpicity is bad), so keeping post count seems out of place. You could enforce standards of quality, but... for tournaments? Even the OPs leave a ton to be desired, as they're copy/paste with a (attempted) witty title on the poll itself, if deemed appropriate. Even an earlier(s) YMB had plot and the like added to the polls to liven them up and make them unique, but... nothing like that occurs. It's just a funsie section now, as opposed to the intent of being general with polls... Which was extremely redundant, itself.

I mean, can you really say that an argument about post count is more deserving of a “post count” than giving your opinion on something/someone?

Non-argument. C&S is neither here nor there, so don't divert points.

I...honestly don’t see what else is to be said than that. If you don’t get what I mean then I’ll try and explain it better. But that’s basically how I see it. It could be that I’m not explaining it right. I’ve mentioned many times I’m not the best at explaining a point. Nothing against those with different opinions but this is just what seems to make most sense to me. (Just as whatever you think obviously would make most sense to you)

You've also had people reply back with reasons. It doesn't matter what the intent of polls was, that is not the purpose it serves. Just like Clubs. It isn't discussion making on is own, though it can have discussions. It doesn't have much content in its OPs or replies. And it doesn't need to. It's a fun section for polls. Enforcing quality in a section that, to be true, is a giant GMV doesn't make sense. Your vote is your GMV, but beyond that, there's nothing wrong with posting an image or being silly.

Your ideal for the section and the reality are different. There's nothing wrong with enjoying Tournaments, but occasional discussion in the name of saying "no, you can't be silly or just post an image" doesn't make sense. The content is not enough to consistently encourage 'quality' posting, so almost all of it becomes spam. Even when stating why you voted... That's likely still spam.

"I voted for Joshua because of his fucking awesome hat!"

Is that spam? Or is that a quality post? I'd lean towards the former, but I see no problem with someone saying that in polls/tournaments.

[.Rai]

I've actually forgotten what change I made to Polls in the first place. I'll leave it as is for now, unless the system genuinely is a bit broken.

If anyone's willing to formalise what people want in a Tournament section, I can have a go at seeing if that's feasible.

[Fusion X. Denver]

I've actually forgotten what change I made to Polls in the first place. I'll leave it as is for now, unless the system genuinely is a bit broken.

If anyone's willing to formalise what people want in a Tournament section, I can have a go at seeing if that's feasible.

Maybe for sanity's sake, no more than 3-4 tournaments at a time? Not sure if that's a necessary concession or not, but if that happens, then the way people can "reserve" the next right to host their tourney is marking it on the calendar first.

And any given tourney should put out no more than 6-8 matches a day.

Otherwise, normal YCM rules apply and I think everything's covered?

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Maybe for sanity's sake, no more than 3-4 tournaments at a time? Not sure if that's a necessary concession or not, but if that happens, then the way people can "reserve" the next right to host their tourney is marking it on the calendar first.

And any given tourney should put out no more than 6-8 matches a day.

Otherwise, normal YCM rules apply and I think everything's covered?

I believe I actually originally stated (when this first came up) that one of the rules should be no more than 3. And yeah, same with the matches, I think I went with 6 but I don't remember.

So basically I agree 100% XD

Oh but we gotta figure out what defines a tournament too. Just to get a base idea.

Like, something that would take at least two days with the rule of 6-8 a day maybe?

[Fusion X. Denver]

I believe I actually originally stated (when this first came up) that one of the rules should be no more than 3. And yeah, same with the matches, I think I went with 6 but I don't remember.

So basically I agree 100% XD

Oh but we gotta figure out what defines a tournament too. Just to get a base idea.

Like, something that would take at least two days with the rule of 6-8 a day maybe?

I think what qualifies as a tourney is:

1. More than 1 round of matches

2. An overarching theme

To explain 2, I'd say all your Pokémon polls for best Gym Leader/Elite 4/etc would count as a tournament. Also because the winners from those matches came to face each other in an overall winner poll.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I think what qualifies as a tourney is:

1. More than 1 round of matches

2. An overarching theme

To explain 2, I'd say all your Pokémon polls for best Gym Leader/Elite 4/etc would count as a tournament. Also because the winners from those matches came to face each other in an overall winner poll.

I can agree on this. And yeah it is a tournament. I didn't state it as such at first cause I didn't think I'd be doing so many. XD But sounds good to me.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Disable or enable post count totally. Emotional arguing about it is idiotic.

 

It's actually a perfectly healthy and rational means of responding given a precedent with which one emotionally identifies, and the only way by which any sort of resolution can be achieved. To take an action affecting people without taking into account how they'd feel about it is idiotic as it only exacerbates any hard feelings that were there beforehand and does nothing to reconcile them, however trivial you or I might consider them. There is no shutting people's feelings up or purging the emotions in a discussion. Telling people to calm down because your emotional investments and priorities are different from theirs is the epitome of condescension.

 

As for my opinion on post count in Polls, I feel as though a "Polls section" is suspect to begin with when a poll can be incorporated into the framework of serious and frivolous light-hearted discussions. There's no reason we shouldn't just incorporate polls into General and Misc topics alike wherever they cold be applicable, that's why the function exists. A "Polls section" encourages polling for the sake of polling and discourages polls occurring organically in whatever context they're applicable.

 

This was further emphasized by the inane placement of "Debates" as a subsection of "Polls", inane because "Debates" wasn't about surveying YCM's position, they were about arguing for the sake of arguing which naturally repelled the less argumentative who would linger in "Polls" proper. The "Debates" section was basically the opposite of Misc/current polls, and a vehicle for emotionally charged venting about emotionally charged issues. IIRC it was shut down because people were flaming each other too much or "YCM couldn't handle it" or whatever, but the whole concept of the place was conducive to emotionally-charged venting to begin with and people went there with an understanding that the subsequent poster could rip them in half by any means necessary. The "Polls section" has been misused as a "Tournaments section" for quite some time now, and a "Tournaments section" should not be a subsection of "Polls" but a part or a subsection of Games because tournaments are games, as are polls for the sake of polling. If the issue is with "Games" being overcrowded and a subsection for a subsection not being possible, then "Tournaments" should still fall under the "Misc" umbrella because they are a separate framework in which members enter the section with an anticipation to participate in a different way than a sober discussion sanctioned in General, often tinged with competitive tendencies. "Debates" too, would have fallen under the "Misc" umbrella because it had intrinsically different expectations than General. "But Polaris…", an errant spectator might ask "are you seriously proposing that a member shouldn't even get post count credit for the time and effort put into the long-winded and ostentatious rants to put opponents in their place?" That's indeed what I'm proposing, as posturing for the sake of it is another one of those things that undermines rules set in place to protect people from such environments, and those who have an appetite for pissing contests and to flame and be flamed at are no holier than those who have an appetite for the visceral stimulus-driven macros and one-liners that propagate Misc, things that would otherwise be discarded as "spam" to preserve the integrity and innocence of General where people speak their mind to speak their mind and not be ranted at or flooded with cancerous viral imagery.

 

Proposals in summary:

 

-Since "Miscellaneous" proper currently caters to bold-faced spam rather than miscellany as the name would imply, it would be more accurately renamed "Free-for-All".  

-"Polls" should be abolished, there's only so much demand for zealous pollsters and those of us who remain can still integrate them elsewhere if it's their thing.

-"Tournaments" should be a subsection of Misc/"Free-for-All". Post count should be suspended as members are not contributing thoughts but participating in an interactive dimension akin to "Games".

-"Debates" should be revived as a subsection of "Free-for-All" under the name of "Heated Arguments". Here, post count and rules are suspended, spamming is discouraged if done intentionally to the undermine the section's purpose ("keep that s*** in Free-for-All proper"), but ultimately enforcement shouldn't be necessary as the section would set its own precedent and it's recreational to begin with.