(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 As I have said, I am aware that my opinion on Vanity's is not the popular one, and am totally fine with a ban considering that doing so is what the community wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireofDarkness Posted May 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 As I have said, I am aware that my opinion on Vanity's is not the popular one, and am totally fine with a ban considering that doing so is what the community wants. Very well. Also, I will mention it now, since apparently people are speaking Mathman at 2, I may put up a vote for such, but any quick thoughts or opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 To be honest, I don't get why it can't just be at 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darj Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 My argument is that Mathman could be used as a Armageddon replacement after it goes to 1 for keeping the mill toolbox more live. Granted, unlike Armageddon it is not as searchable plus lacks DARK support, but on the other hand it comes with that handy floaty effect, can trigger other stuff such as Felis, among other things, so I would rather keep it on check as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 However, unlike Armaknight, this is not searchable by RoTA, and, most importantly, is a level 3, meaning that many decks are kinda just stuck with it after using the effect. Armaknight, on the other hand, is a level 4, so if you control another level 4, you are then capable of summoning a wide variety of powerful r4 staples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireofDarkness Posted May 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 However, unlike Armaknight, this is not searchable by RoTA, and, most importantly, is a level 3, meaning that many decks are kinda just stuck with it after using the effect. Armaknight, on the other hand, is a level 4, so if you control another level 4, you are then capable of summoning a wide variety of powerful r4 staples. This is pretty much how I feel about it. Mathman certainly is a good card, but it doesn't have nearly the abilities Armageddon Knight has. In fact, I will go as far to say I don't plan on running it myself. Yes, you have Shaddolls, and yes, you have Felis, but the latter is very risk/reward. Outside of Shaddolls, drawing Felis is a pain, and you need a way to discard it to prevent it from just sitting there. The float effect is also rather meh, you don't have any guaranteed result or card you will get and it has to be destroyed by battle. Heck, Mystic Tomato has a better float effect than Mathman. On top of all of this, it isn't searchable. I don't see how much of a convincing substitute it is over Arma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lecc_XD Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Also something Important that no1 say already: "Math is when normal, Arma is when Summoned" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self-Destruct Button Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 About Equalizer Matrix: Didn't we agree one day that we won't put customs on the list, but instead nerf them so that they are fair at 3? Just because Konami creates op'd cards doesn't mean we should as well. Plus it could lead to a flood in broken staples, which really no one needs, so I'd say we alter the card and let it off the list. Will give my thoughs on some other stuff (like charge or lolchain) tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darj Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 This is pretty much how I feel about it. Mathman certainly is a good card, but it doesn't have nearly the abilities Armageddon Knight has. In fact, I will go as far to say I don't plan on running it myself. Yes, you have Shaddolls, and yes, you have Felis, but the latter is very risk/reward. Outside of Shaddolls, drawing Felis is a pain, and you need a way to discard it to prevent it from just sitting there. The float effect is also rather meh, you don't have any guaranteed result or card you will get and it has to be destroyed by battle. Heck, Mystic Tomato has a better float effect than Mathman. On top of all of this, it isn't searchable. I don't see how much of a convincing substitute it is over Arma  Eh. I disagree on the floating effect being "meh": either your opponent spends resources to remove it by an effect, or doesn't care/bother and kills it by battle and you get a card draw; either way, it's an amazing deal for you, and that's in addition to the mill it already gave to you.  It may not be Level4, but Level3 gives it other niches and applications (e.g. Rank3s, different Synchros). Plus, unlike Armageddon who only mills DARKs, this get to mills from every atribute; right now Arma is hot because DARKs have a lot of toys to mill, but what when the other attributes get more toys than Felis, Peropero, etc.? Mathman would become the next Armageddon/mill engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VCR_CAT Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Overall, my opinion of Mathman is that it's a good card; it's very useful in a variety of decks and situations. Yet, I haven't seen it used in a way the completely breaks a game or makes his usage unfair. Yeah he's good, but I don't think his usefulness warrants a hit in any way. It's good, but it's not game-breakingly good or TOO good. I know the OCG hit him down to 1, but that decision I'm skeptical of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darj Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Well, I would say it's more of a hit "on principle" (a word that I don't use, but has already been mentioned in this thread a couple of times already), rather than impact: Mathman is basically a Foolish Burial (Limited) backed up by a cute battle floating effect; granted, unlike Foolish, this takes your Normal Summon, but it is still potent in my opinion. If you are already hitting other cards based "on principle" (Lavalval, Limiter, etc.), I don't see why not hit this card on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireofDarkness Posted May 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Well, I would say it's more of a hit "on principle" (a word that I don't use, but has already been mentioned in this thread a couple of times already), rather than impact: Mathman is basically a Foolish Burial (Limited) backed up by a cute battle floating effect; granted, unlike Foolish, this takes your Normal Summon, but it is still potent in my opinion. If you are already hitting other cards based "on principle" (Lavalval, Limiter, etc.), I don't see why not hit this card on the way. Lavalval Chain isn't exactly a principle card. It's hit because as Giga described, if you are running it at more than 1, you normally are running it at 3, and only to abuse it to hell and back. Same with Limiter, though there are concerns with it and Chronometrics, hence why it got addressed. In fact, none of these are actually on principle, they are backed up by theory, impact, and the consensus of majority. I have no clue where you are getting this from, but please, please enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darj Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ah, my bad. But still, I think you understood what I meant. Â OT: I already brought them up in the chat, but just for the record, I suggest to put the following on the list: Â Forbidden Final Countdown: We already dropped the axe on Exodia, so we may as well drop it on this alternate win condition. Chain Material: Really, this only exists for silly loops, OTKs, FTKs, etc. Â We could address burn decks too, but I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lecc_XD Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Idk why so much fuss about Mathematician... If we follow this logic, we can limit Reckless Greed, Diagusto Emeral, Madolche Tiaramisu, Tenki, Upstart Goblin, EH- Dark Mist, Volcanic Scattershot, White Stone of the Legend, DH - Plasma, Scapegoat, Junk Synchron and a lot more because they all do broken as hell combos and +1 w/o any effort. Math is good, i agree, but it takes your normal and also isnt a card that cant change the game to your favor alone I think some hits should be re-thinked because some of them kill s the decks they made and Rage about that card (Like Vanity's and Skill Drain) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Skill drain isn't a healthy card. Vanity's should never be at more than one, but toyo says I'm not allowed to talk about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lecc_XD Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Isnt?... Is the sanest card i see in lots of years... It kills OP decks and affect yours as well if your deck isnt ready for it I dont see why it should go to ban if this card stops and slows down a lot of broken decks... Even im aware that most of my decks are shutted down with this card on field, only Stakes are Safe and just spamming from grave cuz rituals/xyz and field effects no longer works if this card appears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darj Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Lavalval Chain isn't exactly a principle card. It's hit because as Giga described, if you are running it at more than 1, you normally are running it at 3, and only to abuse it to hell and back. Same with Limiter, though there are concerns with it and Chronometrics, hence why it got addressed. In fact, none of these are actually on principle, they are backed up by theory, impact, and the consensus of majority. I have no clue where you are getting this from, but please, please enlighten me  For starters, I believe none of those hits are backed up by impact. As it was already mentioned, and as far as I know, no DP deck is currently abusing x3 Lavalval nor Limiter (on the latter, yes, Chronometrics and pretty much any Machine deck can play it, but I have yet to see them play it; as you said, it's a hit on theory, not impact), and yet they are on the list. If those aren't hits based "on principle", and I guess a synonym would be "card design" (if it's not, then I apologize for misunderstanding and misusing the word), then I don't know on what the hits are based on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 As for the difference between math and chain: chain is an ED card. This makes a massive difference. This mean that if you are running 3 of it, you intend to use them all. Math you run three of for consistency. To be completely honest, what I said about chain was just why it was limited and why i didn't care. Chain can be at 3 and it won't affect shit because nobody is going to use more than one. Mathmatician, on the other hand, become more difficult to get to if it is hit. That is the difference between hits on main deck and extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self-Destruct Button Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Giving my thoughts in bold. Since several people have asked about the banlist for the tournament, I have decided to make a thread for it to discuss and to discuss additional hits, if needed. I encourage this to be stickied, so players can take note of these when designing archetypes for upcoming tournaments. The list combines the current TCG banlist, along with the following hits:Banned: Entermage Trick Clown - Fine by me, does too much on its own. Also, its correct name is Performage Tricklown. Exodia the Forbidden One - I don't see why. If someone wants to run Exodia here then so be it, I don't care at all. Cards like Trap Engineer Vivyzian, Cold Wave for the Battle Phase and the likes of that don't really make this guy any better then it is in the TCG. Where it's sooo very relevant right now. When was the last time you heard an Exodia Deck top anything significant? Exactly. As long as nothing breaks Exodia, it's a pretty bad strategy and as such not banworthy. And if someone breaks it, it's their fault, and not this cards, so even more reason not to ban this. (Seems more like a Salt-ban, even though it's irrelevant altogether) Elder God Noden - And nothing of value was lost. Cyber Dragon Infinity - I don't care. Ban it if you want to, but it seems redundant together with Ptolemaios. Number 86: Rhomnogyiad - Too much investment for it to be banned. If a Deck breaks it it is said Decks fault, not this cards, much like with Exodia or Quasar. (See: Rekindling in Lavals) This card has no reason to be banned UNLESS it actually does something banworthy. I doubt we will even see it played in our tours. Number 95: Galaxy-Eyes Dark Matter Dragon - Without rulers I'd much rather test this guy at 1 or 2 before instantly just banning it, some Decks might use it without breaking it, so why not actually playtest without just outright banning? Tellarknight Ptolemaeus - Either this or Infinity. Limiter Removal - Makes sense. Raigeki - I'd like to have it in a format, but okay, I don't mind. Rekindling - Sure whatever. Soul Charge - I'd like to see this tested at 1. I fully agree with Toyo that it's not an unhealthy card for the game, and even if you topdeck it you may not always have enough LP to pay for it. I really like the Design and the restrictions of the card, so why don't we wait until it actually does something in the DP meta to ban it? Was it even played in the last tourneys? I didn't see it. Skill Drain - Eeeeh, i don't mind. Vanity's Emptiness - This is a very, very tricky one. Some think that it should stay at 1, so it's not as relevant as it was at 3 and not as present, but still as deadly for the most part. Thing is - it's very easy to get off the field, especially as long as we don't have Pendulums. It's perfectly balanced in itself imo, and I hate seeing such a card actually banned. It being limited would make all the sense in the world - like with most floodgates imo. That makes them still strong, but not as present. The thing about Vanity's that was so annoying was simply that it was there a felt 90% of the time, which it clearly isn't anyome at 1. As I said time and time again, why don't we just playtest if this is necessary or not? If not instantly, I'd like to have this tested in one or two tourneys to see if it actually is THAT bad. And even if a Deck doesn't have outs, that's mostly the fault of its builder. There's MST and even that Galaxy Storm thing that can blow up 2 cards in 2 turns, which makes it much, MUCH harder to protect a Vanity's Emptiness. I think at 1 it's okay, but all the salt and hate around this card will propably leave this opinion drowning.  Limited: Archlord Kristya - Nice thinking there. I appreciate the limit of this guy. Armageddon Knight - Okay, too versatile in Summoning Type. Honest - I don't care. Won't affect too much. Mathematician - It's only when it's Normal Summoned. So unless you play shitty stuff like Monster Recovery, you only get 1 shot out of him, and if you're lucky a draw. I think this is fine at 3. Entermage Trapeze Magician - I don't see why anyone would run this at multiples, but okay. Lavalval Chain - So if the first Chain you make gets Veilered, negated, whatever, you're basically done for the rest of this duel if you really need the card? 2of seems better imo, even 3 is fine as I don't know if any Archetype will actually use it. It's kind of weak compared to some other Rank 4s mostly, and I wouldn't run it in any of my Decks. Plus 1800 isn't great at all. Equalizer Matrix - About Equalizer Matrix: Didn't we agree one day that we won't put customs on the list, but instead nerf them so that they are fair at 3? Just because Konami creates op'd cards doesn't mean we should as well. Plus it could lead to a flood in broken staples, which really no one needs, so I'd say we alter the card and let it off the list." - plus we already had a tournament completely ruled by a broken staple (that being Repentance), and that really wasn't enjoyable. Storming Mirror Force/Wind God's Barrier - Air Force - Should be at the same limit as Mirror Force. Which Limit that is, I don't care. Temporal Maze - See "Equalizer Matrix". Imo this screams for a nerf, and at 1 it will just the the lucksackragecard as Pot of Greed or Delinquent Duo once were, though it's nowhere near these in Power Level, it's still broken as Hell. Extra Deck monsters don't come from the Deck, and even monsters that can only be Special Summoned under a certain condition are affected and boost this cards power. I pray to the nerfhammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeriberii Haan Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Mistake to 1 please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lecc_XD Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Mistake to 1 please. This is exactly what i mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 As for mistake, I think it is fine where it is. If a deck searches so much that a resolved Mistake beats them... that is their problem. If you think it makes search-heavy decks unplayable, just look at current TCG meta. Even though mistake exists, and used used as a 3-of in some decks, the strongest deck is STILL Nekroz, a deck that pretty much folds to the card. Does that say enough? Â Limiting is an overreaction. Semi'd is something I can live with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lecc_XD Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ik, but the fact that someone complain about a card that wrecks his/her own deck and then want it banned or limited All my decks are destroyed by emptiness and im here asking why its going banned lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireofDarkness Posted May 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ik, but the fact that someone complain about a card that wrecks his/her own deck and then want it banned or limited All my decks are destroyed by emptiness and im here asking why its going banned lol Keep in mind this banlist has been a thing since March, and outlives when you and Giga were in the forum. Some of these changes had a lot of thought and impact put into them, and some went very far to be done such. Vanity was one of those same cards. Sometimes it also is a matter of one person forgetting the existence of another, whichI is where everybody asked about Mathman in the Skype chat. Personally, 2 of my main Deck choices for the tournament are unaffected by Emptiness, and 1 of those is also unaffected by Skill Drain, but both of those being banned is something I would like. I feel as though Vanity, while originally with good intention, has had no room in the recent other then for potential lockdowns where you have the unbreakable board + Vanity. It's more or less the gamestate and not the card itself. Skill Drain itself has always been unhealthy, and really has only been run to be abused. That is the problem with it in comparison to the cards you mentioned earlier. On the subject of Mistake, I don't see many Deck on DP being strongly affected by it surprisingly. I will say I would prefer Wrongful Arrest any day of the week, so I would consider Limiting it to make that card the optimal choice, but for now, I see no reason to do such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lecc_XD Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Then i want Royal Oppression at 2 plz Out there are broken as hell decks that summons like crazy and have too much swarm and destructive effects that are not sane for the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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