Dragon Ball Super

[asterr259]

[spoiler=Current thoughts on past arc]

Really liked the Gohan stuff. I didn't realize Mystic was an actual form and was more of a state where he raised his power to the max. I'm glad that he pushed Goku to use SSB Kaio-ken.

I know the arc's pacing has been pretty slow, but it's been cool to see the glimpses into the other Universes alongside highlighting the side characters for an episode or two. I liked Krillin and 18's, 17's first episode was fun too (the space pirates bit was dumb though).

 

I'm really liking what Caulifla and Kale are bringing to the table. Female Super Saiyans are hype, Caulifla seems like a prodigy too from unlocking SS2 within the same short timeframe as SS. We're probably gonna see her get SS3 during the tournament.

I want a future arc to have Goku, Vegeta, and whoever else visit Universe 6's saiyan world. I think there'd be a lot of fun storytelling to do there.

 

Also gonna make a prediction now and say Universe 6 will win the tournament and Champa will repay the favor to Beerus by saving the rest of the Universes and/or Universe 7 with the Super Dragon Balls.

 

 

 

Champa has the capacity to wish back his brother's universe, but not other universes. Maybe Cabba, but that's about it, and even if the saiyans bring home the W, not sure how willing Champa is to listen to him. The saiyans of U6 were already strong, they just lacked knowledge of the Ssj transformation. Cabba was able to fight Vegeta almost evenly at base, but for Caulifla to turn Ssj2 THAT fast? A bit hard to swallow. Tbh you could also say the same for Gotenks who went 3 to fight Buu, but there was also timing. If they maybe drug out the fight longer, and made Cauli struggle a bit, I may have been more fine with it, but right now, just from learning one little trick, she's the strongest U6 Saiyan, and Cabba the weakest.

 

[spoiler=All my thoughts]

Honestly I've been skipping through the episodes just to see the other universes. I didn't even really watch the Goku and Gohan fight, I wasn't into the hype. And the community was always divided whether Mystic was a transformation or a constant state; it was poorly defined. As far as Power goes, I'd probably put it as a Ssj3 equivalent. Assuming it doesn't just always boost Gohan's power to it's maximum. I honestly don't care enough to research or speculate.

 

Tien was pretty disappointing (Krillin might be stronger at this point), and they seem to trying to imply Roshi is stronger than he should be. Both of these things upset me to the point of not caring. Contrarily A17's power spike doesn't bother me at all. This is probably from the suspicion of disbelief from a character we haven't seen or tracked. I gave Tien the same thing, as he was usually away unless there was a special celebration or the earth was in danger. We see Roshi all the time as a comic relief character and as portrayed through the series "the master who was surpassed by his students".

 

Buu's sudden slumber confuses and annoys me even more... Why hype up a character and make him seem appealing only to toss him aside for a character we're tired of seeing (or at least I am)? But I'll admit it was a smart move. Frieza is the third strongest character for the team. He has little to gain, but everything to lose. No one is really in a position to decline anything. One of the things I said is that they could do is toss Buu in the HBTC, but I calc'd it and with the time they have left, he probably wouldn't wake up in time. If he needs 2 to 3 months of sleep, then he would need around 4 to 6 hours inside, I think they have less than half that, and even if they put him inside now just in case, it'll only be a 48 min tournament.

 

The PERFECT replacement for Buu would've been Cell (kek). He pretty much the only villain not obsessed by world Domination/Destruction, and more into testing the limits of his ability. Seeing as he was previously defined himself as perfection, this could've given him a chance for "growth" to actually train towards that idea of perfect. Given that he is trained effectively and properly. But I'm not sure how much stronger he could've gotten with less than 2 months of training even with Whis, Goku and Vegeta. This is all impossible now, and nothing short of a fanfic, but if they actually planned this and took out the useless filler/plotlines, it may well could've happened (Oh well, Ressurection C will just have to wait another day). But so could've Hercule telling them earlier so they'd have enough time to put him in the HBTC, or you know... Not do this at all? Buu occasionally sleeping for months on end was never an established thing before now... At this point? I don't care... I just. Don't. Care...

 

Only interested in the new fighters of other universes and so far that's only Jiren and the U6 Saiyans. No other character has that "appeal" that they're important. DB has always designed certain characters in a way that gave them a threatening atmosphere, that they have power, they're important. Would've been nice to see, but probably a nightmare for future video game installments. DBZ game are already pushing a pretty huge roster, not everyone can have their favorites (new or old).

 

 

[King K. Azo]

Can I say I'm actually not as excited for female Super Saiyans as I once would be?

 

I dunno. I'm just sick of Saiyans. We have so many other interesting universes, and I want to see them. Not, "moar Saiyans!"

[asterr259]

Can I say I'm actually not as excited for female Super Saiyans as I once would be?

 

I dunno. I'm just sick of Saiyans. We have so many other interesting universes, and I want to see them. Not, "moar Saiyans!"

 

No one can blame you. But it's just so satisfying seeing a capable saiyan female. After reading most of them, I was starting to think Trolliyama has serious misogynistic tendencies in his works, right next to Hiro Mashima (but that's a whole nother topic for another day). And making the Legendary Ssj transformation canon? This arc is almost like some kind of love letter... or you know, a cash grab for views...

 

A lot of these newer characters just feel like throwaways for the tournament, and imo just aren't appealing. Which is a shame because I was expecting a lot more from Universe 10... U7, U6, and U11 pretty much look like the only ones that matter.

[Fusion X. Denver]

[spoiler=Tournament Arc thoughts so far]

Pros:

-Goku vs Jiren was cool. Jiren's bland as a character, but I like he turned the Spirit Bomb back on Goku and could still defeat him when he unlocked Ultra Instinct.

-My man Master Roshi, what a G. He hadn't had character growth in years and managed to take down like 4 fighters before retiring, that's seriously impressive. 

-The variety in fighters has been fun to watch, each fighter has their own gimmick and it's nice to see fights that aren't just centered on power levels.

-Caulifla and Kale spiced things up in the 100th episode. Strange that Cabba hasn't really done much so far though, guessing we'll see more focus on him and the rest of the U6 team towards the end of the arc.

 

Cons:

-Krillin and Tien should've gotten to do more. They did so much with Krillin in the pre-tourney arc only for him to be eliminated after taking down one guy. And Tien deserved better than resolving a fight of Gohan's and suiciding off the ledge. I hope sheet'll hit the fan after the tourney ends and if a god war happens, they'll get a second chance to shine.

-The arc's dragging a little bit, I get it'd be hard to speed through but tightening up the pacing some more would be of benefit.

-That one fight Gohan had with the Yardrat. I feel like he shouldn't have had that much trouble.

-When's Piccolo gonna get his limelight? Maybe against those U6 Namekians that have only had a few frames of screentime so far?

 

 

And as usual, the manga's a delight and proving to be the better version.

[The Warden]

As amusing as Rebrienne as a concept was, I really wish she would funk off already.

[Fusion X. Denver]

As amusing as Rebrienne as a concept was, I really wish she would funk off already.

She should have been gone an episode or 2 after they focused on the trio. If anything, Vegeta's sneak attack this past episode should've knocked her out the ring and would've made the gag better.

 

I did get a kick out of how they made fun of themselves with the whole waiting while they transform. Android 17's a blessing.

 

He's another pro I should've added, great idea to bring him back.

[King K. Azo]

And as usual, the manga's a delight and proving to be the better version.

 

You are entitled to your wrong opinion.

 

As amusing as Rebrienne as a concept was, I really wish she would funk off already.

 

Same.

[Fusion X. Denver]

You are entitled to your wrong opinion.

I'm actually curious as to why, I'd thought that was the consensus.

I do like the anime, I just think the manga goes into more detail and pays more attention to the smaller things that the show kinda glosses over.

[The Warden]

Like Goku being able to access the Super Saiyan God power.

[Fusion X. Denver]

Like Goku being able to access the Super Saiyan God power.

[spoiler=And Vegeta for that matter]

 

I also feel like Toyotaro was able to tighten the narrative for the Goku Black Saga in the manga and played around more with different ideas. Trunks being able to heal was an interesting concept and I'd say the fights in general have more interesting choreography.

[King K. Azo]

I'm actually curious as to why, I'd thought that was the consensus.

I do like the anime, I just think the manga goes into more detail and pays more attention to the smaller things that the show kinda glosses over.

Ooooooh boi, here comes the rant. Now, before I go, I'm not saying the anime is perfect or that that manga doesn't have good things.

 

I just think the manga's super overhyped.

 

[spoiler=Warning, spoilers ahead!]

Okay, so, my biggest issue is that there is no threat in the manga, no tension. Yeah, sure, you could say the anime doesn't because End of Z, but you know what? I was on the edge of my seat in the U6 tournament, because switching worlds wouldn't affect end of Z. I was worried for the people in the Future, and I actually had to check if Roshi was in end of Z after his episode.

 

The manga? Nothing can touch Goku and Vegeta. A legendary assassin that's over 1000 years old, can basically stop time, and grows faster in battle than Saiyans?

 

Fodder.

 

A fallen god that took over the body of a fallen warrior and the mightiest of Earth's champions, adding their two powers together?

 

Laughable. And that pulls me out of it, horribly

 

Then there's the Goku Black arc... Oh dear God, the Goku Black arc.

 

In the anime, Zamasu was shown primative mortals that grew up to be a war hungry species, and his teacher was neglectful. He then was challenged by Son Goku and lost, before finding out he was able to challenge a God of Destruction. Coming to the conculsion that not only are mortals prone to destroying the gifts the gods gave them, and can become as powerful as the gods, he decided to use the Super Dragon Balls to switch bodies with Son Goku, a mighty warrior and someone he has a hateful respect for.

 

In the manga? "Oh, I was watching Godtube, and I saw the fight between Goku and Hit. Mortals are evil, let's take Goku's body,"

 

That is so much worse than the anime's interpretation, and because the manga went that route, you lose a lot of the great character that Goku Black is.

 

Speaking of Goku Black. In the anime, he is a god now being tainted by Son Goku, wishing to become stronger and stronger. He has a respect for Goku, that's easy to see, but he also loves to hurt the man. He is like a Grim Reaper, coming for the souls in humanity. Even when it looks like he's losing, he never throws a tantrum, and fights with a psychotic smile on his face. Up to when he fused with Zamasu, he was actually undefeated, being the only villain which such a feat.

 

Manga Goku Black? He loses his cool all the time, he boasts about being the strongest, but when he loses, he devolves into a child, throwing tantrums and whining his ass off. This personality, plus the black marks around his eyes makes people remember someone else.

 

Xicor. Yeah, Toyotaro turned Goku Black into his crappy Dragon Ball AF villain. Why?! He was so good in the anime! What good came out of doing this? Super Saiyan? Ooooooh, how amazing, he can turn his hair yellow when you can imply that from the fact he can go Rose.

 

Then we get to Fused Zamasu. Ooooooh, Fused Zamasu. Okay, so, it was established that only Supreme Kais can use the Time Rings, and Goku Black become one when he killed Gowasu, allowing him to go to Trunks' timeline and wreck havok.

 

Fused Zamasu starts to defuse because he wasn't a Supreme Kai in the manga.

 

But wait. If he wasn't a Supreme Kai, then how the hell did he use the Time Rings to travel to the timeline in the first place? That's a huge plothole!

 

And then to top it off, when they cut up Fused Zamasu, he grew into clones...

 

Um... Why? Being immortal doesn't give him duplication! That makes no sense! And then, Goku Black and Zamasu can turn back into Fused Zamasu because "their body remembered the form" makes even less sense! Then why don't Goku and Vegeta turn into Vegetio? Their bodies don't remember the form?

 

And now, we get to the biggest issue of the arc. Goku using Hakai. That makes NO SENSE AT ALL. Okay, even of Goku could mimic such a move as Hakai, he was never shown seeing the move! That's horrible writing. And people try to say "Well, they trained on Who's planet, they could have seen Beerus do it then!" You mean to tell me that Beerus is just walking around his home and Hakaing random things? No!

 

 

And then there's the fact Toyotaro blantantly copies panels from the manga. The Goku Black arc goes from a dark arc to a rehash of the Cell arc.

 

All in all, the manga is a complete mess, and it's way over hyped.

 

[Fusion X. Denver]

Man, Goku vs Kefla was a good fight.

 

The episodes have been really solid lately, especially last week's. Lot of emotion, crazy action, and killer team plays. Nice to see some tournament progress as well.

[spoiler=I didn't expect (118)]

Universe 6 to have been eliminated this early when the arc first started. I guess there goes my idea of them winning.

 

I think Jiren may end up the ultimate winner and wish for all the universes to be restored. Universe 7 could also win, but I could see them trying to subvert that expectation.

 

[Thar]

Currently on episode 65. Definitely feels rushed, but still has that same DBZ addictiveness.

 

Also, Resistance Mae is bae~

[Jake the Sage]

I watch the Japanese release with subtitles on. So I'm on the current arch at 100-something. Don't remember the exact number but yeah.

[Sunshine Jesse]

For anyone who doesn't know, the OST for Super is being released on the 28th.

 

This includes KA KA KA KA KACHI KAZE. I've heard rumors of a single of it being released on the 14th but I'm not sure.

 

I'm hype.

[Krashkube]

[spoiler=127 spoilers]

based Jiren finally ending toei's wanking on 17

 

 

[Fusion X. Denver]

[spoiler=130 and 131 Finale]

Incredible. Excellent animation, superb storyboarding, lots of hype with Ultra Instinct and then Goku and Frieza teaming up to defeat Jiren. I think the fight against Jiren will go down as one of the best fights of Dragon Ball. It goes to show how Dragon Ball's style of midair rapid-fire punches and kicks can still be made into a fluid, dynamic spectacle of action that makes for a great modern showing of Dragon Ball fighting.

Android 17 being the final winner was nice, and of course he wishes everything back. It wasn't going to end any other way.

 

What I'm hoping is that wish will bring back those universes Zeno erased before and that will be the crux in whatever new Dragon Ball series comes out next year (Dragon Ball Ultra?). I actually also really liked how the Zenos placed trust in the winner being selfless with their wish, it was a nice surprise when it comes to their character(s).

I made a long post about my overall feelings with the show and characters:

[spoiler=Dragon Ball Super]

God of Destruction Beerus Saga-Should not have been stretched out to 14 episodes, the actual content was fine and fun as seen in the Battle of Gods movie, but the pacing and downgraded animation made for a less enjoyable experience than what was shown in the movie.

Golden Frieza Saga-Also should not have been retold, I didn't like how they treated Gohan personally and the pacing drew things out longer than it should have been. The movie was an enjoyable, quick romp.

Universe 6 Saga-Universe 6 characters are a great addition to the cast. Vegeta had a lot of focus in this arc and delivered some great fights and a dynamic with Cabba. Goku bringing back Kaio-ken was hype and Hit was a fun adversary to see him square off against. I think Piccolo and Buu got gipped in this arc, Piccolo should have at least gotten one win. 

Future Trunks Saga-This arc has some great highs and serious lows of Super. The good ideas were bringing Future Trunks back, having a god gone rogue be the villain, Goku Black, and Vegito Blue. I think Trunks getting to finish the final blow was a nice change of pace from Goku and Vegeta saving the day and there was a lot to unpack and enjoy seeing him meet up with characters from the present.

Bad ideas were his hair being blue, the very sloppy execution in having them repeatedly go back and forth in time, going through the effort of learning the Mafuba but ending up completely throwing it out the window, and the damn ending. It's an interesting idea to have the bad guy win but Zeno is summoned and then instantly ends everything. Trunks and Mai also returning to a different future that wasn't theirs felt...weird. They really couldn't just come back to the present? 

Overall, interesting ideas but slipshod execution.

Universe Survival Saga-This arc is actually the longest in all of Dragon Ball, it went for a whole year. We had some shitty episodes, okay episodes, good episodes, and amazing episodes. It really is a mixed bag, but I think it ultimately is a good arc and I walked away from it feeling fulfilled.

Jiren could have been way more interesting. Apparently Toppo was going to be the big bad and switched him for Jiren at the last minute. But he felt boring for the most part and then at the end was given a quick stock back-story and his motivations felt one-note and not compelling. We know you can make that character work because Batman is a thing, so Jiren's character felt flat for me. I did like seeing him showing emotion and letting loose a bit in the finale, though.

Toppo was great. So was the whole conceit behind Universe 11, I want to see them come back and get more development, mostly Dyspo and Kahseral (had to look up is name, the cyborg pilot guy).

[spoiler=Other universes]

Universes 9 and 10 felt eh, not really memorable either aside from the old guy that fought Gohan and the Trio de Dangers.

Universe 2 had a funny gimmick and I enjoyed them for the most part, but I think too many episodes focused on them and understandably grew annoying. 

Universe 3 should have gotten more screentime, I like the idea of a cybernetic team but they ended up being quickly squeezed in before making way for the 7 vs 11 fight. 

Universe 6 was a delight as stated earlier and Universe 4 had some interesting fighters thrown in there like the bird guy, a prankster team felt right at home.

The best thing about this arc? Master Roshi and Android 17. Two side characters got the chance to shine and they blew me away with their wits, cunning, and the action involved in their fights. True MVPs, very pleased with their inclusion. I just wish Krillin and Tien could have gotten the same treatment out of it.

Ultra Instinct was a cool transformation to draft up. I like its emphasis on not thinking and dodging for a fighting style, very different from how Goku normally operates. This was better than when they just started being able to do Super Saiyan Blue off-screen.

 

One of the series' best facets was its breather episodes. Super brought back comedy to Dragon Ball and the two go hand in hand beautifully. The episodes leading up the Tournament of Power were a pretty great experience in focusing on each of the characters and fleshing everyone out a little more. I hope to see more of that type of content in the future.

 

Regarding other characters: I think Vegeta really benefitted from Super. He's risen up in my favorites list and continued to experience growth throughout the whole show.

I'm cool with the show being more true to Goku's character, but I wish he went through similar development that Vegeta did and I feel like Toei made him dumber in instances where he would have known something. Also, I'm bummed they made it that Goku never kissed Chi-Chi. Small thing to gripe about, but that just makes me feel bad for Chi-Chi and it's hard to blame her disposition.

I'm glad Gohan got his groove back. It was fun to cheer him on during training and he managed to hold his own during the Tourney as well. I wish he played a bigger part in wrapping up the tournament, but him taking down Dyspo was a reasonable send-off. It was very intriguing to see him and Frieza working together.

Speaking of which, I like Frieza way more now than I used to. Ever since I saw Resurrection F and looked back on the series as a whole, Frieza really is a great villain and I'm glad they found new uses for him. I would have had him train a year instead of just 4 months to go Golden, but I think making him relevant again and then bringing him into the ToP were great ideas. Him and Goku teaming up for the finale sounds like a fanfic pipe dream, but Super had me grinning ear to ear throughout that action and the whole finale. 

There was definitely a lot of production issues, a series of missteps, some puzzling narrative choices, and missed areas of potential in Super.

But in spite of all that, I had loads of fun watching it with some great battles and cool character interactions. I'm glad it exists and can't wait to see what comes next.

 

I love Dragon Ball

4/5

[Sunshine Jesse]

The last two episodes of Super made me appreciate Jiren a hell of a lot more. Watching him lose his sheet like that added a lot of depth to him as a character and they managed to fit in a lot of development in that short amount of time. I can't say he's one of my favorites, but I do adore the direction those last two episodes took him in.

[The Warden]

[spoiler=Regarding Jiren]

During ep 130 I kinda realized something with Jiren, in that he really reminded me of a godmodder. Just this one person with a bland as all hell backstory (and sometimes bland design) who is always aloof and for no real reason is obscenely powerful. Like, even with just training Jiren has no right being that ludicrously powerful. And that was his design... he is strong. But then someone just as strong comes along, and much like a godmodder, he throws a tantrum about and gets all jabroniy because clearly they're cheating because they're not supposed to be that strong and they get their sheet wrecked. But then, whoopsie, a hidden never-seen-before bit of backstory pops up for them and now said godmodder suddenly becomes more powerfuller than the person beating them, and may also be spewing bullshit thinly veiled as some kind of deep philosophy.

 

This was the entire impression I got from him, and his "development" after being beaten really doesn't excuse how lazy he was as a thing. He was more like a living, breathing wall for Goku to overcome than a character.

 

[Fusion X. Denver]

[spoiler=Regarding Jiren]

During ep 130 I kinda realized something with Jiren, in that he really reminded me of a godmodder. Just this one person with a bland as all hell backstory (and sometimes bland design) who is always aloof and for no real reason is obscenely powerful. Like, even with just training Jiren has no right being that ludicrously powerful. And that was his design... he is strong. But then someone just as strong comes along, and much like a godmodder, he throws a tantrum about and gets all jabroniy because clearly they're cheating because they're not supposed to be that strong and they get their sheet wrecked. But then, whoopsie, a hidden never-seen-before bit of backstory pops up for them and now said godmodder suddenly becomes more powerfuller than the person beating them, and may also be spewing bullshit thinly veiled as some kind of deep philosophy.

 

This was the entire impression I got from him, and his "development" after being beaten really doesn't excuse how lazy he was as a thing. He was more like a living, breathing wall for Goku to overcome than a character.

 

[spoiler=I'd agree]

I think Jiren's whole purpose was to be a giant wall for Goku to overcome and pressed him to surpass his limits again. Toei didn't care enough to do more with his character, or maybe Toriyama insisted he be more stoic. I'm hoping the manga expands on him some more, because he's nowhere near as compelling as other lead antagonists have been like Frieza, Cell, even Buu. And there was a lot of potential here since Jiren's supposed to be a good guy fighting for justice and what's right. That's why him trying to blow up the crowd pissed me off, I don't think stooping that low should have been in Jiren's character and it felt arbitrary. I think Toppo would have fit better as the lead antagonist in that regard.

 

At least the guy can put on a good fight.

 

[Sunshine Jesse]

[spoiler=yeah but]The thing about Jiren trying to blow up the crowd is that he had all of his ideals crushed right in front of him. He was desperate to prove himself right so his reaction made perfect sense.

 

He was a broken man at that point. He built his whole personality on the idea of being a lone beacon of strength that everyone could trust and the idea that trust in others could lead to greater strength than what he had contradicted everything about him.

 

It makes a lot more sense if you realize it was likely a reaction born from PTSD.

 

[Fusion X. Denver]

[spoiler=yeah but]The thing about Jiren trying to blow up the crowd is that he had all of his ideals crushed right in front of him. He was desperate to prove himself right so his reaction made perfect sense.

 

He was a broken man at that point. He built his whole personality on the idea of being a lone beacon of strength that everyone could trust and the idea that trust in others could lead to greater strength than what he had contradicted everything about him.

 

It makes a lot more sense if you realize it was likely a reaction born from PTSD.

 

[spoiler=Fair point]

I think my whole disappointment with Jiren that's lasted for the majority of the arc colored the lens I saw his actions through towards the end. I would still have written it differently or preferred a different choice, but I see the logic here.

If we're able to see more of this imperfect Jiren in future Dragon Ball, I'd say it's possible for him to grow on me more.