[Poll] Should DAD Go?

[VampireofDarkness]

I know I am a little early on this, but I feel this had to be said at some point. As much as it is ironic that I am the first person to say this, I am requesting that, past this tournament, that Dark Armed Dragon be banned:

When I created the Dark Counterpart Ritual Deck, I created it not only with the idea of an amusing but aggressive Ritual Deck, but also a Deck that could effectively run otherwise non-viable bosses like The Dark Creator, Dark Nephtys, Darklord Zerato, and possibly even Rainbow Dark Dragon. As it stands, I am starting to slowly reach that goal, and am really enjoying it. However, in the middle of all of those was Dark Armed Dragon, a really unbalanced card that spun the Deck from field containment through beatsticks and Rank 4s to OTK central and massive fields.

In short, DAD is not only searchable by coincidence of the archetype being mostly "Dark" monsters, but allowing room for extreme pluses as a result of the unlimited banishing that triggers the effect of several of the Non-Ritual monsters of the Deck, or even Grandmaster himself giving a draw when it's banished as the cost of a DARK monster's effect. I know most of the people in the tournament, aside from the people who flipped over Vanity's Emptiness, had faced an absolute blowout Game 1 Turn 2 or 4 against me, with Dark Armed allowing at least 2 draws and returning one of the cards that got those draws to my hand at the end of the turn among an empty board at the very least. But by then, you already got OTK'd. Not even Infernity ever allowed for such ridiculous combos off of just a few cards.

DAD was never a fair card to begin with. A free 2800 that promoted overextending to the highest degree is not anything healthy at all, but the extreme it has taken now warrants a departure. However, this is a poll, and I am asking your opinion after hearing my own. Should Dark Armed Dragon go?

[Cirrus]

If your archetype abuses DAD, then you should nerf your archetype, not DAD. Maybe searching boss monsters is a bad idea after all?!

 

DAD is rather tame compared to BLS and goes into a much narrower range of decks.

 

Just reduce / put some limits on your searching power is what I'm saying.

[VampireofDarkness]

If your archetype abuses DAD, then you should nerf your archetype, not DAD.

DAD is rather tame compared to BLS and goes into a much narrower range of decks.

I've actually run through several tests without DAD actually among one or two other minor fixes. It's completely fine, as most of the people I tested against could atest to. And tbh, I've always thought DAD was the better card than BLS. Its condition is the only thing holding it back really.

Also, the thing with the Deck without DAD is usually most of your search power either eats up your hand (Leed and Alector) or you're only getting it to establish your field (Grandmaster and Senju). By the end of Turn 1, I have a decent Rank 4 and maybe Ghoulungulate or Venus on board with 2 cards in my hand tops. I think that's more than fair if you ask me

[Cirrus]

I've actually run through several tests without DAD actually among one or two other minor fixes. It's completely fine, as most of the people I tested against could atest to. And tbh, I've always thought DAD was the better card than BLS. Its condition is the only thing holding it back really.

Indeed, the condition is the only thing holding it back. The thing is, DAD is powerful in your deck precisely because you can search it whenever you want - thus bypassing the ability to brick it at a point you don't need it. A lot of decks lack the ability to manipulate the graveyard and since DAD is @ 1, never see it most games; but this is untrue for your deck. Your deck is also adept at manipulating the graveyard so you can summon DAD on a whim. Basically the problem is not necessarily with DAD, but with how consistent your deck gets DAD - at least that's what it seems like to me.

[-Griffin]

I actually like how DAD works out in the TCG. You can debate balance and design of it all day, but in the end TeleDAD was a really cool Deck in what was a bit of a golden era to my nostalgia goggles. 

 

That said, DAD with support for it that's much more specific sounds problematic. The best solution IMO would be if DAD was just not 'part of the Archtype' somehow, but that would probably involve putting "except DAD" every other sentence, which is ugly. Depending on card's wording, there might be a more elegant way to do it. Maybe DAD could even be renamed to avoid clashing with the archtype. 

[Cirrus]

I actually like how DAD works out in the TCG. You can debate balance and design of it all day, but in the end TeleDAD was a really cool Deck in what was a bit of a golden era to my nostalgia goggles. 

 

That said, DAD with support for it that's much more specific sounds problematic. The best solution IMO would be if DAD was just not 'part of the Archtype' somehow, but that would probably involve putting "except DAD" every other sentence, which is ugly. Depending on card's wording, there might be a more elegant way to do it. Maybe DAD could even be renamed to avoid clashing with the archtype. 

Exactly my thoughts on the subject. I think actually one could reduce the power budget significantly by just limiting some of the searches to Level 8 or higher monsters, which still allows usage of most of the Dark Counterpart bosses but prevents searching of lower-level mooks - including in-archetype ones, which is a very good (and possibly helpful!) consistency hit.

[VampireofDarkness]

Indeed, the condition is the only thing holding it back. The thing is, DAD is powerful in your deck precisely because you can search it whenever you want - thus bypassing the ability to brick it at a point you don't need it. A lot of decks lack the ability to manipulate the graveyard and since DAD is @ 1, never see it most games; but this is untrue for your deck. Your deck is also adept at manipulating the graveyard so you can summon DAD on a whim. Basically the problem is not necessarily with DAD, but with how consistent your deck gets DAD - at least that's what it seems like to me.

Well as it is, Eclipse Wyvern searches DAD, we both know that, and Shadolls, given their hand is afit for it, can pull a similar stunt, and it pretty much allows them to overextend and go for game. The difference between that and this is that DAD is either Turn 1 or not at all. Games 2 and 3 of my Deck hardly ever saw DAD coming out again cause not only was it not the best move, but I wouldn't consistently have the same combo that made Game 1 fast as hell. While the part after DAD is dropped was fixed as a result of an errata made on someone else's end, the problem with DAD still stands, which is what created this thread

[VampireofDarkness]

Exactly my thoughts on the subject. I think actually one could reduce the power budget significantly by just limiting some of the searches to Level 8 or higher monsters, which still allows usage of most of the Dark Counterpart bosses but prevents searching of lower-level mooks - including in-archetype ones, which is a very good (and possibly helpful!) consistency hit.

Problem is, everything else lower than Level 8 is quite crucial. As I explained earlier, it requires a lot of hand advantage to make the big boards, and DAD allowed for that like no other card in the Deck. As it stands, the standard Turn 1 play is Grandmaster, search Grepher, Xyz, then summon Ghoulungulate (Which is Level 5) End Turn. So the idea on that is a little bit crushed unfortunately

[Darj]

I agree with Griffin and Cirrus. DAD is not exactly the problem, but the cards and decks that makes it consistent and abusable. This means that, in TCG, Shaddolls are arguably the problem, but that's the TCG power creep for you. In DP, well, your archetype would be the problem.

 

While Eclipse supports DAD by searching it, the card, or rather the engine, requires external support to be properly used (e.g banish Eclipse, get those 3 DARKs for DAD, etc.), so it is more or less kept in check. But if it becomes a problem in DP, I would rather Limit/ban Eclipse before DAD.

[Cirrus]

Problem is, everything else lower than Level 8 is quite crucial. As I explained earlier, it requires a lot of hand advantage to make the big boards, and DAD allowed for that like no other card in the Deck. As it stands, the standard Turn 1 play is Grandmaster, search Grepher, Xyz, then summon Ghoulungulate (Which is Level 5) End Turn. So the idea on that is a little bit crushed unfortunately

Is this a good standard to follow? Shouldn't a healthy archetype have multiple lines of turn 1 play other than just one default high-powered search/summon play? Perhaps your archetype needs to be looked at a bit further. Nekroz sports the same type of consistency with a Ritual deck, but some of its limits are quite a bit harsher than yours (the only exception was Senju / Manju / Prep for Ritual, which all got limited!) - although you don't have Trishula, it would be possible to argue that consistency is in itself a great strength ...

 

It's very tempting to just say "my archetype is okay without DAD!", but it doesn't operate in a vacuum unless you really want it to. Just banning DAD, while possible, isn't exactly an elegant solution, especially from a designer's point of view.

[VampireofDarkness]

I agree with Griffin and Cirrus. DAD is not exactly the problem, but the cards and decks that makes it consistent and abusable. This means that, in TCG, Shaddolls are arguably the problem, but that's the TCG power creep for you. In DP, well, your archetype would be the problem.

While Eclipse supports DAD by searching it, the card, or rather the engine, requires external support to be properly used (e.g banish Eclipse, get those 3 DARKs for DAD, etc.), so it is more or less kept in check. But if it becomes a problem in DP, I would rather Limit/ban Eclipse before DAD.

The thing that becomes a problem, however, is when the rest of the engine has to be an issue over one card. As Griffin suggested, just a name change to Dark Armed (Even a D. instead of Dark would fix the entire problem) could fix it. Dark Armed is Turn 1 or nothing, so why would I run a card that is that situational when I can run Gorz and have protection later in the Duel? Either way I run 0 backrow, which means unless I have instant access to it, I shouldn't be running anything along those lines

[Darj]

The thing that becomes a problem, however, is when the rest of the engine has to be an issue over one card. As Griffin suggested, just a name change to Dark Armed (Even a D. instead of Dark would fix the entire problem) could fix it. Dark Armed is Turn 1 or nothing, so why would I run a card that is that situational when I can run Gorz and have protection later in the Duel? Either way I run 0 backrow, which means unless I have instant access to it, I shouldn't be running anything along those lines

 

I agree. Hence my suggestion of renaming your archetype back then. I thought we had agreed that you would rename it so I don't get how DAD is still a problem in your archetype.

[VampireofDarkness]

Is this a good standard to follow? Shouldn't a healthy archetype have multiple lines of turn 1 play other than just one default high-powered search/summon play? Perhaps your archetype needs to be looked at a bit further. Nekroz sports the same type of consistency with a Ritual deck, but some of its limits are quite a bit harsher than yours (the only exception was Senju / Manju / Prep for Ritual, which all got limited!) - although you don't have Trishula, it would be possible to argue that consistency is in itself a great strength ...

It's very tempting to just say "my archetype is okay without DAD!", but it doesn't operate in a vacuum unless you really want it to. Just banning DAD, while possible, isn't exactly an elegant solution, especially from a designer's point of view.

Of course there are multiple ways, but I'm saying that's the main route you're going for. You have no backrow, so having a way to back yourself up (Ghoulungulate) is ESSENTIAL since, similar to TeleDAD, you burn your hand like nothing. Alector requires an additional discard to search, Leed requires an additional discard to search, that's a hell of a huge difference Nekroz doesn't have. Also, I don't have anything like Trishula, and actually DAD is technically the only effective way I can remove backrow or really pop anything using effects without using going into the Extra Deck or using Mega Caius (Using the example of my current build). It's all just a beatstick game really. Also, unlike my Deck, Nekroz can freely get whatever Ritual Spell they like when they control no monsters, so they recover instantly, whereas my Deck has none of that. I can't tell you how many times the past few days I scooped because I had my board picked out and had no additional plays. I usually end Turn 4 or 5 with one or zero cards in hand, so from there, your protection cards and control based Xyz become the key cards, as to prevent you from getting the door slammed

I agree. Hence my suggestion of renaming your archetype back then. I thought we had agreed that you would rename it so I don't get how DAD is still a problem in your archetype.

The problem is that it destroys the ACTUAL goal I had in mind with the archetype. I actually have had most of this written since Day 2 of the tournament since it just was getting way out of hand, and I still adhere to the fact that it's just devastating to even bring such things up as to essentially remove the Deck from its original purpose. I don't really think that's fair at all

[Darj]

The problem is that it destroys the ACTUAL goal I had in mind with the archetype. I actually have had most of this written since Day 2 of the tournament since it just was getting way out of hand, and I still adhere to the fact that it's just devastating to even bring such things up as to essentially remove the Deck from its original purpose. I don't really think that's fair at all

 

So you would rather axe DAD first than adapt the goal of your archetype for the sake of balance. Don't you think that's kinda selfish? Going as far as to make banlist changes so your archetype remains preserved. What if OCG/TCG drops more Dark support that further breaks your archetype? (yes, it is unlikely but we never know) Would we have to hit/ban those cards as well?

 

Perhaps Dark Counterparts are not meant to get support, but instead remain as techable cards for DARK decks.

[Cirrus]

Of course there are multiple ways, but I'm saying that's the main route you're going for. You have no backrow, so having a way to back yourself up (Ghoulungulate) is ESSENTIAL since, similar to TeleDAD, you burn your hand like nothing. Alector requires an additional discard to search, Leed requires an additional discard to search, that's a hell of a huge difference Nekroz doesn't have. Also, I don't have anything like Trishula, and actually DAD is technically the only effective way I can remove backrow or really pop anything using effects without using going into the Extra Deck or using Mega Caius (Using the example of my current build). It's all just a beatstick game really. Also, unlike my Deck, Nekroz can freely get whatever Ritual Spell they like when they control no monsters, so they recover instantly, whereas my Deck has none of that. I can't tell you how many times the past few days I scooped because I had my board picked out and had no additional plays. I usually end Turn 4 or 5 with one or zero cards in hand, so from there, your protection cards and control based Xyz become the key cards, as to prevent you from getting the door slammed

 

Ok, but I'm not calling for an outright nerf, necessarily. I'm just saying perhaps your power is a bit misallocated. Grandmaster doesn't require a discard to search, and Nekroz only has a single search-anything card anyway also; it's not like they don't require discards to search, given that the monster gets dumped during the search (or rather, not having too many floaters is common sense!). I'm sure your deck is fine without DAD, but the entire reason DAD is strong in your deck is because the downside is nonexistent - its upside being situational explosiveness, and downside being uselessness the rest of the time. This highlights a significant strength your deck has, and you've highlighted some weaknesses as well; why not reassign your power budget a bit?

 

In a way, I also see what Voltex is getting at: the only reason that the other DARK counterparts are not broken in your deck is because their upside is not large enough compared to the specificness of their conditions. If they were stronger, they would be incredibly good too as toolbox pieces.

[VampireofDarkness]

So you would rather axe DAD first than adapt the goal of your archetype for the sake of balance. Don't you think that's kinda selfish? Going as far as to make banlist changes so your archetype remains preserved. What if OCG/TCG drops more Dark support that further breaks your archetype? (yes, it is unlikely but we never know) Would we have to hit/ban those cards as well?

Perhaps Dark Counterparts are not meant to get support, but instead remain as techable cards for DARK decks.

The problem is that everything BUT the interaction with Dark Armed is fine. We both know this. If the TCG/OCG ever dropped new Dark Support, I would actually drop the Deck admittingly because there would be probably few ways to balance it, considering the bs we got now.

Also, back in the day, Dark Counterparts was a Deck. You abused Veil of Darkness and other such cards to load up the Graveyard and by Turn 7-9, Drop Rainbow Dark Dragon then abuse cards like DDR and Escape from the Dark Dimension to OTK. It isn't quite viable now, but back then it was hella devastating when no one expected it

[Darj]

The problem is that everything BUT the interaction with Dark Armed is fine. We both know this. If the TCG/OCG ever dropped new Dark Support, I would actually drop the Deck admittingly because there would be probably few ways to balance it, considering the bs we got now.

Also, back in the day, Dark Counterparts was a Deck. You abused Veil of Darkness and other such cards to load up the Graveyard and by Turn 7-9, Drop Rainbow Dark Dragon then abuse cards like DDR and Escape from the Dark Dimension to OTK. It isn't quite viable now, but back then it was hella devastating when no one expected it

 

Yes, you could effectively build a deck with them; all they need are DARKs to work, and they are DARK themselves. But my point is that they never got cards that directly support monsters with "Dark" in their name. The only one that supports them, if I remember correctly, is Eclipse Wyvern, and even then, it is indirect support because it picks DARK Dragons, which includes DAD and Horus; plus all the generic DARK support out there, of course.

 

That, and a "Dark" archetype would be ridiculously big. From the Dark counterparts, to silly "Dark" monsters such as Desertapir, Dark Crusader; hell, it would even include Dark Worlds, Dark Scorpions, Dark Magician, etc.

[VampireofDarkness]

Yes, you could effectively build a deck with them; all they need are DARKs to work, and they are DARK themselves. But my point is that they never got cards that directly support monsters with "Dark" in their name. The only one that supports them, if I remember correctly, is Eclipse Wyvern, and even then, it is indirect support because it picks DARK Dragons, which includes DAD and Horus; plus all the generic DARK support out there, of course.

 

That, and a "Dark" archetype would be ridiculously big. From the Dark counterparts, to silly "Dark" monsters such as Desertapir, Dark Crusader; hell, it would even include Dark Worlds, Dark Scorpions, Dark Magician, etc.

Just a quick note that Dark Crusader released in the same pack as the Dark Counterparts, so it actually isn't a stretch to put it under there. I used to include Shadow Priestess of Ohm as well, since it's a Dark Counterpart to Doriado/Lady of Faith. However, the fact that it can search Reshef the Somehow-LIGHT-Attribute-But-"Dark" Being is a little silly. However, I accounted for the majority of this and hence why I made it a Ritual based archetype. Archfiends also had the same issue, hence why they never can be a good Deck. If they ever made broken Archfiend support that wasn't specific to that Deck's functions, it would break several other Decks. Even Archfiend Heiress and Palabyrinth were splashed into Infernity and even created the Deck known as Berserk Dragon OTK, which suddenly had all of its cards searchable. Unlike Heiress and Palabyrinth, you're not going to splash Alector and Leed into Dark World or Dark Magician Decks to search Dark Magician, Grapha, Dark Magic Attack, or Gates of the Dark World. That would just be silly because it costs another "Dark" monster in your hand (Which is a cost I feel I must emphasize), and you get no REAL benefit. They are just weird technicalities that you could do, but aren't exactly ideal.

[Self-Destruct Button]

Changing their effects to saying "except a Dragon-Type monster" or even "except Dark Armed Dragon" seems like the only solution here, plus it would stop this discussion. Other than that, you could call them "Dark Illusion" or "Dark Mirror", which seems counterpart-ish enough to retain their initial purpose. 

[VampireofDarkness]

Changing their effects to saying "except a Dragon-Type monster" or even "except Dark Armed Dragon" seems like the only solution here, plus it would stop this discussion. Other than that, you could call them "Dark Illusion" or "Dark Mirror", which seems counterpart-ish enough to retain their initial purpose.

I could, I guess, but it just would feel weird because usually that is saved for translations. However, at this point it seems the only happy medium. I'll see what happens with "Except a Dragon-Type monster" and if I ever need to search Rainbow Dark Dragon I'll call out Dark Armed xD

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Dark Armed isn't a problem; it's the Decks that spam DARKs into the Graveyard to SS it that make it abusable.

 

Like I told you in PM, if you need to nerf your Archetype so it doesn't abuse DAD so often, then do it.

I know you spoke with me about the possibility of abusing Simorgh too with your Deck, but that's been fixed.

 

Indeed, adding a restriction on it to limit DAD usage is probably the best solution right now.

 

 

So yeah, while it has potential to be deadly on DP, more of the fault lies in your Archetype.

In short, it should stay.

[VampireofDarkness]

Dark Armed isn't a problem; it's the Decks that spam DARKs into the Graveyard to SS it that make it abusable.

 

Like I told you in PM, if you need to nerf your Archetype so it doesn't abuse DAD so often, then do it.

I know you spoke with me about the possibility of abusing Simorgh too with your Deck, but that's been fixed.

 

Indeed, adding a restriction on it to limit DAD usage is probably the best solution right now.

 

 

So yeah, while it has potential to be deadly on DP, more of the fault lies in your Archetype.

In short, it should stay.

 

We just discussed this, and I plan to specifically exclude DAD in Alector and Grand like how every Frog card tends to exclude "Frog The Jam". As a result, I think this conversation, for now, is closed

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Frog the Jam is some really old card from 2003-ish or something.

 

But indeed, it appears that people think DAD is fine (and you've already decided to fix how your Deck works by not using it), so LOCK