Slinky Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Only image that worked, because Wikia keeps endorsing Vignette into everything now. When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard: Add 1 monsterwith 1500 or less ATK from your Deck to your hand. Would this card really have ever been a problem if Tour Guide didn't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Tour Guide made this consistently searchable and put it right on the Field, which definitely played a major role in banning it. It probably would have been fine without Guide around, but as the game marches on, Sangan's search effect just becomes more and more powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atypical-Abbie Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 A card that searches a little over 2300 monsters? Yeah, a bit of a problem. There's also that it has not cost, cannot miss timing, is not once per turn, and has plenty of other cards that can support it. Konami has even made cards like Shared Ride that joke the fact that it's Forbidden, I doubt it will come back, and I also kind of hope it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 One of Call of the Haunted's best targets. Crane Crane and Scarm destroy this card just like Tour Guide there's also... Other Burning Abyss Honest Kalut Any Plant Quickdraw stuff Debris Dragon Plaguespreader TG Striker/War Wolf Fableds Lumina Kuribandit Mathematician Shadow Mist Blazeman Clausolas U.A.s Spirit Beast Tamers Infernoid Beelzebul Qliphoth Tool Stargaser/Timegaser Kepler/Galilei All Heavy Weight Samurai All Ghosttricks Star Seraph Scepter Morphtronics Rescue Rabbit Herald of Perfection Infernity Necromancer Necroface Grand Mole Frogs Black Salvo Goblindberg Tinplate Goldfish Summoner Monk Skull Servants Phantom of Chaos TMG Metaion Tsukuyomi Magician of Faith and let's not forget Exodia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Except it was too slow at the end of the Synchro Era. The only reason it got banned was because of TGU, and it's too slow for every other deck, even now. Synchrons, Ghostricks, and Shaddolls are like the only places it would be considerable. It's not a fair card, but hardly game breaking if TGU never existed. Even scarm isn't enough to sell it without TGU, because it's too damn slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 It's not a fair card, but hardly game breaking if TGU never existed. Even scarm isn't enough to sell it without TGU, because it's too damn slow. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabenite Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Crane crane itself is a reason that sangan should never see the light of day again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted December 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 No. Yes. Please tell me, what deck would want to waste their normal summon on Sangan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Yes. Please tell me, what deck would want to waste their normal summon on Sangan? You don't. You waste it on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted December 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 So... you'd rather leave a 300 attack monster in attack position, in a Qliphort format just so you can get a free search off of a sangan? Okay, you do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iCherries Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 you could normal summon it after dropping quickdraw if you dont have anything elsei guess?i wouldnt say crane crane has anything to do with keeping sangan banned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 No. Kindly elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Kindly elaborate. It's not slow, and it searches enough one card playmakers that it's worth it even if it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted December 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 It's not slow, and it searches enough one card playmakers that it's worth it even if it was. But it is slow. 1 turn is a really long time in the current format. In BA's it isn't really noticable because they float like all hell, but utilizing it as an engine and you really start seeing how slow it really is. Speaking of the format, this time around, 1 turn is the difference between winning and losing and it really has been like this for a while. Scarm is a great card, but searching another searcher is one of the slowest possible moves you can do in the game in regards to Scarm, as it is effectively a 2 turn wait instead of 1 (1 turn for scarm to search, and another to set Sangan and your opponent to send it to the grave) compared to scarm searching tour guide which would set up a huge plus engine in BA's in 1 turn. The speed isn't even comparable, its that large of a gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 It's not slow, and it searches enough one card playmakers that it's worth it even if it was. "It's not slow, but it is" wut Sangan was outpaced by the game without TGU, as it had begun to be dropped. It wasted a normal summon that could have been, say, a Venus, Earth, Junk Synchron, Lonefire, and so on. It didn't give immediate value, and needed to either be set a turn ahead or have outside value, and then the card it searched (Bar Veiler/Maxx "C") likely had to wait another turn to be of good use to you. Once it was in the grave all was dandy, but not until then. And being a limited card, it wasn't easy to gt it to the grave without gimmicks like Prisma + Sanwitch. What "one card playmakers" does it search that don't conflict with having to NS it in the first place? It searches pendulums worse than Odd-Eyes does. Deskbots, I guess? Unizombie, but Zombies have Goblin Zombie so... Merlin in exchange for going against the entire deck. A couple UAs Ritual Beasts Some Synchrons 3Nekroz I went back 25 pages, on New First, of Sangan targets on DN. None of them are relevant enough when you consider the fact that they lack synergy with Sangan, bar Burning Abyss... who outpace Sangan. That's not every relevant target, but I got bored of clicking next, so I went to your list. Seriously, you made a big pretentious list of targets, but can you tell me one card on there (bar Quickdraw, considering I already stated it's fine with Synchrons) that Sangan isn't a slow searcher for when you remove TGU from the equation and consider that drawing it means it's a wasted NS that could have been better spent? It's bad in most Xyz Centric due to the fact that it does not get its effect off when Xyz'd with and in many cases does not match the required level. It's bad in Pendulums/Qliphucks bar Performapals, because it lacks the ability to be PS'd/has a bad level, meaning that it's likely not going to give you any worth in the long run other than being a dead, slow draw. It's slow in Ritual Beasts, and the deck already has problems starting up at times. do i even need to mention Nekroz Tellars? Dolls? Yang Zing? All of them have good targets, but only dolls and Yang Zing have the slightest synergy with Sangan... and he wastes a precious Normal Summon. HERO... waste of a normal summon Your list is nothing but a scare tactic to back up a hollow point; Without TGU, the card is not a good card at this time, and likely would not have been through the ZeXal era. It is only now finding another home, in theory, after all the time passed. Yes, it's good once you hit it, but it's so slow and it eats up valuable normal summons, which only get MORE valuable as the game goes on, so no, Sangan is not too good, and Crane Crane doesn't make it too good. It's slow, it doesn't search enough quick combo makers, and the only thing it really has going for it is Tour Bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 I knew I forgot one. How about Genex Ally Birdman? Sangan can get him for you, too. Crane Crane Sangan Crane to hand Birdman Goyo? Then you can make Leviair and get something back. I dunno? Tune with whatever you stole with Goyo. Doesn't seem awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted December 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 I knew I forgot one. How about Genex Ally Birdman? Sangan can get him for you, too. Crane Crane Sangan Crane to hand Birdman Goyo? Then you can make Leviair and get something back. I dunno? Tune with whatever you stole with Goyo. Doesn't seem awful. it isn't awful, but it does sound inconsistent. as you actually need Sangan in the grave first, as well as having a Crane Crane on hand, but in a world without TGU, getting Sangan into the grave isn't all that easy, as Math would be a bad option outside of a grave-oriented deck, and Foolish is limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 How does TGU break this??? I know it looks like it does but TGU stops it from being used in a synchro and if it is detached for an xyz then you dont get the search do you? Im so confused..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atypical-Abbie Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 How does TGU break this??? I know it looks like it does but TGU stops it from being used in a synchro and if it is detached for an xyz then you dont get the search do you? Im so confused..... It brings it out fast, searchable card that searches litterally tons of cards is still kind of stupid, even if do have to make it die by battle or an effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 You would have to play around it alot and its still waste because you get more out of NS'ing your BW's from blackwhirlwind but I guess you could run this in BW's????? Cus late game you can just SS your Bora's/gale's etc instead of using your NS for them..... Still clunky and not worth it tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 You would have to play around it alot and its still waste because you get more out of NS'ing your BW's from blackwhirlwind but I guess you could run this in BW's????? Cus late game you can just SS your Bora's/gale's etc instead of using your NS for them..... Still clunky and not worth it tho. TGU makes Samgan a good card attached to a good engine. It's stronger than all of the other alternatives (Pre-Scarm), and gives you value for drawing it, at least in theory. It also searches TGU, which means or enables the engine further. Once it's in the grave, there were always Monster Reborn and Call of the Haunted to reuse it, if you so chose, which made it much more valuable than Normal Summoning it. Sangan is now at "4" as opposed to 1, which means it was much more likely to be used for its effect during the game, which boosted its power level. TGU was still the problem with them, but she did buff Sangan up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Let's not forget when Dino Rabbit was a thing. Tour Guide could be an instant Leviair, or could search Sangan. Sangan in turn can search Tour or Rabbit. And then Rabbit brings out Dolkka or Laggia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Yamiegg Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 It is a very unfair card. It shouldn't search so much stuff in this game. But. As people have already said, in this format, it's too slow. It wouldn't break the meta at all; Qliphort Tool has enough searchers, BAs outpace it swarming-wise by so much it's not worth considering... Tellarknights have Deneb, and Shaddolls may like it to search Math, but that wastes 2 Normal Summons... So what we're looking at is fairness vs impact on the game. I'd say it wouldn't have much impact on the game at all, par some long-time haters screaming in rage. But it's not balanced by design... I'm in favour of putting it at 1 because of its minimal impact, but an intrinsically OP card probably shouldn't be unbanned simply because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 The conversation was more about if TGU was to blame or Sangan was and its impact in the past, not the present... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Could this possibly very maybe come back though? Because its similar to raigeki in the way that its been outsped by the current meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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