Reforming Realistic Cards/Pop Culture Cards

[Blake]

Separate topic because of the fact that the name actually matters, and it's basically 100% agreed on that PC doesn't need to be separate from RC, bar the power level aspect of design.

I propose the names "Modern Cards"/"Modern Design" and "Casual Cards"/"Casual Design", with an explanation of why the names are such, but I want this to be an open discussion because I feel like this can really help us sort out the chaff that CC has accumulated.

I doubt that Design will be used as it makes less sense at a glance to people who don't know, though I do think it sounds better. Then again, it is in the Custom Cards subsection, so that might give it away, but w/e.

tl;dr
RC -> Modern Cards/Design, focus on creating usable cards by taking the power level/current gamestate(s) into account while upholding design standards.
PC -> Casual Cards/Design, focus on making cards for the hell of it without completely shirking design, where most PC cards would fall.
Rules include an explanation of the sections, what falls where, etc., including that pop culture cards CAN go in Modern, but must hold up to the standards in the section.

Might create a little more work for the CC moderators to move, say, PC Topics in Modern that aren't up to snuff to Casual, but that seems like an eventuality anyways.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

To be honest, Nai and I have been discussing something similar to what you have here. (Zex hasn't weighed in though, but he's a busy student)

 

Ideally, making two sections of PC would be a good option (one that can go for RC quality and the other one for flavor's sake).

Given the amount of threads already in the section, it will prove to be a pain moving things around.

 

There's also the case that should this plan fail, reverting everything back to its current state will prove to be a major pain in the neck as well.

 

--

With this change, we can more or less satisfy everyone.

 

For a lot of members who don't play competitive or don't care about the metagame, Casual will be a place for them to design stuff to their own liking.

Admittedly, some of Konami's designs have essentially rendering making certain cards OPed, because of Rulers, Qlips, Shaddolls, BAs and the like.

 

I seem to recall that some newbies complained about us being too competition-driven on our cards, but then again, Black and a few others were justified in their reasoning. (Bringing up that Fire Princess card). On this note, cards like this would still go into the existing Joke Card section.

 

Modern will essentially be how RC is run now, except we'll have a Pop Culture section for people who want to design things to RC standards. As noted earlier, Pop Culture is more or less being structured like that, which is probably driving a lot of members away from the section.

 

(The intent of raising standards in there was explained in an earlier thread; get members to design stuff properly while keeping some of the character's original traits/powers intact)

 

 

There's also an issue with the Written Cards area, both for YGO and the other games, on whether or not to combine the sections or leave them as is.

Personally, I would keep the YGO one separate, but Other TCG can afford a merger, with the consideration that not too many members frequent the area (outside of Black, Koko, Rod and some others).

 

Pop Culture cards aren't inherently bad like in the past; they warrant a review like every non-PC related card in RC, so why don't we give them that.

 

---

You all should weigh in with your own thoughts while we discuss this issue in PM.

[Blake]

No need to separate Pop Culture at all.

Just makes them general sections where you can post Goku, so long as they're at least trying to be actually designed. And if they're being tuned to even Modern Cards/Design standards, they can go there. No reason to go against cards just because they're Pop Culture based. Only reason Koko and I ever did was because the section often was more joke than not, but the argument for merging it back to MC/CC is real, especially if people are willing to make it work.

Adding 2 PC sections instead of just merging it is just adding more convolution for no reason and backpedaling.

[Flame Dragon]

Agree with what your saying. My only thing would be to have "competitive" be the label and not "modern". Since that spells out exactly what is being expected of the cards, that they are designed with competitive knowledge and with competitive play in mind.

As for written, it can go either way for Yugioh, but for Other TCGs its fine. The section doesn't see TONS of use and adding a subsection seems unneeded.

[Blake]

Agree with what your saying. My only thing would be to have "competitive" be the label and not "modern". Since that spells out exactly what is being expected of the cards, that they are designed with competitive knowledge and with competitive play in mind.

As for written, it can go either way for Yugioh, but for Other TCGs its fine. The section doesn't see TONS of use and adding a subsection seems unneeded.

Competitive and Casual is also a much more standoffish way to put the section, and is a major reason I was opposed to the move before (also the lack of merging PC into RC as part of it).

Modern was actually a term I chose to borrow from MTG, as it would refer to the Modern gamestate. They don't even have to be cards truly competitively designed- Again, Phantom Mailady- but with true potential in the gamestate somewhere along the line. I can make a card like... hm... Smarfon.

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Morphtronic_Smarfon

This guy wouldn't go in Modern, despite being recently printed. He'd go into Casual. He doesn't elevate the deck to any new level, he's just a silly support for a Tier 75325 deck that makes it marginally better.

On the other hand, though, we have this:

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Blaze_Accelerator_Magazine

It's not the best design ever, but it is a card designed to push an archetype with the latent potential that Modern should be working with (granted volcanics aren't good, but general idea) up a notch, and the deck is a pretty good pet deck that could possibly steal some games as a rogue. It takes what the archetype has, and breathes new life into it.

Both of these cards are from the latest set, The Secret of Evolution/Secrets of Eternity. But they're both very, very good examples of "Casual" against "Modern" design.

So that it's here as well.

[Darj]

I thought I had the idea of what you meant with Modern(MD) vs. Casual (CD), but the example you gave clouded it.

So, if I got it right, for a card to be in MD, it needs to have an hypothetical impact in the metagame, even if it could potentially be badly designed? Wouldn't that be unhealthy for YCM? I mean, the MD section would encourage the creation of badly designed cards in YCM, simply because, more often than not, that's what it takes to stand in this power creeped metagame nowadays. This may be a bit of an stretch, but wouldn't it be like justifying an unfair card with an argument such as "yes, card is broken, but so are Qliphorts so it's fine"?

 

On the other hand, a CD section could stimulate the creation of bad cards (either weak traits, or overpowered ones) for the sake of flavor. Wouldn't that be bad for YCM as well? For instance, if a member post a cards in MD and it is not good enough, instead of being properly fixed or being given advice, it may be moved to CD and problem solved, except that the card creator wouldn't have learn anything.

 

Then again, I'm not sure of what exactly you mean with MD vs. CD, so please correct me if I got something wrong.

[Blake]

The point I was going for is that a card with potential impact can be placed in MC while CC would be Smarfon.

You could put Accelerator in there to be fixed up, for example. This goes back to further enabling the abilities for communities to come together and fix cards, but requiring effort on the part of the designer in the first place.

The main problem with Accelerator is the foolish effect triggering a quick play raigeki, and it's otherwise fine. If it mitigated the raigeiki in its second effect's design, it would be pretty much golden, as the only other problem with it is a walking Avarice that shouldn't exist.

MC is meant as a higher plain of both design and impact, which takes a lot more effort to get correct. Not straight bad design, but more difficult design.

Rituals are an example of a harder to design mechanic, and they'd probably end up in CC most times due to not being up to snuff/being too good.

[Darj]

That more or less clear things up.

Either way, splitting "modern" and "casual" shouldn't be bad, unless the majority of the community decides to stick with casual cards and forsake the "modern" section, but I that that would be unlikely to happen, so this suggestion gets my support.

[Flame Dragon]

The point I was going for is that a card with potential impact can be placed in MC while CC would be Smarfon.

You could put Accelerator in there to be fixed up, for example. This goes back to further enabling the abilities for communities to come together and fix cards, but requiring effort on the part of the designer in the first place.

The main problem with Accelerator is the foolish effect triggering a quick play raigeki, and it's otherwise fine. If it mitigated the raigeiki in its second effect's design, it would be pretty much golden, as the only other problem with it is a walking Avarice that shouldn't exist.

MC is meant as a higher plain of both design and impact, which takes a lot more effort to get correct. Not straight bad design, but more difficult design.

Rituals are an example of a harder to design mechanic, and they'd probably end up in CC most times due to not being up to snuff/being too good.

See, this is why I'm not sure why you don't like competitive since that seems to be what your looking for. I understand why it would have issues since it seems a lot more exclusive and what not, but it matches with what you'd expect from the cards there. Not every card would be able to make the grade, but they will be made with the intent that they might have some application there. See, when you say modern it sounds like how cards are being made in recent sets and that would cause problems, since as you pointed out, not every card in a set can be made for competitive play.

[Blake]

That's because Konami is lazy and prints a fuck ton of filler

Not only is competitive more exclusive sounding, but a card like Accelerator really isn't competitive. It's designed more like a competitive card, but it's not one itself.

Competitive opens up design like Qliphorts and Burning Abyss and... Basically every archetype DUEA onward that is over the top in its design in some form or another.

Though, Competitive Design does has a ring. Design has a better ring in general, but it also sounds less approachable.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Based on your description of what Modern should be, it gives off the vibe that cards must be competitive (hence the name "Competitive Cards" would be more appropriate sounding). 

Like you mentioned though, it doesn't need to; if it were the case, we'd have almost carbon copies of Qlips and whatever cards people hate right now. 

 

But here's the thing. 

 

If we split CC into Modern and Casual, keep in mind that Singles/Multiples for each section will need to be split up; in addition to a new Other TCG section [assuming one is for impact on the game + another is just for casual reasons]. Although, most of Other TCG posters are generally the same ones; so it's a toss-up whether or not we make a casual section for them or simply just relegate that whole area to Modern. 

 

Then there is the issue with Experimental Cards (main section). Should it moved into Modern or Casual, given that ideas tend to differ quite a bit (from being effective in today's game to fun but gimmicky). Probably thinking Casual for the most part (Joke Cards definitely stays in that section, with post count disabled)

 

 

I'm in favor of making a casual section for members to just design as they will [provided some degree of balance is followed], but right now there's a lot of uncertainty on how things are going to be structured in this new system. 

[Flame Dragon]

That's because Konami is lazy and prints a fuck ton of filler

Not only is competitive more exclusive sounding, but a card like Accelerator really isn't competitive. It's designed more like a competitive card, but it's not one itself.

Competitive opens up design like Qliphorts and Burning Abyss and... Basically every archetype DUEA onward that is over the top in its design in some form or another.

Though, Competitive Design does has a ring. Design has a better ring in general, but it also sounds less approachable.

See, I think it would be pretty hard for the bulk of the set to be relevant in a competitive environment. Like, by its nature even if every card is made to have a place there, only a small percent would make it. This isn't helped that cards need to compete with everything in the game. Though it is true that Yugioh likely has too much garbage, something not helped that it doesn't (to my knowledge) have something like MTG's limited played to give the crap some use.

I can see that being a problem, but I think that's owed to the archetype itself not being competitive. A strong card can't help a weak archetype. I'd assume the majority of the users of the section would know this. New players would have issues, but I feel like that is true in general. The section could have a disclaimer to recommend newer members to the more fitting sections.

 

I also don't see the need for single cards and multiple cards, since it doesn't seem to me to add much.

[Blake]

Just makes sets a sub section of Modern/Casual, just like 1v1 is to contests.

It clears up forum space while also ply slightly decreasing activity in those sections, if at all.

Experimental doesn't need to exist. As Rai said in the other thread, the fact that the game evolves so fast (every 3-4 years) really makes it so that new mechanics are nothing special. And if it's for adapting anime cards, that's just a redundant space.

AoC was never anything but Casual with a worse connotation and lower expectations, anyways, so for a more accurate idea of what you should do:

RC -> Modern or equivalent name
EC -> Casual
PC -> Dissolved into Modern and Casual
Card Contests -> Maybe clean up the subsections
JC -> tuck it away as a subsection of casual

The dissolve Multiple Cards and place it as a subsection under Modern and underneath Casual, with the main section for singles. That's self-explanatory enough.

Unless I misremembered where they were before separation, because I do remember people being blind and constantly posting sets in singles to my chagrin.

[Flame Dragon]

Just makes sets a sub section of Modern/Casual, just like 1v1 is to contests.

It clears up forum space while also ply slightly decreasing activity in those sections, if at all.

Experimental doesn't need to exist. As Rai said in the other thread, the fact that the game evolves so fast (every 3-4 years) really makes it so that new mechanics are nothing special. And if it's for adapting anime cards, that's just a redundant space.

AoC was never anything but Casual with a worse connotation and lower expectations, anyways, so for a more accurate idea of what you should do:

RC -> Modern or equivalent name
EC -> Casual
PC -> Dissolved into Modern and Casual
Card Contests -> Maybe clean up the subsections
JC -> tuck it away as a subsection of casual

The dissolve Multiple Cards and place it as a subsection under Modern and underneath Casual, with the main section for singles. That's self-explanatory enough.

Unless I misremembered where they were before separation, because I do remember people being blind and constantly posting sets in singles to my chagrin.

This seems like a good set up imo.

[Blake]

See, I think it would be pretty hard for the bulk of the set to be relevant in a competitive environment. Like, by its nature even if every card is made to have a place there, only a small percent would make it. This isn't helped that cards need to compete with everything in the game. Though it is true that Yugioh likely has too much garbage, something not helped that it doesn't (to my knowledge) have something like MTG's limited played to give the crap some use.

I can see that being a problem, but I think that's owed to the archetype itself not being competitive. A strong card can't help a weak archetype. I'd assume the majority of the users of the section would know this. New players would have issues, but I feel like that is true in general. The section could have a disclaimer to recommend newer members to the more fitting sections.

I also don't see the need for single cards and multiple cards, since it doesn't seem to me to add much.

It would be, and filler is needed, but bar side sets... The amount of filler is too damn high, even support for archetypes (Hexatellar for example) is sometimes trash.

Again, Accelerator really helps a weak archetype. Batteryman 9V was the glue a disjointed and apparently weak archetype needed. Now people realize it was full of bork shit. It's possible to make a card/cards to help a weaker set of cards out, and while neither of the former examples are the best design (koonmai doesn't even try most times), they are examples of how you can make weak decks stronger. Just have to think ahead and plan, which is what the supposed Modern would strive for.

Trust me, as a former CC mod, separating sets from singles increased activity and reduced clutter.

[Flame Dragon]

Again, Accelerator really helps a weak archetype. Batteryman 9V was the glue a disjointed and apparently weak archetype needed. Now people realize it was full of bork shit. It's possible to make a card/cards to help a weaker set of cards out, and while neither of the former examples are the best design (koonmai doesn't even try most times), they are examples of how you can make weak decks stronger. Just have to think ahead and plan, which is what the supposed Modern would strive for.

Trust me, as a former CC mod, separating sets from singles increased activity and reduced clutter.

I can certainly see why those cards would fall under the gray area and cause problems. What to do with them is certainly something that would need a fair bit of thinking. And yea, Konami has to deal with all the other stupid stuff they've printed over the years, so to keep new things in the running they need to get really busted cards too. That was the nature of the beast way back when I still played and still seems to be now.

I'll take your word for it.

[Blake]

Also, I was thinking

Another way to separate Modern from Casual is to ask for the poster to give at least some input on their card in the OP.

Not like old Advanced Clause attempts, but just ask them to write a blurb explaining at least something about the way they designed it or the reason why.

[Flame Dragon]

Also, I was thinking

Another way to separate Modern from Casual is to ask for the poster to give at least some input on their card in the OP.

Not like old Advanced Clause attempts, but just ask them to write a blurb explaining at least something about the way they designed it or the reason why.

That would be another way to help with the distinction. It demands more thought to be put into the card since your going to have to write it out as well as helping to people commenting on it offer suggestions that stay true to the idea.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Sounds fair enough for Modern.

At least we have a better idea of what you're going for, so it can be graded + given fixes accordingly. 

 

I think 3-5 sentences should be sufficient enough to give an idea of what you were aiming for in its design. 

 

 

 

Think I mentioned something about Written in the other threads...

[I Hate Snatch Steal]

I'm in favor of allowing seriously designed pop culture cards in Realistic Cards. Or another plan that lets people find good pop culture designs to review without having to sift through the other pop culture designs with barely readable card grammar and so on.

 

I like to think that I at least try to take pop culture designing seriously, since I make almost every card, pop culture or not, with the intent of using it. (Yes, I do make mistakes or have failed experiments sometimes though)

[Cool Girl]

I think instead of realistic card (2+), we should replace the names with "archetypes" because most people that visit that category post archetypes.

[Cierfrost]

There's also an issue with the Written Cards area, both for YGO and the other games, on whether or not to combine the sections or leave them as is.

 

Just combine them. Written Cards as its own entity has always has a glorious place on this site. Its generally where the less graphically inclined, more idea oriented and busy people go to make cards. Making it out of reach as it is is bad for it. PC should be its own entity as well, if nothing else to let people roleplay in their own little cliques than inevitably form in such an environment. Let them roam, however like stated letting PCards that are really sat down for more than "oooooo naruto" in the rules to be posted in the dominant section would be favorable.

 

After talking to Josh (the topic poster/OP) though, calling out the names for being mindnumbing blunt but better... Modern while still more distasteful than Realistic is far better than most alternatives I've heard over the years. 

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Just as a heads-up. 

 

CC is currently being reformatted to reflect the changes discussed here + in PM amongst the other mods.

Please do not be alarmed if the section appears radically different.

 

For reference, this is what the new layout will be. 

 

Modern

- Multiples (essentially for sets; no distinction on Written or picture)

- Other TCG

   - Multiples

Casual

- Multiples

- Experimental

   - Joke Cards

Card Contests

- 1v1s

- Other Contests

  - Other 1v1s

 

Last two have been dead since their creation, yes, but they're there for those of you who want to compete against each other in cardmaking for CFV, MtG or whatever other card game you play.

 

Finished Contests will most likely remain as is; subsections in the area. 

 

Written Cards will be merged with the general cards; but given some are archived, not everything can be moved. 

 

Changes shouldn't take more than an hour or so.

We ask that you all remain patient until the changes are complete. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Just quoting to get your attention

I saw this, and I thought, maybe it would be a good idea to, especially when it's around this time when things go slower, post a status when you're moving things around and renaming.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Yeah, that would've been a good idea to have given a status; but more or less, the renovation is finished.

The format is essentially whatever I wrote in the floor plan.

 

As much as I'd like to delete the unneeded forums, I don't have the necessary permissions, so will need to consult with Night to deal with those.