all of these useles subforums in custom cards need to be removed

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Okay so I have to point out one thing I have a big issue with.

"The forum has never been nor should ever be "I made this now fix it"

 

I disagree. I see no issue at all with making a card with flaws and working with people here to fix it. In fact, I'd prefer that. Otherwise it would just be "Hey look how awesome at card making I am, tell me how good I did." Which is totally pointless.

 

Anyway, how does this relate to merging or not merging the subforums again?

[Blake]

Okay so I have to point out one thing I have a big issue with.
"The forum has never been nor should ever be "I made this now fix it"
 
I disagree. I see no issue at all with making a card with flaws and working with people here to fix it. In fact, I'd prefer that. Otherwise it would just be "Hey look how awesome at card making I am, tell me how good I did." Which is totally pointless.
 
Anyway, how does this relate to merging or not merging the subforums again?

You misunderstood my point.

It should be fixing it as a community, but you should first do it to the best of your ability, not just slap something together.

It's about PC and flavor and stuff.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Oh sorry Black, that's more understandable.

 

Now, was thinking. The biggest issue I can see now. Is that people's definition of what "serious" design and "causal" design is. Since everyone has different standards.

[Flame Dragon]

You should be trying to design it with the power level in mind in the first place. The forum has never been nor should ever be "I made this now fix it", as that just encourages mindless posting. Design DOES include power level in its equation, and to omit it from design here is just eliminating almost any sort of effort put into design. Flavor can come through, but that's it.
 
I spent time and effort designing it because, while feedback is nice and can help you see what you've done wrong, you should know what you're doing in the first place before you post. Not so much newer members, obviously, but members who have been here a while. What you describe is the case for newer members, not veterans... and we have veterans that need to improve just like newbies, so why would we use a system that's only catered to drawing people in as opposed to working through it after drawing them in?
 

Noble Knights are equipment based. They've always been either insanely inconsistent, had stupid one-off plays/power cards, or both. All three of the designes you mentioned were used by the deck.

And the power cards aren't even that powerful to the gamestate, so they did end up flopping, despite many stupid design choices (Medraut, Merlin, etc.)

Fine tuning in those manners you mentioned doesn't change the deck at all, really.

 

 

Something I've been very upfront about is that I have't played Yugioh in a long time, so current examples of flavor and what not is something I wouldn't know. Honestly, it is for this reason I don't normally involve myself with CC, but I feel I can talk on subject of card design to some degree, which is why I'm not just conceding this to be an area outside of my range. As such, I'm going to focus on these particular things. 

 

Which is what I said. I don't think people should just throw ideas out there and make people do the work for them. But so long as the cards initial design is in the right ball park, this is all that is needed imo. Designing from a flavor stand point vs. designing from a mechanical stand point shouldn't change this.

 

We SHOULD have a system that works to draws new people in. I don't see how this system is bad for veteran members though since they should still be getting the same level of feedback on their designs as they would before. Only now your encouraging new members to come in and improve. 

 

But that doesn't say anything about the design idea. I looked over some of the designs of the Noble Knights and I like the idea as a whole. Some things have power level issues, but I'd put that on them needing to push cards to try to make things viable. So why can't I post this card in RC

Might have power level issues, but the card design seems fine and the only thing currently keeping it from RC is that it is Link.

[Blake]

Which is what I said. I don't think people should just throw ideas out there and make people do the work for them. But so long as the cards initial design is in the right ball park, this is all that is needed imo. Designing from a flavor stand point vs. designing from a mechanical stand point shouldn't change this.
 
We SHOULD have a system that works to draws new people in. I don't see how this system is bad for veteran members though since they should still be getting the same level of feedback on their designs as they would before. Only now your encouraging new members to come in and improve.

Improving without understanding is not optimal, and that's what your first point is. The intent of design does not matter in the least unless it matches up to the execution, such with my Phantom Mailady.

The system does draw in new members. You do treat new members like that. You even treat old members like that (I do it to Sakura fairly regularly), but that's not what the section should be striving for. The section should be for improving, not "i threw this out fix it", which, while that is not the intent of your ideal setting, is what it is in execution. All the work Koko and I did on CC improved it by moving away from the old mentality you're clinging to. That mentality is fine in theory, but it does not work on paper as people stop caring to try for themselves more often than not, and just expect the community to pick up the slack. This is why, with veteran members, they are generally held to higher standards, at least by the community. So that they can continue to improve alongside the community, but they do not lean on the community to do it.
 

But that doesn't say anything about the design idea. I looked over some of the designs of the Noble Knights and I like the idea as a whole. Some things have power level issues, but I'd put that on them needing to push cards to try to make things viable. So why can't I post this card in RC

Might have power level issues, but the card design seems fine and the only thing currently keeping it from RC is that it is Link.

Power level is a part of design, at least in YGO. It's not just development as you keep trying to box it into. Medraut, Merlin, Last Chapter, and a few others are not healthy design in any way, shape, or form, whereas others can be. The idea isn't bad as a whole, but the point remains that almost none of it was executed well (caliburn is actually a pretty cool card), despite your points that those types of design could work it.

You cannot continue to separate power level from design, as power level is one of the strongest factors in design in Yu-Gi-Oh!.

It's not fit for RC in the least because, as I've explained multiple times, RC is "Modern Design". And I've been saying this all along, and you've just... ignored the point for some reason.

PC is very flavor oriented, to the point that it can impede design by making it way too strong or way too weak, Link being an example of the latter due to how slow it is.

You can't just throw PC into RC -as is- because RC is "Modern Design". If we had a "Modern Card" and "Casual Card" section, it would be fine as opposed to RC/PC, but that doesn't change that RC is not ready to receive PC at present. I even agree PC shouldn't have to hide in its corner instead of being acceptable in RC, and it very well could be done well in RC/Modern Design, but it would take a lot more effort than the site generally gives to PC. It would make sense for them to go into either, but I believe that changing the sections into "Modern Cards/Design" and "Casual Cards/Design" would be much more fitting on the whole, as PC could go in either on the basis that it's executed properly for that section.

I'm not even sure Casual's the proper term, but Modern is definitely a more fitting term than what I've heard tossed around for similar ideas to this before, and the concept bothered me because of how the distinction was drawn.

[Flame Dragon]

Improving without understanding is not optimal, and that's what your first point is. The intent of design does not matter in the least unless it matches up to the execution, such with my Phantom Mailady.

Why wouldn't they have understanding? People would explain what changes they should make and they should be able to figure why those changes should be made from that. They will learn as a result.
 

The system does draw in new members. You do treat new members like that. You even treat old members like that (I do it to Sakura fairly regularly), but that's not what the section should be striving for. The section should be for improving, not "i threw this out fix it", which, while that is not the intent of your ideal setting, is what it is in execution. All the work Koko and I did on CC improved it by moving away from the old mentality you're clinging to. That mentality is fine in theory, but it does not work on paper as people stop caring to try for themselves more often than not, and just expect the community to pick up the slack. This is why, with veteran members, they are generally held to higher standards, at least by the community. So that they can continue to improve alongside the community, but they do not lean on the community to do it.

Again, I can't speak for what CC has been like since 2009 since that was when I stopped frequenting it. It certainly could be that I'm assuming to much that people would want to learn and improve more than they do.
 

Power level is a part of design, at least in YGO. It's not just development as you keep trying to box it into. Medraut, Merlin, Last Chapter, and a few others are not healthy design in any way, shape, or form, whereas others can be. The idea isn't bad as a whole, but the point remains that almost none of it was executed well (caliburn is actually a pretty cool card), despite your points that those types of design could work it.

As said, some designs are just undevelopable. I wasn't talking about those specifically. I was speaking about the archetype as a whole. It is a very interesting idea and an interesting design vein. Like, if I still knew anything about Yugioh I would have fun trying to design cards around those 3 parameters I listed before. Also, I'd argue that Last Chapter can stay true to the design and made fair by returning the cards to your hand.
 

You cannot continue to separate power level from design, as power level is one of the strongest factors in design in Yu-Gi-Oh!.

I can understand this comment. Yugioh has a much higher power level bar because it only keeps adding to the system (with bans here and there) so if you want the cards to be worth while you need to understand it. This is why you get those broken cards you listed above since they need to push things if they want players to care about them.
 

It's not fit for RC in the least because, as I've explained multiple times, RC is "Modern Design". And I've been saying this all along, and you've just... ignored the point for some reason.

PC is very flavor oriented, to the point that it can impede design by making it way too strong or way too weak, Link being an example of the latter due to how slow it is.

But that doesn't make it unrealistic. Nothing about that card is married to the flavor. I can design a card with the exact effect, and just give it a new coat of paint and I would, by the current system, post it into RC. Like, if I removed the Standby Phase clause and increased some of the numbers I'm still staying true to the design intent and have made it a lot more powerful. If you want to divid it along that line, fine, but flavor isn't the correct way. And again, I haven't touched Yugioh in years so my ability to get power level in the right place is far off.
 

You can't just throw PC into RC -as is- because RC is "Modern Design". If we had a "Modern Card" and "Casual Card" section, it would be fine as opposed to RC/PC, but that doesn't change that RC is not ready to receive PC at present. I even agree PC shouldn't have to hide in its corner instead of being acceptable in RC, and it very well could be done well in RC/Modern Design, but it would take a lot more effort than the site generally gives to PC. It would make sense for them to go into either, but I believe that changing the sections into "Modern Cards/Design" and "Casual Cards/Design" would be much more fitting on the whole, as PC could go in either on the basis that it's executed properly for that section.

Your point of "PC could go in either on the basis that it's executed properly for that section." is ultimately what I'm trying to say. Again, I know nothing of the current state of CC, so I'll take your word for the designs of the cards in PC are subpar.
 

I'm not even sure Casual's the proper term, but Modern is definitely a more fitting term than what I've heard tossed around for similar ideas to this before, and the concept bothered me because of how the distinction was drawn.

I don't think "Modern" design says what you want. Modern can mean a lot of things about the current state of Yugioh design. It seems to me that you want "Modern" to be cards designed with competitive play in mind. As said, I'm fine with dividing along these lines. It would force people to have a better understanding of Yugioh. Just, what I'd want, is to be able to work people from "casual" into the "competitive" section.

Edit: I see you made a thread for this, and I agree this deserves its own section.

[Blake]

Why wouldn't they have understanding? People would explain what changes they should make and they should be able to figure why those changes should be made from that. They will learn as a result.

Again, I can't speak for what CC has been like since 2009 since that was when I stopped frequenting it. It certainly could be that I'm assuming to much that people would want to learn and improve more than they do.

Compiling these because you summed it up yourself.

You're putting too much stock in the random human being.

As said, some designs are just undevelopable. I wasn't talking about those specifically. I was speaking about the archetype as a whole. It is a very interesting idea and an interesting design vein. Like, if I still knew anything about Yugioh I would have fun trying to design cards around those 3 parameters I listed before. Also, I'd argue that Last Chapter can stay true to the design and made fair by returning the cards to your hand.

I suppose the point on Last Chapter is fair enough, though I think the idea was to speed you into a secondary summon after getting an effect. Biggest offender to it that isn't one anywas is Drystan, which isn't the worst on its own though not the best either.

But that doesn't make it unrealistic. Nothing about that card is married to the flavor. I can design a card with the exact effect, and just give it a new coat of paint and I would, by the current system, post it into RC. Like, if I removed the Standby Phase clause and increased some of the numbers I'm still staying true to the design intent and have made it a lot more powerful. If you want to divid it along that line, fine, but flavor isn't the correct way. And again, I haven't touched Yugioh in years so my ability to get power level in the right place is far off.

And I don't think such is fine, either. The card shouldn't be there anyways, regardless of if it's PC or not. And as you said, PC is generally grounded in flavor that can overtake the design completely. The fact that it won't always doesn't change that it usually does.

I don't think "Modern" design says what you want. Modern can mean a lot of things about the current state of Yugioh design. It seems to me that you want "Modern" to be cards designed with competitive play in mind. As said, I'm fine with dividing along these lines. It would force people to have a better understanding of Yugioh. Just, what I'd want, is to be able to work people from "casual" into the "competitive" section.

Competitive and Casual is also a much more standoffish way to put the section, and is a major reason I was opposed to the move before (also the lack of merging PC into RC as part of it).

Modern was actually a term I chose to borrow from MTG, as it would refer to the Modern gamestate. They don't even have to be cards truly competitively designed- Again, Phantom Mailady- but with true potential in the gamestate somewhere along the line. I can make a card like... hm... Smarfon.

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Morphtronic_Smarfon

This guy wouldn't go in Modern, despite being recently printed. He'd go into Casual. He doesn't elevate the deck to any new level, he's just a silly support for a Tier 75325 deck that makes it marginally better.

On the other hand, though, we have this:

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Blaze_Accelerator_Magazine

It's not the best design ever, but it is a card designed to push an archetype with the latent potential that Modern should be working with (granted volcanics aren't good, but general idea) up a notch, and the deck is a pretty good pet deck that could possibly steal some games as a rogue. It takes what the archetype has, and breathes new life into it.

Both of these cards are from the latest set, The Secret of Evolution/Secrets of Eternity. But they're both very, very good examples of "Casual" against "Modern" design.