Instant Fusion = Instant Rank 4?

[Spenсe]

So this came out a few month ago. This legitmately makes Instant Fusion a viable tech in any deck that runs rank 4s. Plus, its a water, so imagine how good it'll be in Merlanteans. Instant Bahamut Shark+Dragoons search for just 1000 life points?

 

 

Elder God Noden

 

 

1 Synchro or Xyz Monster + 1 Synchro or Xyz Monster
When this card is Special Summoned: You can target 1 Level 4 or lower monster in your Graveyard; Special Summon it. Its effects are negated, also banish it when this card leaves the field.

[Toffee.]

It's Fairy for Cheer Girl and WATER for Abyss Dweller

And the rest is history.

[Blake]

"Tech"

 

It's more than a tech, it's pretty much a damn staple for wherever has it and can use it to any decent degree.

[Goose]

It should have only worked when fusion summoned with the above materials [/obvious]

[Spenсe]

This card works really well with any deck that can main deck superpoly too (also makes superpoly a good sidedeck for pretty much any deck). Heroes+shadolls greatly benefit from this card. Man, the possiblities are endless with this...

[Darj]

Anything that deals with Level 4s benefits from this.

 

From looking at the card in DN, I always thought Noden was a young man with long, gray hair, and the thing on his neck was some kind of scarf, but looking at the artwork in the OP I now realize it is an old man and that "scarf" is actually his beard.

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

What annoys me about this card is that it is part of a separate OCG from the regular release, but still gets counted as OCG, thus duel simulators treat it as legal in OCG, thus [s]shenanigans[/s] all the abuse.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Thankfully it'll be legal in OCG soon.

[Wildflame]

Yeah..., that's the idea...

 

Thankfully it'll be legal in OCG soon.

 

Can't really say I'm thankful for that, specially with OCG still having Shocky around.

[Daigusto Sphreez]

I don't think its a staple for all decks running rank 4s, depends how dedicated it is, since 15 slots doesn't allow for much flexibility. 

[玄魔の王]

Oh man the shenanigans to be had when the Water Doll comes out...

[CLG Klavier]

How is it going to be released in legit OCG btw?

[Zauls]

It can also be revived by something like Call of the Haunted for an instant Rank 4, which is ridiculous for decks that actually run Call. I really hope this thing doesn't get printed in TCG without Instant Fusion getting banned or terrible things will happen. 

[Maeriberii Haan]

How is it going to be released in legit OCG btw?

 

An OCG pack filled with other region's exclusives, but forgot the name.

[Blake]

An OCG pack filled with other region's exclusives, but forgot the name.

Extra Pack (maybe a number here): Knights of Order

[Bringerofcake]

It also hands a VERY powerful weapon to everyone in the form of Super Poly. Turns two of whatever they have into a Rank 4/Synchro whatever for you.

[Spenсe]

I think a quick fix solution to this without the need to ban Instant Fusion (which helps a lot of decks add speed even without this card) is a simple errata. Make it so Instant Fusion negates the effs of the summoned monster (this is pretty much its use right now since all the monsters it can get are essentially vanillas). The only monster the gets affected by this is Ojama Knight, which isn't played anyway.

[Blake]

I think a quick fix solution to this without the need to ban Instant Fusion (which helps a lot of decks add speed even without this card) is a simple errata. Make it so Instant Fusion negates the effs of the summoned monster (this is pretty much its use right now since all the monsters it can get are essentially vanillas). The only monster the gets affected by this is Ojama Knight, which isn't played anyway.

But Instant Fusion is not and has never been healthy for the game. Even negating effects doesn't make it entirely healthy because the idea of "oh i just drew whatever fodder I needed" isn't a good concept to work on.

 

Not to mention that power level errata isn't a good thing and shouldn't be encouraged.

[Spenсe]

But Instant Fusion is not and has never been healthy for the game. Even negating effects doesn't make it entirely healthy because the idea of "oh i just drew whatever fodder I needed" isn't a good concept to work on.

I think it's fine at that point. Its not very abusable and demands space in extra deck, which is becoming increasingly hard to do. It's a potential dead draw and doesn't create any card advantage, so not many decks would tech it. Adding consistency to a deck isn't exactly unhealthy.

[Blake]

I think it's fine at that point. Its not very abusable and demands space in extra deck, which is becoming increasingly hard to do. It's a potential dead draw and doesn't create any card advantage, so not many decks would tech it. Adding consistency to a deck isn't exactly unhealthy.

That doesn't make it fine.

 

It's still abusable. Decks like Infernity that don't want too many monsters but want as many monsters on the board, for example, still value it a lot. Same with Madolche at times, though for different reasons.

 

It's never, ever fueling any healthy decks, unless it's some T5 pet deck. Nto creating card advantage does not excuse a costless 1-5, especially when most Xyz don't care if they're made on a neg.

[Spenсe]

That doesn't make it fine.

 

It's still abusable. Decks like Infernity that don't want too many monsters but want as many monsters on the board, for example, still value it a lot. Same with Madolche at times, though for different reasons.

 

It's never, ever fueling any healthy decks, unless it's some T5 pet deck. Nto creating card advantage does not excuse a costless 1-5, especially when most Xyz don't care if they're made on a neg.

Abusable =/= usable. Just cause it CAN be used, doesn't mean it's automatically broken (logic?). As long as the targets for it are reasonable, this card is fairly balanced. Infernity is basically the only deck that commonly plays this card (even then, they don't need it).

 

Also, when did -1000 LP become costless? People need to stop thinking LP doesn't matter. IT DOES, especially in a format that is dominated by Soul Charge. Sure, the cost isn't a lot, but still makes it a potential dead draw and 1 less soul charge target. Plus, in tournaments, LP can impact a duel if you get into time. Making room in extra deck is, in my opinion, another cost for playing the card (and also furthering the chances of a dead draw).

[Blake]

Abusable =/= usable. Just cause it CAN be used, doesn't mean it's automatically broken (logic?). As long as the targets for it are reasonable, this card is fairly balanced. Infernity is basically the only deck that commonly plays this card (even then, they don't need it).

 

Also, when did -1000 LP become costless? People need to stop thinking LP doesn't matter. IT DOES, especially in a format that is dominated by Soul Charge. Sure, the cost isn't a lot, but still makes it a potential dead draw and 1 less soul charge target. Plus, in tournaments, LP can impact a duel if you get into time. Making room in extra deck is, in my opinion, another cost for playing the card (and also furthering the chances of a dead draw).

So instead of supplying an argument, you put words in my mouth? I just gave examples of how the only good uses for it are unhealthy uses, and you offered no counterargument. You also used the word "broken", which shows you're thinking in incredibly broad black and white terms that devalue the nature and depth of your argument. A card does not have to be broken to be bad or unhealthy design.

 

I do think it matters. Because it does, which is why I believe that Threatening Roar is only getting better, because each LP counts. This is especially true post-NECH. But that doesn't make it a hefty cost, either. 1000 LP doesn't mean s*** in the grand scheme, and it's only going to dead draw late, and only then if you blew your LP/were topdecking anyways. Being one less Soul Charge isn't a really solid argument, considering it's not universally going to be the case. It is true, but it's an almost niche scenario argument. Your entire argument you've supplied, bar the ED mention, boils down to "it's bad when you're cornered".

 

Time seems like a really niche and bad argument. Yeah, it's there, but it doesn't speak to design in general, nor balance if we were arguing that.

 

Most decks don't NEED all 15 ED slots anyways, so not really. They just fill them with extra copies of answers, and the only real thing that this will overshadow more often than not is extra copies of Dweller.

 

And the format isn't dominated by Soul Charge. Shaddolls run no more than 1 Charge because it has no real place in the deck, and Dolls are the deck to beat. Batterymen are also pretty good, but they aren't quite the deck to beat.

 

Burning Abyss have potential as a REDRUM.dek, but that doesn't make them a top deck.

 

And post-NECH, Soul Charge isn't used in Qliphorts, either... and Batterymen aren't worth running as much. And Yang Zing still won't be good enough to be a top deck.

[Spenсe]

So instead of supplying an argument, you put words in my mouth? I just gave examples of how the only good uses for it are unhealthy uses, and you offered no counterargument. You also used the word "broken", which shows you're thinking in incredibly broad black and white terms that devalue the nature and depth of your argument. A card does not have to be broken to be bad or unhealthy design.

 

 You clearly were arguing how abusable and broken the card was (it doesn't even make sense in another context). If you're not arguing that, why the f*** are we arguing?

 

I think the whole "unhealthy decks" thing is very subjective. What you don't want to see being played doesn't mean the deck doesn't deserve to be played. Plus, infernities is one of the few decks left that require a huge amount of skill. I really don't see how its unhealthy.

 

I do think it matters. Because it does, which is why I believe that Threatening Roar is only getting better, because each LP counts. This is especially true post-NECH. But that doesn't make it a hefty cost, either. 1000 LP doesn't mean s*** in the grand scheme, and it's only going to dead draw late, and only then if you blew your LP/were topdecking anyways. Being one less Soul Charge isn't a really solid argument, considering it's not universally going to be the case. It is true, but it's an almost niche scenario argument.

 

You say costless (i.e. LP cost doesn't matter), then you say each LP matters. Then, you say 1000 LP doesn't matter (I guess only 1001+ LP matters?). Make up your mind, dude.

 

Listen, I already said it isn't much, just that it CAN matter because it CAN hurt you in the long run.

 

 Your entire argument you've supplied, bar the ED mention, boils down to "it's bad when you're cornered".

 

Bar the whole thing about "reasonable targets" and "only one deck can use it" thing too, right?

 

Time seems like a really niche and bad argument. Yeah, it's there, but it doesn't speak to design in general, nor balance if we were arguing that.

 

You know, saying something is a "bad argument" doesn't really add to your arguments? Just makes you seem a little self-entitled and arrogant.

 

Most decks don't NEED all 15 ED slots anyways, so not really.

 

Lol, IDK what you've been playing, but I sure as hell have a hard time deciding what to put in the extra deck (also WTF? Extra dwellers? Its hard enough playing 1!). Especially in a format like this where Synchros/Fusions are starting to make a comeback while XYZs are always an option.

 

They just fill them with extra copies of answers, and the only real thing that this will overshadow more often than not is extra copies of Dweller.

 

Believe it or not, that's what the extra deck is most of the time; answers. It's rarely just boss monsters.

 

I don't even know why I'm replying. This entire conversation is derailing the thread and is completely pointless.

[Blake]

 

So instead of supplying an argument, you put words in my mouth? I just gave examples of how the only good uses for it are unhealthy uses, and you offered no counterargument. You also used the word "broken", which shows you're thinking in incredibly broad black and white terms that devalue the nature and depth of your argument. A card does not have to be broken to be bad or unhealthy design.

 

 You clearly were arguing how abusable and broken the card was (it doesn't even make sense in another context). If you're not arguing that, why the f*** are we arguing?

 

I think the whole "unhealthy decks" thing is very subjective. What you don't want to see being played doesn't mean the deck doesn't deserve to be played. Plus, infernities is one of the few decks left that require a huge amount of skill. I really don't see how its unhealthy.

 

I do think it matters. Because it does, which is why I believe that Threatening Roar is only getting better, because each LP counts. This is especially true post-NECH. But that doesn't make it a hefty cost, either. 1000 LP doesn't mean s*** in the grand scheme, and it's only going to dead draw late, and only then if you blew your LP/were topdecking anyways. Being one less Soul Charge isn't a really solid argument, considering it's not universally going to be the case. It is true, but it's an almost niche scenario argument.

 

You say costless (i.e. LP cost doesn't matter), then you say each LP matters. Then, you say 1000 LP doesn't matter (I guess only 1001+ LP matters?). Make up your mind, dude.

 

Listen, I already said it isn't much, just that it CAN matter because it CAN hurt you in the long run.

 

 Your entire argument you've supplied, bar the ED mention, boils down to "it's bad when you're cornered".

 

Bar the whole thing about "reasonable targets" and "only one deck can use it" thing too, right?

 

Time seems like a really niche and bad argument. Yeah, it's there, but it doesn't speak to design in general, nor balance if we were arguing that.

 

You know, saying something is a "bad argument" doesn't really add to your arguments? Just makes you seem a little self-entitled and arrogant.

 

Most decks don't NEED all 15 ED slots anyways, so not really.

 

Lol, IDK what you've been playing, but I sure as hell have a hard time deciding what to put in the extra deck (also WTF? Extra dwellers? Its hard enough playing 1!). Especially in a format like this where Synchros/Fusions are starting to make a comeback while XYZs are always an option.

 

They just fill them with extra copies of answers, and the only real thing that this will overshadow more often than not is extra copies of Dweller.

 

Believe it or not, that's what the extra deck is most of the time; answers. It's rarely just boss monsters.

 

I don't even know why I'm replying. This entire conversation is derailing the thread and is completely pointless.

 

No, I wasn't, you just decided to put words in my mouth.

 

Unhealthy isn't subjective, just as card design is not. Instant Fusion is undeniably bad design, and it adds nothing healthy to the game. Will it necessarily damage it at any given moment? No, but it has the potential to be unhealthy because of its haphazard design, and the only *times it sees use are unhealthy decks like Infernity and Madolche. 

 

Also, your skill point is wrong on two levels.

 

Firstly, skill is NOT a defending point for unhealthy and degenerate design. Ever. Infernities are some of the worst examples of design in the game left untouched, and being skillful is not a redeeming factor in what they do to the game.

 

Then there's the fact that they are in no way one of the "few skillful decks". Did you see Dragon Rulers, especially in their hay day? Shaddolls are skillful, too, as many decks have been. People just tend to let power creep blind them instead of thinking out the actual playing process.

 

It's called context. It matters in the sense that LP are real, but at the same time you can't act like 1000 LP alone, one time so to speak, is going to end the game for sure. It's not.

 

And that's all your argument boiled down to. That and putting words in my mouth.

 

No, not bar those. Those added nothing to your point and were nothing but empty. Current usability is NOT an argument in regards to the health or design of a card, and "Reasonable targets" is bullshit that tries to defend the fact that it's just a generic monster on the board.

 

Not really. Using empty arguments that hold no merit does nothing but take away from yours. You are correct that it doesn't add to mine, in that sense.

 

I don't know what game you're playing, but the decks that use Instant Fusion are predominately xyz-centric or are Shaddoll Variants. The latter's got a tight extra due to the fusions, but the former... Not usually? R3's only tight when it uses Astral Force/Other Ranks, R4's only tight when you run multiples (thus not tight)/have themed bosses (gears are an example)/run another cardtype, and R5... isn't really tight because R5 is a support for other ranks usually?

 

Giving up 1-2 slots in most of those won't kill you, especially R4.dek (the most likely place to be used after Infernity and Madolche) because you don't need doubles of most options.

 

Even some decks with non-generic options still don't have an overly tight ED.

 

And if you think the most important generic Rank 4's not worth double space over other doubles, you really need to think about card interactions more.

 

Not really? Very rarely is an ED extra copies of answers unless it's being built by someone who's not prioritizing toolboxing, and thus using their spaces suboptimally. 101 was a fine double in its day, and Castel and Dweller are decent now.. but that's it. You never really need doubles or triples, outside of themed bosses and Ghostrick Alucard.

 

And still you've offered no counter argument of merit.

[Spenсe]

And still you've offered no counter argument of merit.

Well, that'll teach me to mess with you. Can't handle debates with this kind of strong logic. Can't really beat the great "everything you say is false because it contradicts my opinion" argument. Good job, sir. I bet you'll reply saying "NOPE! This kid can't argue because I'm right and he's wrong." Ya, that'll teach me.

 

Quit derailing the topic, bud.