RC Improvement Discussion Thread

[Nathanael D. Striker]

Saber:

The Hall of Fame has been attempted recently with little success. The problem was people trying to nominate their own cards and an abundance of cards not worthy of the HoF being nominated. Yes, it can work though that's where the incentives come in.

People in general don't do things without getting something in return. Not saying that points/reps are the answer, but something that'll make the the person receiving said incentive feel that their efforts are meaningful is ideal.

Since you mentioned it, AoC shouldn't be treated like a trash can. It should be s place for innovation. A section for innovations that don't call into RC shouldn't be mixed with joke cards and the rest of RC's trash.

[Excalibur the Divine]

Anyone other than Sakura (when did he become a mod) read my idea?

[Nathanael D. Striker]

I did read the part about the award logo. Works perfectly.

[宇佐見 蓮子@C94]

I'm not sure how many of you remember this, but we've actually done at least 2 Hall of Fames in recent history. There's the one where people nominate their own other's cards and have it judged by a panel of judges to decide whether it should go in or not. What you may not know is that there was another, shorter lived RC hall of fame. This one is kinda similar to rtyui's in terms of theory, in that people go and rep cards they think are good and at the end of the week the one with the most votes win. The issue with this is that you would get cards that aren't Hall of Fame-worthy but got nominated because people are morons.

 

Make of that what you will. The problem with making hall of fame-esque projects that rely on the masses is that it will devolve to a popularity contest after some time. 

[Nathanael D. Striker]

Hence why if anything of that sort should be done, a decent amount of time between nomination periods is ideal. Not too short to constantly have a pile of cards and not too long where interest is lost.

[Zauls]

Honestly, I've not actually been a CC poster for all that long. I mainly stuck to TCG, so I didn't know about these other Hall of Fame attempts. I was probably looking at it through rose-tinted spectacles and I haven't really thought about the details yet, but I am up for trying it to see how it works this time round, as long as we think it out carefully and try to address the issues that we had before.

 

I'm perfectly aware that most people won't create/review cards for the sake of it. Some people create cards for fun (which is basically for the sake of it) but to get people to create cards of the standard we want will need some sort of incentive. The reason I review cards is to help people get better at card making, and that's really the kind of mentality that would exist with all reviewers in an ideal world. Unfortunately that's not really the case, so some kind of incentive is probably needed. I'm convinced points/reps aren't the answer, but I will have to ponder over that one.

 

AOC is a weird one. It specifically states that joke cards go there, but then we want innovative new ideas to be there as well? It doesn't seem to make sense now I think about it. Honestly, is there even any point in people posting joke cards? It doesn't add anything to the section as far as I can tell and really none of them are that funny. AOC could become a place of really interesting new concepts and toying with mechanics, which would be productive and much more useful than joke cards and whatever else people post in AOC. There is some interesting stuff in there, but I tended to avoid it because it was mixed in with a load of crap. 

[Blake]

Review of the week is a terrible idea because it's based on a section that's already unsatisfactory. You can't celebrate that which is subpar. It was attempted, it failed miserably.

 

Same for Hall of Fame. The only card that made it in was a card I specifically designed to give people an idea. Again, quality is too low to start at a hall of fame.

 

A separation of RC doesn't make sense. RC isn't even meant for "competitive" cards, it's meant for well designed cards. Casual and Competitive doesn't even mean anything because you can design support for a casual deck that's well designed and in no way intended to push them to tier, just make them a bit better. Like, Gladiator Beast Augustus is a cool design that doesn't do too much, but Diamond Core of Koa'Ki Meiru is a degenerate design. Neither of these decks are tier.

 

We've also had THIS thread time and again but nothing happened.

 

The leaders of the section need to take initiative to show what good design and good reviews are. This falls mainly on the moderators, but also members that actively post here. I could afford to do more, but I'm not incredibly invested here, compared to before.

[Zauls]

Review of the week is a terrible idea because it's based on a section that's already unsatisfactory. You can't celebrate that which is subpar. It was attempted, it failed miserably.

 

Same for Hall of Fame. The only card that made it in was a card I specifically designed to give people an idea. Again, quality is too low to start at a hall of fame.

 

A separation of RC doesn't make sense. RC isn't even meant for "competitive" cards, it's meant for well designed cards. Casual and Competitive doesn't even mean anything because you can design support for a casual deck that's well designed and in no way intended to push them to tier, just make them a bit better. Like, Gladiator Beast Augustus is a cool design that doesn't do too much, but Diamond Core of Koa'Ki Meiru is a degenerate design. Neither of these decks are tier.

 

I must say I have to agree with this. I never used to come to CC that often, but I have probably seen like one card and hardly any reviews that would be worthy of being kept forever and displayed as a good example. It is always the same people giving good reviews as well, so there is little competition and most members won't be interested. 

Another issue is that cards seem to have to be badly designed to be competitive in the TCG these days, given the extent to which power creep has happened. There are obvious exceptions like 101, but then you look at Hands, Geargiagear, Exciton and such... Most well-designed cards in the meta support degenerate strategies, too.

 

That kind of leaves us in a tight spot though. We can't give incentives like Hall of Fame/Review of the Week because the standards aren't high enough, but then we can't improve standards because we can't put these incentives in place.

I think that we are forgetting the very basics of improving standards, which is just trying to get members to read the rules/guides and understand and follow them. That would be a good start, at least.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

Is there any way to "force" new members to read the guides and rules currently in place?

[Blake]

We've also had THIS thread time and again but nothing happened.

 

The leaders of the section need to take initiative to show what good design and good reviews are. This falls mainly on the moderators, but also members that actively post here. I could afford to do more, but I'm not incredibly invested here, compared to before.

I must say I have to agree with this. I never used to come to CC that often, but I have probably seen like one card and hardly any reviews that would be worthy of being kept forever and displayed as a good example. It is always the same people giving good reviews as well, so there is little competition and most members won't be interested. 

Another issue is that cards seem to have to be badly designed to be competitive in the TCG these days, given the extent to which power creep has happened. There are obvious exceptions like 101, but then you look at Hands, Geargiagear, Exciton and such... Most well-designed cards in the meta support degenerate strategies, too.

 

That kind of leaves us in a tight spot though. We can't give incentives like Hall of Fame/Review of the Week because the standards aren't high enough, but then we can't improve standards because we can't put these incentives in place.

I think that we are forgetting the very basics of improving standards, which is just trying to get members to read the rules/guides and understand and follow them. That would be a good start, at least.

I did add a suggestion as quoted above, just not before you quoted me earlier. That's all you can really do.

 

Also on Exciton, that's a very interesting card that's something you guys could make an example of. It's good for the current gamestate to a degree, but it's terrible design. Meanwhile 101 is less than perfect design, but it's not an unfair card by any means.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

I did add a suggestion as quoted above, just not before you quoted me earlier. That's all you can really do.

 

Also on Exciton, that's a very interesting card that's something you guys could make an example of. It's good for the current gamestate to a degree, but it's terrible design. Meanwhile 101 is less than perfect design, but it's not an unfair card by any means.

Just adding on to this that, well, it might also be a good idea to consider posting an example of a card that isn't necessarily relevant, but is really well designed. As well as irrelevant cards that aren't well designed. Oh, and explanations. I'm kinda going back to my other post here when I'm suggesting that the cards are thoroughly reviewed, along with mentioning small variations that were possible and how they would fare design-wise on the card (like a bunch of different things Shark Knight could have done to the monster that it sucks up). It might even be cool to have some person create one of the examples, and then go through the whole thought process. Like, why does it fill the role it does, instead of something else, why is its ATK what it is, and so forth. I imagine that creating support for an existing archetype/group of cards would allow for a lot more discussion the little details of the card in question.

 

So yeah, totally not saying the same thing over again.

[Excalibur the Divine]

Is there any way to "force" new members to read the guides and rules currently in place?

Just pm them, it should be fine

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Honestly, I've not actually been a CC poster for all that long. I mainly stuck to TCG, so I didn't know about these other Hall of Fame attempts. I was probably looking at it through rose-tinted spectacles and I haven't really thought about the details yet, but I am up for trying it to see how it works this time round, as long as we think it out carefully and try to address the issues that we had before.

 

I'm perfectly aware that most people won't create/review cards for the sake of it. Some people create cards for fun (which is basically for the sake of it) but to get people to create cards of the standard we want will need some sort of incentive. The reason I review cards is to help people get better at card making, and that's really the kind of mentality that would exist with all reviewers in an ideal world. Unfortunately that's not really the case, so some kind of incentive is probably needed. I'm convinced points/reps aren't the answer, but I will have to ponder over that one.

 

AOC is a weird one. It specifically states that joke cards go there, but then we want innovative new ideas to be there as well? It doesn't seem to make sense now I think about it. Honestly, is there even any point in people posting joke cards? It doesn't add anything to the section as far as I can tell and really none of them are that funny. AOC could become a place of really interesting new concepts and toying with mechanics, which would be productive and much more useful than joke cards and whatever else people post in AOC. There is some interesting stuff in there, but I tended to avoid it because it was mixed in with a load of crap. 

 

Back in the older days, AoC was for other cards that didn't quite cut it as RC/competitive material or for members that made good cards, but weren't prepared for RC-level CnC. Granted though, we had a Joke Card thread inside the Games section; and frankly I think they belong there (since they really do nothing useful outside of comic relief). Sometimes I read stuff in there, but other times I rather not read them because a lot of stuff in there really makes no sense (there were a couple cards that were of extremely bad taste).

 

One idea could be to apply the RC split idea for AoC; one for the serious stuff that's meant to actually do something useful and the joke cards that pop up around there. Obviously the latter will be post count disabled, because you shouldn't be getting post/points for posting a trollface card.

 

As for trying to promote good cards/reviews (especially under AC), we need some way to encourage that. Granted, warning members for breaking AC is one of those options but should not be the dominant method of enforcing good quality. Black already mentioned that it's the responsibility of the entire community to push this section's standards up: Saber, myself and Zextra to promote/enforce said standards and keep stuff in order; the rest of you to do what is needed.

 

Is there any way to "force" new members to read the guides and rules currently in place?

Unless we make the rules/guidelines very obvious to read [Toyo's guide is pretty obvious], newbies will just avoid it. There is a note about reading them at the top of the forum, but some newbies just skip on to making their cards and not bother to read them; and then the drama starts to unfold. Outside of the Introduction sections, since I'm usually telling him to read the guides and stuff, so we avoid all the unnecessary drama about "oh this card is bad and some other stuff"; nothing much that can be done to FORCE them to give them a read first.

 

As for ABC's idea, I'm in favor of it.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

Not sure if this can be done with iPB, but preventing people from posting in RC until they read the rules/guides. Extremely drastic, I know. Probably a last resort if it's ever considered, but it could work. Though getting to those members early like you do Sakura can help if enough people do it.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Assuming that the RC Tutoring thing is still active (which I think has died down as of late because of its success rate so far), we can have them alert new members that they need to read the rules/guidelines before throwing themselves into the section. That being said, they need to show interest in RC before coming (but that's usually the case for most newbies).

 

I was considering that option of locking posting until they read the rules, but don't think it's possible to implement it on this forum. I think there was a plugin for it on MyBB (but we've obviously been away from it since summer 2010). Even then, they'll probably skim them just to gain their access rights. As extreme as it sounds, we need to get new members to read the rules and understand what is it that RC expects out of them, should they be brave enough to come here.

 

Another thing would be to up the quality in Pop Culture Cards as well. Yes, that section is about other series' characters but proper card balance must still be observed. We don't need cards about Falcon Punching with "lol I win" effects or a bunch of other things. I remember having to CnC a user's card for inflicting 1800 damage for simply negating a card/detaching Xyz Material. In essence, enforce the Advanced Clause over there to an extent; but don't make it as strict as over here. Though no one really goes in there so our main priority is to get RC up to snuff (rules, card quality, reviews and so forth) before taking on the lower forums.

[Dracoswag]

So in a way, should the "force" to read rules thing ever applied, it would be like how before you updated a system, there is a Terms & Service clause that you have to agree to before moving on (and let's face it, NO ONE read's those so you can pretty much expect the same result here.) I think that, given the nature of Pop Cultures section, it would be hard to track those who carefully configure their cards effects instead of the typical "this character is OP thus; input OP effect" which seems to be the regular for Pop Cultures. Maybe when the majority of the community (or at the very least, when more then one group acknowledges the legitimacy of someones card(s) in the Pop Cultures section, we can highlight some of those players for that reason.) However, I am guessing even that would be stretching it a bit.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

There's no plugin that can "force" newbies to read the rules before accessing this forum on IP.Boards, so we'll just have to emphasize newbies to just read the rules and make sure they understand the contents BEFORE posting. Should make that part very obvious in this section. In essence though, it's their responsibility to make sure they understand what to do/not do here. If they don't, they had better ask either Saber or me to elaborate on them; they should be easy to understand. If they fail to read the rules and throw a fit over another user telling them their card is bad; we gave them fair warning to read the said rules/guides so this wouldn't happen. (It sounds harsh, I know, but we need to make sure they understand what they are expected to live up to in here).

 

As Toyo mentioned in their guide, RC (and by extension, CC) is a place to create cards that might be considered by Konami (should they ever come here and use your design). While we try to be open to designs from members (as they keep this place live), you need to remember that we hold cards posted here to a higher standard than what is expected of AoC and Pop Culture at the moment. You need to be able to take CnC like a mature member and not throw a fit if someone else says that your card is bad quality OR if you disagree with how other members are grading a card. It may be harsh and on a competitive scale, yes, but most of the time, they know what the heck they're talking about. If you can't handle taking CnC (whether it's directed towards you or not); this is not the section for you to be in, and I'm sorry if it's harsh on newer members.

 

Pop Culture-wise, it's true that not many users go in their nowadays; the exceptions being that ems97 member and a few others to an extent (so highlighting particular users there is out of the question). I usually check there once a day or so and look at the quality of cards in there; there are a few members who create Pop Culture cards at the RC level; rest of them, not so much. Granted, most of the stuff I made in there lately was designed with RC principles in mind. We just can't throw the RC Book at them, and expect newbies to follow it. We don't expect you to make RC style cards out of your favorite characters, but just make sure you follow proper card design. It is hard trying to correlate a character's abilities into Yugioh form and then balance them out if broken; but just don't make a carbon copy of something currently sitting on the ban list (especially ones that have been here since the beginning).

 

In a nutshell though, we need to fix RC as this is the section that needs the most improvement right now (considering this is one of the reasons we had all of these reforms in RC; the Welcoming Committee, Card Judging Test, Saber/I getting promoted to keep CC in line in the absence of Zextra, this thread and so on)

 

For those of you asking when Saber and I became mods, we both got promoted this past Saturday (so not that long ago).

[Dracoswag]

Is it possible to use my Final Fantasy X set as an example of what to do; what not to do or is that entirely out of he question (I assure you, I am keeping track of that set and making sure I do appropiate edits and fixes too see what works and how the OCG looks. To this day, I still this site as well as a seperate template for their effects and constantly edit them on my separate template)

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Looking at it, should be fine as an example of what to make in Pop Culture.

As for the bad examples, I have some old ones from 2009-2010ish [or dig up some random card from the back pages].

 

In a way, it'll be the PC equivalent of Toyo's guide for this section.

 

Just as a reminder to you guys (Aix mentioned this earlier); please use the Report Button if you see anything that shouldn't be there [such as AC violations, posting DIVINE/Divine-Beast cards in this section or anything else that warrants our attention]. We don't always look through every thread to find rule breaks, so your cooperation in helping keep RC (or the Custom Cards section for that matter) in order is greatly appreciated.

 

EDIT: Saber, Striker and myself are currently cleaning up the Custom Cards sections at the moment. Because Joke Cards don't offer any use whatsoever, we've decided to relegate them to a separate thread in Games; much like the older days. AoC will be reserved solely for new and anime/manga only concepts. 

[Aix]

What is currently being given done to help newbies improve atm?

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I wish I could give some insightful thoughts and ideas. But I can't, what I can do is explain some of my experience, as one of the newbies who posted a few cards. Maybe that can help give some idea of the situation, maybe not. But I figured I'd say something.

My first card (recently). The first review was very negative and tore it to pieces. I will not whine about it, because I was able to take the criticism and attempt to make the card better. In fact I am thankful for it.

However, not everyone shares my attitude, and ultra critical reviews can harm as much as help. But that's not the main problem I experienced.
I am grateful to the replies I got, but the issue I found was this.

Once I got to a certain point, comments simply stopped. I listened to the reviews, and made fixes and changes as I went. However whenever I felt I was finally getting something better, I couldn't tell, because people just stopped. I don't expect everyone to constantly reply every time. But it was a bit discouraging not knowing if I was doing better.

Basically, we tell people to listen to criticism and improve, but we need to follow up on that. I don't just want to know what's good and bad about the initial card, I want to know how well I'm doing at implementing the fixes that people suggest. Coming to a card and saying "This is bad this is bad, and also this" and then leaving is not the best way to go about it.

It's disheartening when I listen to what people say and take the time to make fixes and then not having any feedback on the work I put into trying to improve.

Not to mention it seems the terrible cards and the creators with bad attitudes get more attention than those with good attitudes.

[J-Max]

Because people like to feed on Negativity. If the card is bad, it will give them more of an excuse to bitch and moan about how bad it is. Its easier to insult someone then to swallow your pride and say "You know what? I am very impressed with this card. Thank you for taking mine and the other people in this thread's advice. I look forward to seeing more from you. Nice to see that AoC is being tidied up too.

[Zauls]

Basically, once a card has been fixed by a couple of people giving reviews, people won't post because there isn't anything else to say other than "the card is fine, well done", which isn't really worth saying. It is true that after you've fixed your cards and taken comments on, there isn't a stage after that other than the thread dying. I think the solution boils down to giving more incentives to create cards, so people create them for a reason and there is that extra stage after you've fixed the card and everything. We will work on that.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

@J-Max: Yeah, the three of us have decided to make AoC for new concepts and/or stuff that's anime/manga only. Joke Cards got their own subforum [technically it was meant as a holding area while stuff got moved accordingly]. As such, because AoC is now for serious cards, the post count lock has been lifted on it.

 

@Aix: Aside from stepping up the bar on AC enforcement [the exception clause for members with 100 posts or less has been dropped], nothing really major has been done yet. We're working on other ideas to improve their cardmaking/review skills at the moment. (Saber summed it in last sentence)

[Aix]

New Card Contests Judge Exam has been made with focus on design. It's pretty obvious why the cards are badly designed to those who know design, but I'm afraid newbies might struggle quite a bit.

 

EDIT: Alright, replaced them with the cards Black found. Might be a gross step in stepping up the game here.