Sunn O))) Posted June 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 A tad off topic but if time is infinite then that means anything that can happen within the laws of this universe will happen infinitely. Including this very discussion. Is an omnipotent, omniscient god possible within the laws of this universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aix Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 A tad off topic but if time is infinite then that means anything that can happen within the laws of this universe will happen infinitely. Including this very discussion.Infinite does not mean all possibilities nor reiteration. Any mathematical function is infinite, but it will not result in any x value more than once. The line y=9 is infinite, but it will never reach any other y value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A._Sakuyamon Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Is an omnipotent, omniscient god possible within the laws of this universe? I don't think it is, but in an infinite number of other universes yes. EDIT: Perhaps but time is not one of them. If time is infinite then it is impossible for events not to repeat as conditions will have an endless chance to be met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Is an omnipotent, omniscient god possible within the laws of this universe? That is a question that has no definite answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Jesus was brown. What are we talking about again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aix Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Is an omnipotent, omniscient god possible within the laws of this universe?We don't know all the laws of this universe. If we did, we could have an answer to not only this, but everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Is an omnipotent, omniscient god possible within the laws of this universe? We don't know all the laws of this universe. If we did, we could have an answer to not only this, but everything. Pretty much this. So actually yes, it is possible. This is the most civil debate I've ever had about this subject, I'm so happy right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andx Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 EDIT: But Monocle Dig, if he always existed, did he just sit there until he decided to create the Universe, or do you believe the Universe always existed as well? Yeah see that's where I'm crazy and stuff. I do believe that all matter in the universe has always existed and that God organizes it into worlds, countless worlds. I think we too often forget that the creation account in the bible doesn't state God created the universe all at once there. It details the creation of our planet. So the creation is ongoing in that regard as we observe the far off galaxies and nebulas wherein countless new stars and planets die and countless more are made. But to assume that the earth came into existence at the same time as the universe is silly and obviously false. Especially since the universe has to have always existed and the earth has not according to, again, both science and religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Warden Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 I feel the reason that God doesn't interfere with our world is because He knows He shouldn't. He's interfered and made little suggestions to humanity before and they turned out pretty poorly in the long run. To be honest I think at this point He understands we should be making our own way in the world, and that if He were to influence us, they would ultimately be His choices and not ours. A god can create a race, but they shouldn't interfere with them any more than that. And in answer to the suffering thing: Do you have ANY idea how f**king boring the planet would be if everyone was content. It'd be just like Pleasantville, where everything is nice and happy and safe. Without suffering people cannot build the character needed to become their own individual. Sure some people's suffering is taken up to 11, but that's all part of the cruel nature of duality, where all is in equal balance. For every happy person, there is a sad one. For every child snug and safe in their bed, there's one starving and cold. God could have very well made us, but by giving us free will, He has shown that He considers us worthy of making our own decisions in life. A god should not interfere in the affairs of mortals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aix Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Anyway, to summarize what I believe. I believe an omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent God to be logically impossible. On the matter of whether or not there is an entity who created the universe, there is no definitive proof either way so I don't believe it right to draw a conclusion, however, I tilt towards the side of such an entity being not there because there as far as I see, there is nothing remotely similar to God and thus God seems like an inconsistency in the system of the universe. I feel the reason that God doesn't interfere with our world is because He knows He shouldn't. He's interfered and made little suggestions to humanity before and they turned out pretty poorly in the long run. So he is not omniscient and nor can he simply will things to be a certain way. And in answer to the suffering thing: Do you have ANY idea how f**king boring the planet would be if everyone was content. It'd be just like Pleasantville, where everything is nice and happy and safe. I can almost agree with this. However, there are other things than suffering that makes things interesting. For example: learning new things, experiencing new things, personal challenges, sports, games, etc. There is such an infinite number of things. I do agree that struggle makes life worthwhile, and a certain degree of struggle is nice, but not to an extreme extent as some people. A perfect world is a flawed and impossible concept. Sure some people's suffering is taken up to 11, but that's all part of the cruel nature of duality, where all is in equal balance. For every happy person, there is a sad one. For every child snug and safe in their bed, there's one starving and cold. Why is there this kind of duality? Why can't things be done about it? There is the possibility that eventually, there'll be less suffering in this world as things improve (admittedly, this is an optimistic viewpoint), thus there is, as far as I can tell, no law of the universe saying there needs to be a starving child to make up for every happy child. I say a perfect world is impossible, but a near perfect world is. At the very least, there can be a world where everyone has their basic human rights and free Wi-Fi! God could have very well made us, but by giving us free will, He has shown that He considers us worthy of making our own decisions in life. A god should not interfere in the affairs of mortals. I have said before that not everyone really has that much free will. For example, a child that dies of starvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunn O))) Posted June 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Aix. you're okay in my book. I don't think me and you have anything else to gain by discussing this particular topic with each other further however. We explained our beliefs and reasoning and the old saying "agree to disagree" comes to mind. However we share the belief that it's okay to think differently it seems so that's good at least. I think the one thing that, religious or not, people should agree on is that we don't know anything for sure. I can't tell if the Wizard is just trying to be inflammatory or if they're trying to discuss so I'll avoid responding for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Warden Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 One can be omniscient, but what does that prove? If you KNOW something is going to happen, then how does one change it? You can't change what is GOING to happen. Trying to do so just results in time getting messed up. God might be omnipotent, but even He is a slave to the concept of Time because it is as absolute as He is. I understand that good personal comforts help improve people, but people choose to do them by stepping out of their comfort zone, which might be a meagre form of suffering, but IS suffering nonetheless. The will and curiosity to expand your horizons is birthed from the suffering of boredom. Duality exists because the world is always in balance. Without balance there is chaos, and with chaos comes nothingness. True peace is impossible, because we humans cannot submit to such an ideal. To have true peace is to be of one mind, one soul and one body. Because no matter what, humans can and will always disagree on things. And I personally hate the rule, since for my misery and pain, I give someone else happiness and safety. Is it fair? No, it's not. But that's Life; because it ain't fair, not now, not ever. Free will is the concept of being able to decide for yourself every action. Though one's actions can be limited, they are free to make each and every single one of them. It is humanity that tries to suppress this free will, not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren✧ Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Religion in no way implies a supernatural entity by default and you should learn what you're talking about before speaking so assertively. I clearly stated that my definition of a religion was based on the finding of an internet definition. Which as anyone, that is at least somewhat competent, is bound to make generalizations and have flaws. However, no definition of religion had yet to be given. So I provided one, feel free to argue your personal definition of religion. But please don't find fault with being assertive when I am merely providing a foundation in which to base a new argument. Religion in no way implies a supernatural entity by default and you should learn what you're talking about before speaking so assertively. A religion is more a set of beliefs, ideas and world views. But where is the defined set of beliefs, ideas, and world views for atheists? I do not claim, or have ever claimed, that I have personal insight on atheism. This is just what I have gleaned from those that I know who call themselves atheists. It is solely centered towards the individual. According to atheism, it is all about making your life count because it is all you have and you are the only person, and only thing, that can dictate your life. So the fact that atheism does not have a set of commandments, or a text, or a leader, or even really a meeting congregation I would have to say that it isn't what I define as a religion. Now, that isn't saying that it is inherently good or bad because of this. There have been many wrong-doings done in the name of religion and many admirable things as well. I am merely saying that atheism does not fall into that category. I'm curious as to why people are so bothered about what other people believe in? Why are Atheists persistent on goading religious believers, and vice versa? If it doesn't hurt anybody, and it wouldn't affect them in any way, shape or form, why bother even caring? Live and let live, honestly. I think it is because of the personal attacks and shaming done to one another. That, and humans have an inherent need to understand and be correct in their understanding. Slightly off topic, but something interesting that I thought up in a conversation with a friend of mine: What really defines God? Is it solely his ability to create, shape, and rule? If that is the case, and we subscribe to the infinite universe theory, shouldn't there be a universe where someone has been given the power to do as above? Does that make them God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A._Sakuyamon Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 I clearly stated that my definition of a religion was based on the finding of an internet definition. Which as anyone, that is at least somewhat competent, is bound to make generalizations and have flaws. However, no definition of religion had yet to be given. So I provided one, feel free to argue your personal definition of religion. But please don't find fault with being assertive when I am merely providing a foundation in which to base a new argument. But where is the defined set of beliefs, ideas, and world views for atheists? I do not claim, or have ever claimed, that I have personal insight on atheism. This is just what I have gleaned from those that I know who call themselves atheists. It is solely centered towards the individual. According to atheism, it is all about making your life count because it is all you have and you are the only person, and only thing, that can dictate your life. So the fact that atheism does not have a set of commandments, or a text, or a leader, or even really a meeting congregation I would have to say that it isn't what I define as a religion. Now, that isn't saying that it is inherently good or bad because of this. There have been many wrong-doings done in the name of religion and many admirable things as well. I am merely saying that atheism does not fall into that category. I think it is because of the personal attacks and shaming done to one another. That, and humans have an inherent need to understand and be correct in their understanding. Slightly off topic, but something interesting that I thought up in a conversation with a friend of mine: What really defines God? Is it solely his ability to create, shape, and rule? If that is the case, and we subscribe to the infinite universe theory, shouldn't there be a universe where someone has been given the power to do as above? Does that make them God? For the last one. Yes & No & everywhere in between and beyond to every conceivable & inconceivable definition of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Is an omnipotent, omniscient god possible within the laws of this universe? He [i]is[/i] the laws of this universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren✧ Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 For the last one. Yes & No & everywhere in between and beyond to every conceivable & inconceivable definition of God. Your belief in the extreme infinite makes things impossible to define, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A._Sakuyamon Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Your belief in the extreme infinite makes things impossible to define, doesn't it? All are valid, it's just not possible to conceive them all. So I suppose technically yes your correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren✧ Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 All are valid, it's just not possible to conceive them all. So I suppose technically yes your correct. AAAHHHH! There it is again! Too much for me man, too much for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A._Sakuyamon Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 AAAHHHH! There it is again! Too much for me man, too much for me. This is a perfectly acceptable reaction. It's cool. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPTinYugi Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 One can be omniscient, but what does that prove? If you KNOW something is going to happen, then how does one change it? You can't change what is GOING to happen. Trying to do so just results in time getting messed up. God might be omnipotent, but even He is a slave to the concept of Time because it is as absolute as He is. I understand that good personal comforts help improve people, but people choose to do them by stepping out of their comfort zone, which might be a meagre form of suffering, but IS suffering nonetheless. The will and curiosity to expand your horizons is birthed from the suffering of boredom. Duality exists because the world is always in balance. Without balance there is chaos, and with chaos comes nothingness. True peace is impossible, because we humans cannot submit to such an ideal. To have true peace is to be of one mind, one soul and one body. Because no matter what, humans can and will always disagree on things. And I personally hate the rule, since for my misery and pain, I give someone else happiness and safety. Is it fair? No, it's not. But that's Life; because it ain't fair, not now, not ever. Free will is the concept of being able to decide for yourself every action. Though one's actions can be limited, they are free to make each and every single one of them. It is humanity that tries to suppress this free will, not God. I didn't want to be in this debate but I find free will so flawed so I'll just use what I have seen from others that I agree with to answer: This is something that has been bothering me for a while now. If someone believes in the judeo christian God, it means they accept him being omniscient and omnipotent. This means that when he created every person on the planet, he knew EXACTLY how every single one of them would turn out to be. So how can anyone have free will? every action ever taken was already decided the moment god set the universe into motion. How can anyone make sense of this? Take Jesus for example, he KNEW judas would betray, and forgave him because of it. How can anyone be responsible for their actions under these circumstances? If I let go of this rock I'm holding it will go down. I won't force it down, but I know it will go down. If the rock had any will in the matter (i.e., it could choose to do other than go down), I could not know that it would fall down. The only way anyone/anything can "know" future outcomes is if none of the actors in that future outcome have no will. If god knows what I will do tomorrow, I have no will in the matter even if said god doesn't make me do anything. Good luck getting that across, though. Ex-Christian here. One of the things I liked most about Christianity is the concept of free will, but recently I've gained a different perception of what Christianity considers free will. Basically, every human being born is destined for hell without Christ's gift, which you have to choose to accept. But if you don't make that choice, you're doomed to be tortured eternally. How is this different than extortion? If I walked up to you and threatened to shoot you in the face unless you performed sexual favors for me, that's extortion. Even for the willing, it isn't actually free will, as you have only one viable option. P1: If he exists, God knows everything, including his future thoughts and actions. P2: If he exists, God has free will. P3: If one knows their future thoughts and actions they do not have the power to change them, as the actions and thoughts have been pre-determined. George Carlin: The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and f*** up Your Plan? With an all powerful, all knowing God, couldn't have been not that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thar Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 He is the laws of this universe. If you wanna get technical... the laws of the universe were discovered and made real by man. This of course happened during the Antiquity era, where the Greeks worshiped their OWN set of deities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted June 15, 2014 Report Share Posted June 15, 2014 I don't "wanna get technical". What's more, I won't "get technical", pedant. You'd have to kill me first. So either kill me or transcend literalism. Those are your options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I was born into a Christian household. Naturally I am such, and I doubt I will ever change my beliefs in my life time. That being said, there's quite a few posts here I want to respond to, but find myself unable to. Not un-wanting, but unable. As you proclaim, there is no proof my God exists. There is no factual evidence He created our world. But I choose to believe. Not because I'm afraid to accept evolution or scientific fact--I already have--but because I take a different look at what God has done for me and for the world. But before I go any further, let me reiterate: there is no hard evidence that God exists. Now to my actual point. For some of us, We don't need hard evidence. Why is faith necessary? It isn't. But it gives me something to hold on to. It makes me smile. It brings joy into my life. I know that there's a LOT going on in the world, and not everyone has a satisfactory or even manageable way of living, but I thank God anyway. Because I know someone like myself, be they Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or just plain confused, is going to find it in their hearts to give and help. Why do I hold onto my faith, despite lack of evidence? Despite scientific findings? Despite any tangible source? I don't know. I don't have a definite reason or a sound logic behind it. But I will instead use a quote from a relatively good movie: "I... had an experience... I can't prove it, I can't even explain it, but everything that I know as a human being, everything that I am tells me that it was real! I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever... A vision... of the universe, that tells us, undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are *not*, that none of us are alone! I wish... I... could share that... I wish, that everyone, if only for one... moment, could feel... that awe, and humility, and hope. But... That continues to be my wish." Oh, and anyone who doubts Jodie Foster can act, is out of their fucking minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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