CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 I've only dueled Monarch decks a total of 3 times. And I beast 2 of them because they were crappy versions :/ So then you're just theorymon about a situational lock that can easily be broken, and spotted from a mile away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force.Much easier to disable a Jackal than a Raiza. As I said in my last post, it's not just the lockdown why I believe what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force.Much easier to disable a Jackal than a Raiza. As I said in my last post, it's not just the lockdown why I believe what I believe. Your last post merely says that you've only dueled 3 monarch decks, 2 of which were bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force.Much easier to disable a Jackal than a Raiza. As I said in my last post, it's not just the lockdown why I believe what I believe. Your last post merely says that you've only dueled 3 monarch decks, 2 of which were bad.You know which one I was talking about :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force.Much easier to disable a Jackal than a Raiza. As I said in my last post, it's not just the lockdown why I believe what I believe. Your last post merely says that you've only dueled 3 monarch decks, 2 of which were bad.You know which one I was talking about :/ The one where you thought 9-Monarch-0-Treeborn builds would become overpowered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force.Much easier to disable a Jackal than a Raiza. As I said in my last post, it's not just the lockdown why I believe what I believe. So it's not easy to disable Raiza lock? But wait you have no firsthand experience of this lock. Ever notice how your "Raiza lock" has never won an SJC? If it were that easy, don't you think last format would have had 2 turn long duels with 3 Raizas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force.Much easier to disable a Jackal than a Raiza. As I said in my last post, it's not just the lockdown why I believe what I believe. Your last post merely says that you've only dueled 3 monarch decks, 2 of which were bad.You know which one I was talking about :/ The one where you thought 9-Monarch-0-Treeborn builds would become overpowered?I never said Treeborn was banned.I never said you use 9 monarchs. I listed 3 different monarchs.You apparently don't read all the way through posts, either. @Red: You should probably start reading instead of ranting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force.Much easier to disable a Jackal than a Raiza. As I said in my last post, it's not just the lockdown why I believe what I believe. Your last post merely says that you've only dueled 3 monarch decks, 2 of which were bad.You know which one I was talking about :/ The one where you thought 9-Monarch-0-Treeborn builds would become overpowered?I never said Treeborn was banned.I never said you use 9 monarchs. I listed 3 different monarchs.You apparently don't read all the way through posts, either. @Red: You should probably start reading instead of ranting. If you're complaining that Raiza is going to be at 3, then that implies that at least 7 Monarchs will be run. And if you don't think Treeborn Frog should be banned, learn to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 +0 is not banworthy.k. You know perfectly well what I mean: that a mere +0 isn't banworthy on its own. It is made banworthy by the specific effects of certain cards' date=' but regular spin isn't that; that's why Jackal hasn't been banned.[/quote']Jackal hasn't been banned because he has to attack to use his effect, and he's a 2 tribute monster.Also, it only works on monsters. Jackal has an actual semi-lockdown. The strategy you describe for Raiza seems to be "cross your fingers and pray you have 3 Raiza in your hand and some unnamed continuous source of tributes". As for only working on monsters: So? The only spell/trap that you can't chain to Raiza is Mirror Force.Much easier to disable a Jackal than a Raiza. As I said in my last post, it's not just the lockdown why I believe what I believe. Your last post merely says that you've only dueled 3 monarch decks, 2 of which were bad.You know which one I was talking about :/ The one where you thought 9-Monarch-0-Treeborn builds would become overpowered?I never said Treeborn was banned.I never said you use 9 monarchs. I listed 3 different monarchs.You apparently don't read all the way through posts, either. @Red: You should probably start reading instead of ranting. You listed 3 different monarchs, and all were being used. That essentially means you're saying use 9 Monarchs with 0 Treeborn Frog. You apparently are bad at the game and should quit sucking. @slayer: stop sucking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 If you're complaining that Raiza is going to be at 3' date=' then that implies that at least 7 Monarchs will be run. And if you don't think Treeborn Frog should be banned, learn to play.[/quote']I never said it shouldn't be banned, either. You can't automatically assume anything from what I said, unless you don't realize what I'm really saying. Raiza at 3 is like throwing salt back into the same old wound. Decks that aren't all-for will get trampled, and the game is just going to become swarm and control. Monarchs try to control, and the other decks swarm so they don't get controlled. If they don't swarm, then they're going to be at a disadvantage on the next turn, which slowly creates more and more disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 If you're complaining that Raiza is going to be at 3' date=' then that implies that at least 7 Monarchs will be run. And if you don't think Treeborn Frog should be banned, learn to play.[/quote']I never said it shouldn't be banned, either. You can't automatically assume anything from what I said, unless you don't realize what I'm really saying. So lets say we got a perfect ban list. we got a perfect ban list. PERFECT BAN LIST. I assumed that it was understood by anyone who knew how to play that Treeborn Frog would be banned in a PERFECT BAN LIST. Raiza at 3 is like throwing salt back into the same old wound. Decks that aren't all-for will get trampled' date=' and the game is just going to become swarm and control. Monarchs try to control, and the other decks swarm so they don't get controlled. If they don't swarm, then they're going to be at a disadvantage on the next turn, which slowly creates more and more disadvantage.[/quote'] 3 Raiza + Treeborn didn't shut out all other decktypes; 3 Raiza sans Treeborn isn't going to do so either. Burn decks like CO, Chain, and Baboon were some of the best decks last format, remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 If you're complaining that Raiza is going to be at 3' date=' then that implies that at least 7 Monarchs will be run. And if you don't think Treeborn Frog should be banned, learn to play.[/quote']I never said it shouldn't be banned, either. You can't automatically assume anything from what I said, unless you don't realize what I'm really saying. Raiza at 3 is like throwing salt back into the same old wound. Decks that aren't all-for will get trampled, and the game is just going to become swarm and control. Monarchs try to control, and the other decks swarm so they don't get controlled. If they don't swarm, then they're going to be at a disadvantage on the next turn, which slowly creates more and more disadvantage. God. You act like Monarchs are the best monsters in the game. Monarchs are good, but are hardly the best. There are decks that do control better than Monarchs do such as Emperor Control in OCG. Monarchs have the fatal flaw of requiring a tribute to get of a situational effect. Without the most consistent tribute engine in the game, Monarchs loss a whole lot of speed and strength, allowing for longer dry periods. If you are good at the game, you'd notice that during the SJCs, Monarchs didn't always take top. Hell, even if Raiza was at 3 with Treeborn Frog Monarchs still wouldn't be broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Hell' date=' even if Raiza was at 3 with Treeborn Frog Monarchs still wouldn't be broken.[/quote'] This is why any argument involving D.D. Survivor is also wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonisanoob Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 actually why would you need treeborn? you just tribute your own raiza to get the efect o.O as spinning is the most powerful effect 2 words DEAD DRAW its worse then getting a mirror force mst or your malicious zaborged getting either sent back to the top of your deck is worse than it getting destroyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 actually why would you need treeborn? you just tribute your own raiza to get the efect o.O Because you can rely on your opponent to never have any form of monster removal' date=' right? And you can consistently draw all three Raiza together, especially since it's so searchable, right? as spinning is the most powerful effect Not nowadays; Deck = Hand, remember? Raigeki Break is starting to see play over PWWB. Of course, that will probably change when DAD, Explosion, Dimension Fusion, and DMoC are all banned. 2 words DEAD DRAW its worse then getting a mirror force mst or your malicious zaborged getting either sent back to the top of your deck is worse than it getting destroyed Why would you have a Malicious face-up on the field to GET Zaborged? Also, the escape from this so called "Raiza-lock" (which happens to be more situational than the Ultimate Tyranno OTK) is the same as the escape from the Jackal lock: Don't Set a card, or at least don't Set non-chainables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonisanoob Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 no you see all the way through the duel i was on top till he drew his sided dd survivor and by this time he had 3 in his hand and my malicious edge got zaborged as he activated ultimate offering and tribed his spirit reaper on my turn >.< and no ididnt have monster removal at that point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 no you see all the way through the duel i was on top till he drew his sided dd survivor and by this time he had 3 in his hand and my malicious edge got zaborged as he activated ultimate offering and tribed his spirit reaper on my turn >.< and no ididnt have monster removal at that point Oh, I thought you were referring to Destiny Hero Malicious. You know, the card that actually works in Monarch decks. Why were you running Evil Hero Malicious Edge in Macro Monarchs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonisanoob Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 i wasnt i was using it as an example lol the 3 raiza hit i was using macro monarch and a cept getting a sorl bounced so i was boned =/ but many a time i have had myself getting things such as marshmallons constantly bounced perfect ban list for me = 1 raiza 1 frog not 3 raiza 0 frog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 perfect man list for me = 1 raiza 1 frog What makes Frog bad for the game at 3 but good for the game at 1? 1 Frog is as abusable as 3, and 0 Frog is best of all. He's a free +1 every single turn for no effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonisanoob Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 yes but eventually your going to set somthing plus in my experiance hes never really been that much of a problem a good card but not ban worthy in my eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 yes but eventually your going to set somthing plus in my experiance hes never really been that much of a problem a good card but not ban worthy in my eyes State your reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 yes but eventually your going to set somthing plus in my experiance hes never really been that much of a problem a good card but not ban worthy in my eyes So wait we're going by experience now? "In my experience guys, Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End has never really been that much of a problem, a good card but not ban worthy in my eyes." I think that your experience is less than useful. You're the same guy that thinks that Snipe Hunter is just an over - rated card. Your logic is horrible. Your arguments are horrible. Your grammar and spelling is horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonisanoob Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 yes my grammar and spelling is horrible but my logic isnt anyway most of the decks i have faced have run treeborn and its never really been much of a problem to me yes its a good card but we cant go banning all good cards as its not overpowered chaos emperor dragon is and yes snipe hunter is over rated and back to the point if raiza wasnt a problem to everyone why did it get limited in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Your "logic" seems to consist of...your personal belief. Yeah. That's your entire "logic". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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