Smogon Discussion

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

Smogon is a tier system as well as a rule system. They do their best to ensure every Pokemon can see play as well as create a more balanced competitive gameplay. If you have any further questions, simply check here.

 

http://www.smogon.com

Gen 6 current ban list
Arceus

Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-A
Dialga
Genesect
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Kyurem-W
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Shaymin-S
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom

Abilities

Moody

Items

Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite

Moves

Swagger

 

What are your thoughts on Smogon in general? Thoughts on their bans? Ideas on future bans? Please try and keep this civilized guys xD

If it helps the mods deal with arguments any better. Damage calculators are always fun.
 

http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

[Maeriberii Haan]

BP ban please, or something to nerf BP teams. Also Deoxys D/S due to obvious reasons.

 

Also, HO is fun.

[ihop]

I'm a smogonite and I agree with everything smogon has done this gen (with the exception of failing to ban deo-s). I know a lot of the guys on smogon well and I myself am a bit of a presence there (as well as staff on the sim). I was hoping this thread would be made at some point.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Ah, apparently they're actually suspect testing Full Chain Pass teams, which is damn nice. And yeah, I agree that most of their decisions this gen are on-the-spot, compared to last gen especially (Rain should've really bit the dust in B/W gdi).

[ihop]

Rain wasn't strictly an issue, but Keldeo was.

 

I'm laddering for suspect reqs atm, with a bith of luck should have them in a few days.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Good luck with that! Do you plan on using the standard Denis Chain pass team?

[ihop]

Good luck with that! Do you plan on using the standard Denis Chain pass team?

 

Nah, I'm just bringing a regular team which matches up well against baton pass, but anyway anyone halfway intelligent wouldn't bring baton pass because everyone's going to be running a check.

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

They won't ban Deoxys-S or Deoxys-D. Forretress is one of OU's worst offensive Pokemon and Deoxys-D gets the tar knocked out of it. 

0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Deoxys-S has a few problems. It's squishy first off. Its main usage aside from the obvious Nasty Plot set is laying entry hazards. Majority of the leads nowadays won't have a problem with an entry hazards set. As for Nasty Plot. The ability to safely switch in and setup successfully is a huge issue due to the squishiness. Sure you could use it in a Check scenario but that's a bit iffy. As for Deoxys-D. It's setup fodder like Blissey. 

 

Sure the scenario looks like this when Leftovers but

4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 108+ Def Deoxys-D: 84-102 (27.6 - 33.5%) -- 76.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

but keep in mind Deoxys-D's most used set was Agility+Taunt meaning the only real stat booster would be Agility which still results in 

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 108+ Def Deoxys-D: 78-92 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Though the situation that the player switches out Deoxys-D when facing such a thing makes the possibility of Deoxys-D being banned highly improbable. Sure Deoxys-D can wall effectively with Utility Wall but you're relying on the idea that you're going to outspeed anything with a status move. Otherwise, Deoxys-D will easily be withered down with the likes of Will-o-Wisp.

 

 

BP teams aren't a problem if you bother to carry Taunt, Disable, Torment, Trick(Choice situations *cough*Jirachi*cough*, Dragon Tail, Roar, Whirlwind, and Circle Throw. Three of which saw higher usage thanks to Roar and Whirlwind bypassing Subs and Sableye being made OU. If a BP team bothers to make it to the Top 10 on Showdown OU then maybe it's a possibility.

 

Either way, if you think Deoxys S/D are threats as well as chain BP teams then you probably think Garchomp runs Fire Fang better than Fire Blast and that Ditto should be banned. 

[ihop]

They won't ban Deoxys-S or Deoxys-D. Forretress is one of OU's worst offensive Pokemon and Deoxys-D gets the tar knocked out of it. 

0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Deoxys-S has a few problems. It's squishy first off. Its main usage aside from the obvious Nasty Plot set is laying entry hazards. Majority of the leads nowadays won't have a problem with an entry hazards set. As for Nasty Plot. The ability to safely switch in and setup successfully is a huge issue due to the squishiness. Sure you could use it in a Check scenario but that's a bit iffy. As for Deoxys-D. It's setup fodder like Blissey. 

 

Sure the scenario looks like this when Leftovers but

4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 108+ Def Deoxys-D: 84-102 (27.6 - 33.5%) -- 76.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

but keep in mind Deoxys-D's most used set was Agility+Taunt meaning the only real stat booster would be Agility which still results in 

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 108+ Def Deoxys-D: 78-92 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Though the situation that the player switches out Deoxys-D when facing such a thing makes the possibility of Deoxys-D being banned highly improbable. Sure Deoxys-D can wall effectively with Utility Wall but you're relying on the idea that you're going to outspeed anything with a status move. Otherwise, Deoxys-D will easily be withered down with the likes of Will-o-Wisp.

 

 

BP teams aren't a problem if you bother to carry Taunt, Disable, Torment, Trick(Choice situations *cough*Jirachi*cough*, Dragon Tail, Roar, Whirlwind, and Circle Throw. Three of which saw higher usage thanks to Roar and Whirlwind bypassing Subs and Sableye being made OU. If a BP team bothers to make it to the Top 10 on Showdown OU then maybe it's a possibility.

 

Either way, if you think Deoxys S/D are threats as well as chain BP teams then you probably think Garchomp runs Fire Fang better than Fire Blast and that Ditto should be banned. 

 

I am going to explain one by one everything that is wrong about this post, which is a lot.

Forretress is not even OU for a start, it sucks and should never be used in OU. You're far better off using Deoxys-D as a suicide hazard lead.

 

The reason Deoxys formes warrant a ban is because they are the defining force behind DeoSharp hyperoffense, which makes the metagame incredibly stale as the playstyle is so just "lol click random moves". The durability of Deo-D is irrelevant, It's enough to guarantee rocks and a layer of spikes most of the time, and it's not setup fodder because all good sets now are max speed Taunt. Once you have hazards up you can pressure them on the field with Bisharp pseudo-defog blocking, and just spam sweepers/wallbreakers and win. Deo-S is the same concept but it tends to set up screens over spikes.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding agility.

 

None of the things you mentioned that beat baton pass are actually viable - Taunt is bounced back by Espeon and Scolipedes just run mental herb to ignore it then pass a sub, disable just stops them using the boosting move and is incredibly inconsistant, Dragon Tail/Circle throw are blocked by substitute, I have no idea why torment beats it at all and trick scarf fails at a substitute.

 

You say multiple things in your post which suggest that you have no idea about the metagame such as "Sableye is OU" and "its main usage aside from the obvious Nasty Plot", plus that last sentence is extremely combative and doesn't really help prove your point.

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

I am going to explain one by one everything that is wrong about this post, which is a lot.

Forretress is not even OU for a start, it sucks and should never be used in OU. You're far better off using Deoxys-D as a suicide hazard lead.

 

The reason Deoxys formes warrant a ban is because they are the defining force behind DeoSharp hyperoffense, which makes the metagame incredibly stale as the playstyle is so just "lol click random moves". The durability of Deo-D is irrelevant, It's enough to guarantee rocks and a layer of spikes most of the time, and it's not setup fodder because all good sets now are max speed Taunt. Once you have hazards up you can pressure them on the field with Bisharp pseudo-defog blocking, and just spam sweepers/wallbreakers and win. Deo-S is the same concept but it tends to set up screens over spikes.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding agility.

 

None of the things you mentioned that beat baton pass are actually viable - Taunt is bounced back by Espeon and Scolipedes just run mental herb to ignore it then pass a sub, disable just stops them using the boosting move and is incredibly inconsistant, Dragon Tail/Circle throw are blocked by substitute, I have no idea why torment beats it at all and trick scarf fails at a substitute.

 

You say multiple things in your post which suggest that you have no idea about the metagame such as "Sableye is OU" and "its main usage aside from the obvious Nasty Plot", plus that last sentence is extremely combative and doesn't really help prove your point.

And it's with this post that I know you're clearly knew to the competitive scene. None of them are viable? Are you actually serious? LOL. Sableye has been confirmed OU for awhile now. Nasty Plot set? It's the only actual choice besides Deoxys-S suicide lead and Deoxys-D being setup fodder. Scolipede running Mental Herb? You cannot be serious. Oh yes, TrickScarfing a Pokemon that has substitute. Your example relies on the opponent being an idiot clearly. No idea about Agility being used? Gee, it was standard last gen and last time I checked there are currently no standard sets in Gen 6 except for the banned megas and obvious sets that were brought back. Everything else is just what's commonly used. Bisharp and Deoxys-D in the same team? Great job Hoppy, you're using an incredibly bad duo that provide little to no synergy. 

Do you even know what warrants a ban from OU? It overcentralizes the metagame, proves itself to be too powerful, or creates a variable that upsets the balance of said metagame. Ex. SwagPlay None of which Deoxys-D or Deoxys-S do unless you wish to argue that they're viable threats or sweepers. Please, don't act like you know how the metagame works when you don't even know what warrants a ban. 

[ihop]

Bisharp and Deoxys-D in the same team? Great job Hoppy, you're using an incredibly bad duo that provide little to no synergy. 

 

lol

 

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116390684

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-playstyle-of-the-week-hyper-offense.3505568/

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115713752

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115484061

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/deosharp-the-new-age-of-hyper-offense.3502695/

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

lol

 

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116390684

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-playstyle-of-the-week-hyper-offense.3505568/

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115713752

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115484061

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/deosharp-the-new-age-of-hyper-offense.3502695/

73 messages and the team isn't even laddering. That and Lucarionite is lolbanned so obvious different metagame because teams are changed up so they don't have to carry specific Checks or Counters for it. 
"The first and most obvious partner that should be ran with a Deoxys on a Hyper Offensive team is Bisharp. It compliments Deoxys well typing wise, resisting Dark and Ghost, while having a neutrality to Bug type. Bisharp puts immense pressure on the opponent with it's ability Defiant as it discourages Defog users to remove hazards or they risk a +2 Bisharp coming in hot. Just having a Bisharp on your team forces your opponent to play more carefully as to think about taking a ton of residual damage from stacked hazards or simply Defog them away and accept the consequence of having a boosted Bisharp in your face. Another thing on how the two of them compliment each other is that Bisharp is not the bulkiest Pokemon around and might die rather quickly if it takes too many shots, Deoxys-Defense remedies this problem by being able to sponge a bunch of hits and force out attackers. Bisharp forces a ton of switches and thus generate even more residual damage build up while Deoxys is excellent death fodder so something can come in safely. Bisharp is also able to Pursuit trap common things that threaten Deoxys such as Espeon or Aegislash."
 

The Bold: Let's check OU's common bugs shall we? 

Scizor:
https://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/scizor/ou
Most Common set vs standard Deoxys and Bisharp, especially when the statement involves the idea of using Deoxys-D and Bisharp to help Check each other's weaknesses. 

In the situation that you're facing someone remotely intelligent, they will probably see your switch incoming when Deoxys-D is out. 

Enjoy the OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 860-1016 (308.2 - 364.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Want to argue U-Turn was used?

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 189-223 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Congrats, you successfully let your Bisharp be nearly OHKOd.
Want to argue Deoxys-D stayed in?
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Deoxys-D: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

More near OHKOs. Congrats on failing miserably against standard Scizor.

Volcarona?
252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Deoxys-D: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Want to argue it was Bisharp that helped with that "synergy"?
252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 396-468 (141.9 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Want to argue Deoxys-D carries Twave? Thankfully Volcarona carries Lum Berry which nulls that Twave for one turn allowing a successful 2HKO

 

What's next? Pinsirite, right?

Gotta love that 2HKO

252 Atk Mega Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bisharp helps with that bug weakness, right?
252 Atk Mega Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 150-177 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh look at that, a 2HKO. You want to say Bisharp will kill it anyway with Sucker Punch?

Big fat NOPE

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 156-185 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

It helps fight off Ghost and Psychics, right?
Good old Focus Blast

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 700-828 (250.8 - 296.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Deoxys-D helps that, right? Oh yes, prediction skills are required to be any good in OU, especially enough to ladder.
Oh how I love said 2HKOs

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-D: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Sableye serves a different role so comparing Gengar and Sableye is like comparing Forretress and Scizor. 
Offensive Dark in OU. Oh, you mean Mandibuzz with serves as a phazer which itself is again a different role.

 

Let's check the other arguments for it shall we?
"With its typing its able to switch into the Aegislash and trap it to allow Deoxys to continue to setup hazards. Meanwhile, Deoxys can switch in on Fighting types to cover for Bisharp and give it an opportunity to set up. "
Oh Terrakion, oh how I love you 
2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even with a Fighting move?
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 97-114 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 91.4% chance to 3HKO

Oh yes, Deoxys-D can't do anything to double dose of Close Combat since you're using it to Check. Enjoy taking the X-Scissor that finishes off Deoxys-D when you decide to use Knock Off and give it a

+1 252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 326-384 (116.8 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That bug move? Oh the one that 2HKOs

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 130-154 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

 

If you're going to argue that there's synergy, keep in mind noteworthy sweepers in the tier itself can cover those types. 

 

 

[ihop]

Sinclair is an SPL player, he's easily among the top few OU players in the game. You might notice by the fact that the RMT has 35 likes, and that it got archived that this guy clearly knows what he is doing.

 

Also lol at X-Scissor Mega-Pinsir and CB scizor being standard.

 

I can't even be bothered to answer the rest of your arguments.

 

EDIT: Ok, I read them. You keep focusing on the most irrelevant part of the DeoSharp core - their typing synergy. They don't have that good defensive synergy but that's irrelevant because Deoxys-D is most likely going to faint within five turns after it sets up Stealth Rocks and a layer of spikes. The point is that Deoxys-D sets up the hazards, then Bisharp makes sure they stay on the field because nobody really wants to Defog on a Bisharp because it gains the Defiant boost, meaning it can sweep on its own, not to mention Defog/Rapid Spin wasting a turn which you don't want to waste against a Hyperoffensive team. The other members of the team are just as many powerhouses as you can find such as Specs Keldeo, Thundurus, Landorus etc. That is the idea of DeoSharp offense, it applies to Deo-S as well.

[Zauls]

@Jaden

 

Its hilarious that anyone would be retarded enough to think that DeoSharp is a bad core and that Deoxys formes shouldn't be banned. They are cheap sources of entry hazards and DeoSharp is a fantastic HO team. If you're running Deoxys, type synergy matters very little, so any arguments like that are invalid. Defensive type synergy only matters in, well, defensive cores.

Also, you completely base your argument off ignoring half of the information posted about how Deoxys and Bisharp have such good synergy. That obviously shows you are trying desperately to win a lost argument.

 

Also, some examples of where you displayed a complete ignorance for the metagame:

 

 

They won't ban Deoxys-S or Deoxys-D. Forretress is one of OU's worst offensive Pokemon and Deoxys-D gets the tar knocked out of it. 

 

Forretress is not OU and you shouldn't base how good a Pokemon is simply on how much damage other things can do to it.

 

Deoxys-S has a few problems. It's squishy first off. Its main usage aside from the obvious Nasty Plot set is laying entry hazards. Majority of the leads nowadays won't have a problem with an entry hazards set. As for Nasty Plot. The ability to safely switch in and setup successfully is a huge issue due to the squishiness. Sure you could use it in a Check scenario but that's a bit iffy. As for Deoxys-D. It's setup fodder like Blissey. 

 

Obvious Nasty Plot set? Deoxys NEVER runs Nasty Plot. It is pretty much always a hazard lead. Because of Deo-S' speed and Deo-D's bulk, they are pretty much guaranteed a couple of hazards and they are staying there because of Bisharp having Defiant to stop Defoggers. 

 

but keep in mind Deoxys-D's most used set was Agility+Taunt meaning the only real stat booster would be Agility which still results in

 

Again, you are just pulling stuff from your arse here. Deo-D does NOT use Agility like ever.

 

BP teams aren't a problem if you bother to carry Taunt, Disable, Torment, Trick(Choice situations *cough*Jirachi*cough*, Dragon Tail, Roar, Whirlwind, and Circle Throw. Three of which saw higher usage thanks to Roar and Whirlwind bypassing Subs and Sableye being made OU. If a BP team bothers to make it to the Top 10 on Showdown OU then maybe it's a possibility.

 

Scarf Jirachi with Trick? Scarf Jirachi was good in Gen 5, but Trick was never used. These days Jirachi is hardly even viable. iHop explained most of the other things wrong about this.

 

Either way, if you think Deoxys S/D are threats as well as chain BP teams then you probably think Garchomp runs Fire Fang better than Fire Blast and that Ditto should be banned. 

 

This is just random accusations with no ground whatsoever and doesn't help anything.

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

@Jaden

 

Its hilarious that anyone would be retarded enough to think that DeoSharp is a bad core and that Deoxys formes shouldn't be banned. They are cheap sources of entry hazards and DeoSharp is a fantastic HO team. If you're running Deoxys, type synergy matters very little, so any arguments like that are invalid. Defensive type synergy only matters in, well, defensive cores.

Also, you completely base your argument off ignoring half of the information posted about how Deoxys and Bisharp have such good synergy. That obviously shows you are trying desperately to win a lost argument.

 

Also, some examples of where you displayed a complete ignorance for the metagame:

I like how you all think Bisharp is going to get that Defiant boost. It's a good core? Then show it topping the Top 10 on Showdown please. Desperately wanting to win an argument? I have an argument. What do you have? Shitty insults and no arguments. It's a good core? Oh, it's good because they setup hazards and make opposing ones disappear? Do you know how many other cores do this? As for CB Scizor not being standard. 

Hello CB Scizor at 49.162% usage http://paste.ubuntu.com/5939795/

As for X-Scissor Pinsir. Gee, were you ever smart enough to realize STAB that isn't Flying actually comes in handy? 

 

If you're both going to argue with me, please have actual support to your argument. I can easily say the Clefable and mAmph core as well as the Xatu and Landorus-T core are effective because Silent Platform managed to get to the Top 15 with them both in the same OU format where mKanga was legal. 

[ihop]

I like how you all think Bisharp is going to get that Defiant boost. It's a good core? Then show it topping the Top 10 on Showdown please. Desperately wanting to win an argument? I have an argument. What do you have? Shitty insults and no arguments. It's a good core? Oh, it's good because they setup hazards and make opposing ones disappear? Do you know how many other cores do this? As for CB Scizor not being standard. 

Hello CB Scizor at 49.162% usage http://paste.ubuntu.com/5939795/

As for X-Scissor Pinsir. Gee, were you ever smart enough to realize STAB that isn't Flying actually comes in handy? 

 

If you're both going to argue with me, please have actual support to your argument. I can easily say the Clefable and mAmph core as well as the Xatu and Landorus-T core are effective because Silent Platform managed to get to the Top 15 with them both in the same OU format where mKanga was legal. 

 

I believe Arcanine is Regal, the person whose links I posted was top 10 on the ladder for quite some time and, as Sinclair said, there were others as well. I was also talking to a friend of mine recently called Prankster who at some point made top 10 on the ladder with DeoSharp.

 

X-Scissor Mega-Pinsir is awful as it cannot possibly fit it, with Frustration, Quick Attack, Earthquake and Swords Dance all being far more useful.

 

I've clearly posted an argument by showing the general Hyperoffense thread on smogon where everyone talks about Deosharp, and Sinclair's RMT which shows the idea of the DeoSharp core very well.

 

Stop being so combative when your knowledge is lacking.

[Zauls]

I like how you all think Bisharp is going to get that Defiant boost. It's a good core? Then show it topping the Top 10 on Showdown please. Desperately wanting to win an argument? I have an argument. What do you have? Shitty insults and no arguments. It's a good core? Oh, it's good because they setup hazards and make opposing ones disappear? Do you know how many other cores do this? As for CB Scizor not being standard. 

Hello CB Scizor at 49.162% usage http://paste.ubuntu.com/5939795/

As for X-Scissor Pinsir. Gee, were you ever smart enough to realize STAB that isn't Flying actually comes in handy? 

 

If you're both going to argue with me, please have actual support to your argument. I can easily say the Clefable and mAmph core as well as the Xatu and Landorus-T core are effective because Silent Platform managed to get to the Top 15 with them both in the same OU format where mKanga was legal. 

 

The point isn't that Bisharp will get the Defiant boost. The point is that your opponent will not want to Defog because if they do then Bisharp will get the boost. That means the hazards are pretty much going to stay there, which is incredibly important, I'm sure you'll agree (if you don't, you're even worse than I thought). Basically, you either get a massively boosted Bisharp or you get hazards.

Also I'm not insulting you, I'm just saying what's true. You obviously have no idea about the metagame and your arguments are silly.

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

The point isn't that Bisharp will get the Defiant boost. The point is that your opponent will not want to Defog because if they do then Bisharp will get the boost. That means the hazards are pretty much going to stay there, which is incredibly important, I'm sure you'll agree (if you don't, you're even worse than I thought). Basically, you either get a massively boosted Bisharp or you get hazards.

Also I'm not insulting you, I'm just saying what's true. You obviously have no idea about the metagame and your arguments are silly.

At least I'm the one bothering to backup the argument. Those people reached the Top 10? Don't suppose there's any proof to that claim is there? 

[ihop]

At least I'm the one bothering to backup the argument. Those people reached the Top 10? Don't suppose there's any proof to that claim is there? 

 

Why do you talk about top 10 on the ladder like it's some holy grail of viability?