Tie/DRAW

[Sleepy]

Lets talk about the concept of ending games in a draw. 

What do you people think? Is it a good thing that it exists? Should it be prevented as much as possible and would be preferably erased if possible? Or should it be simply tolerated when it starts existing?

 

Regardless of how detailed rules can get about ways to secretly avoid this, when in a casual match where both players agree, nothing can stop it if they just want to leave it as is and move on to something else, so this option I'm not gonna be taking into account.

 

Even Chess can come to an official draw when only the kings remain on each side.

For Yugioh, any card that can simultaneously burn both players will do (Destruction Ring, Ring of Destruction, maybe Tremendous Fire, etc.) In the same way, win condition effects in very unholy situational ways like both players getting Exodia in their starting hand are technically possible.

 

I was curious. Is there a way to draw in other known big TCGs? (MTG, Pokemon, Duel Masters, Vanguard, to name the biggest ones I know of) and is it such a big nightmare for the judges to just make people earn half-points?

 

 

 

I start this thread for the sake of clearing doubts more than anything else.

[J-Max]

I always thoguth whoever's Life Points went to 0 first during the effect lost first. So say Tremendous Fire will finish the opponent before you. I do agree that a Draw should be implimented however. If it was a 3 Match Duel then both players would win it skipping the second Duel.

[Toffee.]

Thing is, draws in Ygo were never really that big of an issue until some jackass decided it was a good idea to make it into a deck that forces said condition onto the game.
Not only was this blatantly unfair because after [X] games because it forced the game into whoever drew the first Burn card, but it was also lacked any effort and punished the opponent for literally just playing the game.

[Blake]

 

Only way to draw without going into time with the same damage in Vanguard, to my knowledge.

 

And even then, it's optional, so it's just style points to do so.

[Goose]

There used to be a user who loved to use Self Destruct Button.  I think the concept with the deck was to tie until you get into time and then side into like burn maybe so that you end the game with more Life Points

[evilfusion]

Draws aren't inherently the problem.

 

The problem is cards that have no purpose other than ending the Duel as such. Self-Destruct Button was a stupid card because its condition and effect were blatantly for troll purposes. "I'm going to lose, so I'll stop you from winning".

[Goose]

Draws aren't inherently the problem.

 

The problem is cards that have no purpose other than ending the Duel as such. Self-Destruct Button was a stupid card because its condition and effect were blatantly for troll purposes. "I'm going to lose, so I'll stop you from winning".

 

I'd say the bigger issue with SDB was the shitty way it played out in tournaments.  The deck's only purpose was exploiting the rules

[evilfusion]

Yes, it being exploited was an issue, but I just tend to think that a card should not explicitly create a draw scenario. Last Turn was another such case, although it made some slight sense there, since its effect was intentionally a win condition. (Not that Last Turn wasn't already problematic).

[Airride]

Is there a way to draw in other known big TCGs? (MTG, Pokemon, Duel Masters, Vanguard, to name the biggest ones I know of) and is it such a big nightmare for the judges to just make people earn half-points?

I'd like to talk about this for a second.

In Pokemon there are 3 Ways to win; Getting all of your Prize Card, Knocking out all of your Opponent's Pokemon, and Not having Any Cards in your deck to draw at the start of a turn.

The last one can't be done by both players at the same time, so that's not a problem.

The second two, to draw, have to be done mostly intentionally; There are few (Good) Pokemon that have recoiling moves, and even then, very few have significant recoil. However, this would be able to be more reliably trigger when attacking into Rocky Helmet and Rocky Shield, two common items, especially in Garbodor and Tooltime decks, very popular decks for budget players. Usually, though, these two methods of drawing are rare, and only in very close games anyways, so drawing in Pokemon isn't too big of a deal.

Until you get to the Tournament System.

There's a rule going around in this year's Play!Pokemon events called "50+3"; 50 Minutes, plus 3 turns. Keep in mind that these games are played 2 out of 3. If you finish a game in 50 minutes, good. If you don't, however, you have 3 turns to get more prizes than your opponent. Whoever has the most prizes gets that game, then the wins are compared.

So, this often leads to bullshit wins (Was starting to make a comeback, but couldn't get a prize in time) and a LOT of draws (Win 1, have less prizes at the end of 3, draw. Win 1, lose 1, equal in prizes at the end of 3, draw [the first is MUCH more common, reportedly]). It also completely changes how to play the game, as you either have to be hyper aggressive and waste resources how you normally wouldn't, or be hyper defensive and, again, waste resources abnormally.

This has been so bad that, supposedly, at multiple major events, people have gotten into top cut with NOTHING BUT DRAWS (Or at least a minute number of wins, but mostly draws) There's quite an outcry about it.

 

EDIT: If you want to read more about this, go HERE. (And to note, X/Y/Z is Win/Loss/Tie, just to avoid confusion)

[werewolfjedi]

that does indeed sound broken.

 

on the tournament scene for magic, draws are actually very common, because in magic the tournaments have decided to not "give wins" from the fact that one of the biggest mottos in this game has become " you can win with one" as in 1 card, 1 life, just one play can be all you need to completely change the game, or even win out of no where.

thankfully, magic tournaments are often fast paced enough that someone has a win before that, so then it becomes on the 2/3 as win draw draw. meaning he has the win and gets the higher placement, but not as high as someone who has win-loss-win, or win-win-skip/win (some tournaments push a triple win to a higher placement for balancing player match-ups. which I think is a good thing cause watching someone lose first round and then have to work their way back up even if they have sweeping wins gives them nearly equal wins but horrible tiebreakers, which is no fun when you win all the other rounds, but your tie breakers are so bad you my not make top 8 in a larger tournament. it has happened.)

[Synchronized]

I mean I don't hate draws in theory.

At locals, often times I'll go 3-0 and whoever else is 3-0 at the start of the final round will just draw with me so we're both guaranteed to top.

But cards that FORCE a draw, eh. Don't really care for that. If two players want to draw for their own benefit, it should be mutual.

[Airride]

I'd like to talk about this for a second.

In Pokemon there are 3 Ways to win; Getting all of your Prize Card, Knocking out all of your Opponent's Pokemon, and Not having Any Cards in your deck to draw at the start of a turn.

The last one can't be done by both players at the same time, so that's not a problem.

The second two, to draw, have to be done mostly intentionally; There are few (Good) Pokemon that have recoiling moves, and even then, very few have significant recoil. However, this would be able to be more reliably trigger when attacking into Rocky Helmet and Rocky Shield, two common items, especially in Garbodor and Tooltime decks, very popular decks for budget players. Usually, though, these two methods of drawing are rare, and only in very close games anyways, so drawing in Pokemon isn't too big of a deal.

Until you get to the Tournament System.

There's a rule going around in this year's Play!Pokemon events called "50+3"; 50 Minutes, plus 3 turns. Keep in mind that these games are played 2 out of 3. If you finish a game in 50 minutes, good. If you don't, however, you have 3 turns to get more prizes than your opponent. Whoever has the most prizes gets that game, then the wins are compared.

So, this often leads to bullshit wins (Was starting to make a comeback, but couldn't get a prize in time) and a LOT of draws (Win 1, have less prizes at the end of 3, draw. Win 1, lose 1, equal in prizes at the end of 3, draw [the first is MUCH more common, reportedly]). It also completely changes how to play the game, as you either have to be hyper aggressive and waste resources how you normally wouldn't, or be hyper defensive and, again, waste resources abnormally.

This has been so bad that, supposedly, at multiple major events, people have gotten into top cut with NOTHING BUT DRAWS (Or at least a minute number of wins, but mostly draws) There's quite an outcry about it.

 

EDIT: If you want to read more about this, go HERE. (And to note, X/Y/Z is Win/Loss/Tie, just to avoid confusion)

 

I must amend this after reading into it further; The tiebreaker-esque system does NOT exist.

After 50 minutes, you have 3 turns to finish the game. If you don't it isn't counted, thus 1 Win and 1 Loss almost ALWAYS becomes a tie.

[Sleepy]

I must amend this after reading into it further; The tiebreaker-esque system does NOT exist.

After 50 minutes, you have 3 turns to finish the game. If you don't it isn't counted, thus 1 Win and 1 Loss almost ALWAYS becomes a tie.

I see. That DOES sound messy. Third games are not uncommon and if Pokemon has at least kept the speed I remember despite the powercreeped stats, a Pokemon game lasts longer than a Yugioh game. It should be fairly common to see a tie over either other result. 

 

 

 

Those long games are usually awesome ones. From personal experience it's usually very thoughtful and conservative moves more or less evenly matched. It actually makes me a bit sad that those have to be rushed for the greater benefit out of an event (yeah I understand time issues when big tournaments and that some people just take longer to abuse the system, but still sad). This paragraph of mine is a bit off-topic, but anyways.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

Long games stink. I want to be able to finish matches quickly, not sit around for 30 minutes for something to happen. Either win the game fast or don't play at all.

 

Off topic, so I'll get back to the original point of: draws are horrendous design because they're a waste of both player's time. Not just one or the other. And you also don't get the gratification of winning, or the embarrassment or shame of losing; it basically comes down to "what was the point of all that?", and that's not something that should ever happen concerning a card game.

[Sleepy]

Long games stink. I want to be able to finish matches quickly, not sit around for 30 minutes for something to happen. Either win the game fast or don't play at all.

 

Sometimes it's bad, sometimes it isn't. I appreciate long duels in which strategies can slowly get better, more a la Goat Control. Maybe faster than that is ok. Depends on how much faster.

I'd say you can also not abuse on the speed factor. At the start of the Xyz era I saw these two players with expensive decks of the format starting a duel. They drew their initial hand and one of them said "I have OTK do you have something?". The other just said no and they shuffled their cards again to start a "new duel".

If THAT's what a card game is supposed to be, then card games are far too pointless, luck-based, and mediocre. I'm here to pass the time, not to fast-forward through it.

[Azuh]

So wait. If you were to lets say Relay Soul a piece of Exodia, then you draw all 4 pieces in your hand, then you compulse your Exodia piece back to your hand. Doe sthe game end in a draw?

[Blake]

So wait. If you were to lets say Relay Soul a piece of Exodia, then you draw all 4 pieces in your hand, then you compulse your Exodia piece back to your hand. Doe sthe game end in a draw?

You auto lose.