Evolzars Laggia and Dolkka

[Sora1499]

 

 

People are always sooooo nice to these two damn cards.

"Laggia didn't abuse Rabbit, Rabbit abused Laggia"

"Saying <x card is terribly designed> is like saying that the Evolzars are terribly designed because Dinosaur is a Type."

F*ck that s***.  The Evolzars are awfully designed Xyz that give you waaaaaay too great of a reward for a relatively low investment.  I believe that a toolboxable Judgment and a 2x War Chariot on solid 23-24 bodies are poorly designed and, quite frankly, broken.  Prove me wrong.

[Maeriberii Haan]

They're badly designed. Though I'm enjoying making Soldda in Hazy Flames post Prio.

[goddamnit names are a pain]

You mean Laggia and Dolkka.

 

Title says Soldda.

 

Laggia is the bad one. I honestly don't have huge beef with Dolkka. Not to use bad logic, but baiting is not that hard. 
Laggia just feels too good at what it does.

Oh, just noticed Dolkka is not a once per turn.

Logic----->out window

[Aix]

This is Soldda.

 

Ok.

 

I did face a Dino Rabbit deck the other day. Got a shit hand, so I lost, but it was pretty weak.

[Toffee.]

"Saying <x card is terribly designed> is like saying that the Evolzars are terribly designed because Dinosaur is a Type."

That's not what I meant, and you know it.

I believe that a toolboxable Judgment and a 2x War Chariot on solid 23-24 bodies are poorly designed and, quite frankly, broken.  Prove me wrong.

The thing behind them, is primarily because of this: Why aren't these Archetype-Specific?
What I'm getting at here, is because these aren't as TRULY generic as they appear to be, but it's the fact Dinosaurs have become a thing(or at least, something) over the years, and it made these more playable then people first thought. Yes, I'm ignoring Rabbit. The point is, it's because they wanted to push these cards just to be a bunch of jackasses over at Konami. Like, if these honestly were Archetype-specific, and Evo-Force wasn't a card, these would be slow as hell even for a reward of this magnitude. Or something like that.

[Blake]

But Rabbit is the problem.

 

This thing can only be summoned efficiently using cards that require interaction with the opponent or slow revival cards/Double summon/etc.

 

This isn't like Brionac where it creates degenerate gamestates by itself. Set 5 Laggia is not Laggia's fault, it's Rescue Rabbit/the game in general's fault.

[ihop]

Dino-Rabbit is the deck I've had the most tournament success with seeing as I topped a regional with it, so I have a bit of a soft spot for the 2 guys. They're both fantastic cards but tbh if you're making them at a -1 they're not too broke. Rabbit really is the issue IMO, Evo Force/Najasho is pretty meh as it's kinda situational and the deck is really weak otherwise.

 

EDIT: Or Black could just ninja me and put it far better than I did.

[Sander]

This is just Sora trying to spread his butthurt to other people. Avoid him like the plague for the time being.

[Wildflame]

Man, you don't see these guys around anymore, sure feels nostalgic...

[Sora1499]

This is just Sora trying to spread his butthurt to other people. Avoid him like the plague for the time being.

This is hardly butthurt. I haven't played against Wabbit in like a year.
Also, changed title.

But Rabbit is the problem.
 
This thing can only be summoned efficiently using cards that require interaction with the opponent or slow revival cards/Double summon/etc.
 
This isn't like Brionac where it creates degenerate gamestates by itself. Set 5 Laggia is not Laggia's fault, it's Rescue Rabbit/the game in general's fault.

I'd argue that they give too much power to the user. They contribute to a degenerate game state, all they need is some support on the sides.
And you're argument doesn't hold up if Konami ever releases a decent archetype full of level 4 Dinos.

[Lonk]

Looks like Sora's going to have to take it in harder next time.

 

Even though walking negation is powerful, the fact that it isn't exactly easy to spam dinosaurs makes them more difficult to pull off.  Plus, since most Decks can work at a faster pace than these cards can negate, power creep is an unpleasant female.

[Miror B]

What's wrong with a bit of control in some decks?

[Blake]

This is hardly butthurt. I haven't played against Wabbit in like a year.
Also, changed title. I'd argue that they give too much power to the user. They contribute to a degenerate game state, all they need is some support on the sides.
And you're argument doesn't hold up if Konami ever releases a decent archetype full of level 4 Dinos.

The argument still holds up even if they do.

 

These will never be the problem. They will be bosses that are worth the effort to make them. But this does not, in any way, make these the issue.

 

If there are cards that enable these to be summoned in an unfair manner, then those cards are the problem. Again, it's not like other banned ED monsters.

 

Brionac creates OTKs and FTKs by existing and synergy with a bunch of mostly innocent cards.

 

DSF's a walking OTK.

 

Trishula's payoff is way too strong for the effort needed to make it. You "permanently" dispose of 3 cards and it doesn't even target.

 

Goyo's a 2800 that starts a +++++ train and can steal valuable cards from the opponent in the process. It's probably the least offensive on the list, but it's still fairly offensive that it's basically punch + change of heart.

 

Shock Master shuts down a gamestate. There is no baiting it in most scenarios, it simply shuts down 1/3rd of the game because it feels like it.

 

Zenmaity is literally spam in a can. It's loop loop loop loop in multiple ways and is totally detrimental to the gamestate.

 

Now, do you see the difference here?

 

Dolkka and Laggia can slow down a gamestate and tell the opponent "you cannot play yugioh", but they don't further your plays, they don't enable broken plays in and of themselves, they do not 100% shut out the opponent, they don't cause you to immediately out advantage the opponent just for your opponent to play around them like any boss, and so on.

 

They do not cause a detriment to the gamestate because they don't pro-actively harm it in any way. If you can s*** out both in a turn for little cost, yeah, that'd be an issue... but then the enabler of that would be the issue, not them/

 

EDIT: And don't use cards like SD/AM as an argument. That is a recurring bomb to the gamestate that doesn't deserve to exist.

[Mugendramon]

Man, you don't see these guys around anymore, sure feels nostalgic...

[Dog King]

Jurrac Guaiba

#thread

[Bringerofcake]

 

 

So fun

So bad

[Sleepy]

I can at least say Laggia is an ok card.

You get to negate anything, but you only have 1 shot at it, and since it's not a face-down like Solemn Judgement, there's no surprise element here. Your opponent can always try to bait it out.

 

I complain about many bosses nowadays, but this one is a one-shot beatstick.

If I had to think about what the problem was, I'd say it's how you can hide behind a heavy backrow..... Even if it's not always gonna happen, I think there should be a limit to how many face-down Spell/Trap Cards you can Set in a turn, just like there's a limit to Normal Summons. 

 

Dolkka is a bit more debatable because monster effects can be more valuable and it has 2 shots at doing this. Though I can't speak for it's performance in competitive scenes.

 

 

 

 

So fun

So bad

Rabbit into Kabazauls

Activate Lemuria

Make this~

[Goose]

The whole concept of "broken" breaks down with this kind of semi-generic Xyz monsters.  We know that Evols aren't competitive.  If this cards condition was that you had to overlay Evol-dinosaurs, we wouldn't have this kind of conversation because they would never have been played in the first place.  However, Konami made them semi-generic which allowed for Rabbit to summon these monsters.  Since they are semi-generic it's possible for other, non-Evol, cards that Konami makes to access these guys.  There is the potential for the summoning condition to become laughable and for these to become a problem again.  

 

The real point here is that the summoning condition NEEDS to be taken into account when discussing balance and the fact of the mater is that these cards are variably hard to summon.  It's impossible to make a blanket statement of their balance.

[Toffee.]

EDIT: And don't use cards like SD/AM as an argument. That is a recurring bomb to the gamestate that doesn't deserve to exist.

To be fair, you have to jump through hoops to play Assault Mode monsters.
Ridiculously easy hoops, yes, but you still have to.
And no, I'm not once justifying a once-per-turn Solemn on a 3K body, as it's pretty stupid as far as card design goes.

[Slinky]

Looks like Sora's going to have to take it in harder next time.

 

Even though walking negation is powerful, the fact that it isn't exactly easy to spam dinosaurs makes them more difficult to pull off.  Plus, since most Decks can work at a faster pace than these cards can negate, power creep is an unpleasant female.

 

Hydrogeddon

Jurrac Guaiba

Jurrac Velos

 

Plenty easy.

Are we also forgetting Dinos have an upgraded ROTA?

[Toffee.]

Hydrogeddon
Jurrac Guaiba
Jurrac Velos

Hydrogeddon has to destroy an opponent's monster by battle
Guiba has to destroy an opponent's monster by battle
Velo has to be destroyed by an opponent's monster by battle

Refresh my memory-
When does Rabbit do any of these?

[Neochu-H]

 

 

So fun

So bad

lol why didn't i think of that.

 

anyways heres my criticism

 

laggia is soo broken that it lags

 

and dolkka dolks

 

meaning they are both broken. i guess we better start siding divine wrath and warning.

[Toffee.]

i guess we better start siding divine wrath and warning.

Aside from the fact Warning is mained in, well, basically everything-
Black just got done explaining that such cards only become an issue if they are just too easy to play, and the "struggle" to get said cards to the field is nonexistent.
Brionac lead to his own death because Level 6 Synchros are idiotically easy to make, and he did nothing but enable loops n' junk. Not to mention, when he first came out, we had Rescue Cat and Premature still floating around, so imagine how THAT went.
Goyo followed a similar issue, but the chink in his armor is the fact he has 2800 ATK. This basically ran over everything, if not, most of it, and just lead to more field presence for yourself, and was outright absurd. Compare this to Ghost Knight of Jackal, the Level 5 Effect-monster with 1900 ATK.
etc
etc
You get the idea.

[goddamnit names are a pain]

But that's like saying Exodia is fair because it is highly inconsistent.

*shot*

[Sora1499]

But that's like saying Exodia is fair because it is highly inconsistent.
*shot*

It's not doe. Exodia decks are relatively consistent.