Ancient Leaf

[heraldry_lord]

 

 

Ancient Leaf

Normal Spell Card

 

If you have 9000 Life Points or more, you can pay 2000 Life Points to draw 2 cards.

 

 

 

In an ordinary duel, this card takes real dedication to use, as only decks that lets you gain an enormous amount of LP, such as Soul Absorption builds, can really make use of this. 

 

However, now that tag dueling has officially become a thing, this card in that context is much more problematic.  Based on the official tag rules, the team has a shared LP of 16000.  This means that each team can theoretically use this card up to 4 times before it becomes dead.  In other words, this card in a tag duel is basically Pot of Greed that's allowed in 3's. 

 

So what do you think about this card?

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

One player could also be playing "bad LP gain deck" while the other one plays "full meta deck" just to gain extra uses of this card, considering both players can't use the same Limited card and such.

 

They may end up making a banlist just for tag duels, unless they don't intend to have any official tournaments with tag duels, in which case they won't give a crap.

[Mugendramon]

Busted in Tag Duels, shit otherwise.

 

Ji Endo

[玄魔の王]

Busted in Tag Duels, shit otherwise.

 

Ji Endo

Pretty much.

[heraldry_lord]

They may end up making a banlist just for tag duels, unless they don't intend to have any official tournaments with tag duels, in which case they won't give a crap.

 

YCS San Mateo has tag dueling. It's why I brought it up in the first place.

[Aerion Brightflame]

It's part of what makes Exodia in theory incredible in tag formats. And hence why the format terrible

 

One player runs this and the normal exodia stuff, with Hope from Escape, with the amount of extra draw, failing to draw the pieces seems unlikely in theory at least.

[Blake]

The Joke is that Tag Duel Format's already ruined because countdown is a card and only requires 5 turn of stall, not 10.

 

Alternately, you could say it takes 2 5 Turns, meaning advantage doesn't get as burned and opp has less time to fight back

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

The Joke is that Tag Duel Format's already ruined because countdown is a card and only requires 5 turn of stall, not 10.

 

Alternately, you could say it takes 2 5 Turns, meaning advantage doesn't get as burned and opp has less time to fight back

You do realize that it still means you have to stall all those turns, right? It's the exact same as if you were taking those turns normally for everyone but the person who played it, except that there are more copies of certain cards to go around and more life points, so it's still not right.

[Blake]

You do realize that it still means you have to stall all those turns, right? It's the exact same as if you were taking those turns normally for everyone but the person who played it, except that there are more copies of certain cards to go around and more life points, so it's still not right.

Except you have 2 hands with much more resources to do so?

 

It takes 10 cards to stall out the game with Countdown. 3x Waboku, 3x Scarecrow, 3x Roar, etc. each is a lot of chances that you're not gonna take any damage after you use countdown.

 

The opponent has less time, each, to stop you, and you have more resources to stop them.

 

Did I really have to spell every little part of that out, because I'm pretty sure I said the same damn thing.

 

Your opponent still has resources, but whoopdedo, what do general resources do against Countdown?

[Therrion]

All things considered, after how the first one goes, stall cards (rather, their win conditions eg Exodia/Countdown) and Ancient Leaf will be banned from Tag Duel play.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

No, they don't have less time. The number of turns is the exact same, and it's a player and an opponent each time. Neither side gets more turns than the other just because it's a tag duel. It would only be considered "less time" if only one player could do anything but there were still turns for the partners anyways.

[Blake]

No, they don't have less time. The number of turns is the exact same, and it's a player and an opponent each time. Neither side gets more turns than the other just because it's a tag duel. It would only be considered "less time" if only one player could do anything but there were still turns for the partners anyways.

Each opponent has 5 Turns. 

 

These collective turns do not inherently add up to anything, because it gives them less time and draws each to beat the clock.

 

While the teams have the same number of turns, you cannot count 2 people drawing 5 cards, total, from 33 cards in deck each the same as one person drawing 10 cards from 33 cards, because the deck are much thicker, rendering you less likely to draw exactly what you want with each and every draw.

 

So yes, it's less time.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Each opponent has 5 Turns. 

 

These collective turns do not inherently add up to anything, because it gives them less time and draws each to beat the clock.

 

While the teams have the same number of turns, you cannot count 2 people drawing 5 cards, total, from 33 cards in deck each the same as one person drawing 10 cards from 33 cards, because the deck are much thicker, rendering you less likely to draw exactly what you want with each and every draw.

 

So yes, it's less time.

It's less turns each player individually gets, yes, but not less collective turns per side and therefore not less turns.

[Sleepy]

Ancient Leaf is a really badly designed card.

For it to work consistently, you have to have more Life than what the initial amount is. Given how reducing those Life Points is the point of the game, it means that your opponent has to be overwhelmingly losing for you to do it, OR be completely untouched because your plays have been focusing on protecting and growing instead of moving on with the game.

 

Then once those scenarios are there, it's basically Pot of Greed at 3.

The design screams "I'm unusable or broken, but nothing in-between".

 

Due to what I just said here, now I realize that pretty much by default, Life-gain themes can't be a close match against your standard deck. You either have high Life or you don't, and I'm not even touching the issue that Life-gain themes in existance are either underwhelming or lack interaction altogether, or both.

 

Soooo thinking about it. For an interactive life-gaining theme to be fun, interesting, and fair without easily tilting to either side of the balance, it pretty much would need to provide it's opponent with an alternate win. 

Like, if you are gonna focus on high Life and your opponent is not supposed to be able take that down, a balanced route would be to convert what they'd usually do for damage into something else that would perjudicate you. Like some sort of Counters or self-damage, or deck-out goals, or whatever.

 

I guess....

[Blake]

... The implication was less per player. That's just reading comprehension that you should have inferred given the format.

 

It's less time per player. You could say it's time of less quality if you want to be technical, but connotations are, y'now, important.

 

Also, Countdown has this as a Pot of Greed, so maintaining that 5 cards of advantage is pretty laughably easy.

 

Yes, everything has this, but when your game is to draw 5 stall cards...

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

... The implication was less per player. That's just reading comprehension that you should have inferred given the format.

 

It's less time per player. You could say it's time of less quality if you want to be technical, but connotations are, y'now, important.

And I even said twice it's like that for everyone but the individual player, but it makes no mechanical difference in terms of time for the game and the number of turns each side gets. So if that's the only point you were making then you could have just said "exactly". Heck, I even mentioned as well that there are problems with it still and listed some of them, but you regurgitated them back as if I hadn't, and even then it was still unrelated to your point if all you were saying it "each individual player gets less turns".

 

Anyways, I'm mostly off topic even though this is related to the connotations of said card in a tag duel, but I'm going to shut up anyways.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

I wasn't even aware this card existed before Tag Duels....

 

Tag isn't much of a thing to me, I don't really recognize it, so you all do whatever the hell you want to this card, in the ACTUAL game, it's shit, and always will be.

[Azuh]

I personally think that this card would help speed up tag dueling, considering everyone has a 40 card deck and you have to go through two sets of opponents to win

[Mugendramon]

It takes one card per turn to stop them from killing you.

 

You can hold more than 20 turns with both players' starting hand alone.

 

That is fucking busted.

[Sora1499]

Tl;dr Ban Final Countdown.

[Toffee.]

Tl;dr Ban Final Countdown.

And to an extent, Deck destruction.
I mean, tag duels to state that if either player can't draw via having 0 cards, their whole team loses.
So just use your 6 Needle Worms and Morphing Jar #2 on 1 specific player and watch all hell break loose.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

And to an extent, Deck destruction.
I mean, tag duels to state that if either player can't draw via having 0 cards, their whole team loses.
So just use your 6 Needle Worms and Morphing Jar #2 on 1 specific player and watch all hell break loose.

You don't know which you will be hitting unless you can perfectly control when they will be flipped. I don't think that deckout is all that viable for tag duels either way.

[玄魔の王]

Tl;dr Ban Final Countdown.

And Exodia, Chain Burn, and Empty Jar. AKA decks that are sacky to begin with and don't deserve to exist.

 

Now that I think about it, take those sorts of decks out of the equation and the card is suddenly less evil. Yes it's Pot of Greed, but it's Pot of Greed with a cost. You can run it at 3, sure, but each team is then guaranteed 2 dead Leaves.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

 Yes it's Pot of Greed, but it's Pot of Greed with a cost. 

Life Points is never a justifiable cost.

[Maeriberii Haan]

especially if you have a ton of them.