Super Smash Bros. 3DS/Wii U

[TAG]

TAG CAME BACK!?!?!?
*Ahem*
 
I'm now curious as to how Megaman's final smash looks in-game.

Well, I was right next to Flame Dragon when I saw the post, so I had to jump in. :P I had no idea he still went on YCM so frequently. Nice to know that I'm apparently remembered by at least one person. ^_^

[Toffee.]

Nice to know that I'm apparently remembered by at least one person. ^_^

You always have the best avatars- How can I NOT forget you?

That aside...

Part of me is sad that I can't play ROB/G&W in the new Smash Bros.
Regardless, I'm still maining Villager and Megaman.

[Agro]

> Posts a screen shot of a quick motion and assumes everyone caught it because he did.

> Same picture clearly has him looking grey, later says "Naw, he doesn't look like that"

> Posts a picture at the second where everyone can tell it's Greninja, uses it as proof that no one should have missed that it was Greninja earlier in the trailer

 

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong to have noticed all of that, and you're certainly not the only one that did. But assuming it wasn't deliberately set up for people expecting Mewtwo would be a discredit to every single animator who worked on that trailer. The Mise en Scene was pretty clearly there and we already know Sakurai knows what fans want and knows how to troll them. Sure, I can't prove that was the initial intention, and on the same note, it can't really be proven that it wasn't, but for many, MANY people, simply by going in expecting Mewtwo to show up, or rather, really, REALLY WANTING Mewtwo to show up, they're much more likely to ignore the small details that say "It's not Mewtwo" and pay full attention to the parts that hint that it might be.

 

And that's where they can get fooled.

 

EDIT: For many people, they couldn't tell it was water until it finally broke up Charizard. The trick involved here was in the first two points where Greninja appears. Most, myself included, realized it wasn't him by either the end of the second appearance or the part where the Water Shuriken hits.

 

SECOND EDIT: Totally forgot to mention this, but look at Greninja's hands in the first two points where he appears, because the webbing between his fingers is barely visible on first look for a lot of people, if even there at all. His 3 fingers without the webbing look a lot like Mewtwo's

 

Final Edit: Anyway, there's definitely points there that can be argued were meant to be red herrings, and my whole argument isn't necessarily that that's what they ARE, but that's what they COULD BE.

[Toffee.]

Hey guys, real fast...
Charizard n' friends costumes from Brawl:

Now, given the fact he now has a Final Smash of being able to Mega Evolve, I honestly wonder what will become of Charizard, as far as alternate palates go.
Greninja, on the other hand, that will be another story, since I'll just assume each of his costumes will be just goofy color combos(I seriously hope for a reverse Greninja; blue tongue and pink skin, just for lulz)

[TAG]

You always have the best avatars- How can I NOT forget you?

That aside...

Part of me is sad that I can't play ROB/G&W in the new Smash Bros.
Regardless, I'm still maining Villager and Megaman.

Hehe, glad I was remembered. :)

As for me, I'm definitely going Mega Man, Little Mac, Greninja, and when he's announced, Wario (I can't see Sakurai dropping Wario but keeping Waluigi and adding Ashley).
 

> Posts a screen shot of a quick motion and assumes everyone caught it because he did.

And the fact that people didn't catch it means it was deceiving/misleading how?
 

> Same picture clearly has him looking grey, later says "Naw, he doesn't look like that"

Your useage of the word "grey" implies that it's a shade of grey that would indicate Mewtwo. None of those pictures have any shade of grey that hints towards Mewtwo. It's called "being shrouded in darkness". Also, you also claimed it to be purple. Where is it even slightly purple?
 

> Posts a picture at the second where everyone can tell it's Greninja, uses it as proof that no one should have missed that it was Greninja earlier in the trailer

Well, that's the only picture that clearly shows Greninja's tongue before revealing it to be Greninja. Ergo, the only shot where it could have been mistaken for Mewtwo's tail, as you claimed earlier, so...
 

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong to have noticed all of that, and you're certainly not the only one that did. But assuming it wasn't deliberately set up for people expecting Mewtwo would be a discredit to every single animator who worked on that trailer. The Mise en Scene was pretty clearly there and we already know Sakurai knows what fans want and knows how to troll them. Sure, I can't prove that was the initial intention, and on the same note, it can't really be proven that it wasn't, but for many, MANY people, simply by going in expecting Mewtwo to show up, or rather, really, REALLY WANTING Mewtwo to show up, they're much more likely to ignore the small details that say "It's not Mewtwo" and pay full attention to the parts that hint that it might be.

"But assuming it wasn't deliberately set up for people expecting Mewtwo would be a discredit to every single animator who worked on that trailer."

How?

"The Mise en Scene was pretty clearly there and we already know Sakurai knows what fans want and knows how to troll them."

No, it wasn't.

"Sure, I can't prove that was the initial intention, and on the same note, it can't really be proven that it wasn't"

So then why be so adamant that it was the intent to troll to the point where me claiming that it wasn't is apparently a discredit to the animators?

"but for many, MANY people, simply by going in expecting Mewtwo to show up, or rather, really, REALLY WANTING Mewtwo to show up, they're much more likely to ignore the small details that say "It's not Mewtwo" and pay full attention to the parts that hint that it might be"

So? Would that be any different if Sakurai had no intention to troll people with Greninja? Furthermore, absolutely nothing apart from maybe the hands could have been possibly hinting towards Mewtwo. Not the "grey/purple", not the projectile, certainly not the silhouette at the end (and thus, not the tongue). Also, I can't fathom how a giant shuriken in the middle of the blue thingy is a "small detail".
 

EDIT: For many people, they couldn't tell it was water until it finally broke up Charizard. The trick involved here was in the first two points where Greninja appears. Most, myself included, realized it wasn't him by either the end of the second appearance or the part where the Water Shuriken hits.
 
SECOND EDIT: Totally forgot to mention this, but look at Greninja's hands in the first two points where he appears, because the webbing between his fingers is barely visible on first look for a lot of people, if even there at all. His 3 fingers without the webbing look a lot like Mewtwo's
 
Final Edit: Anyway, there's definitely points there that can be argued were meant to be red herrings, and my whole argument isn't necessarily that that's what they ARE, but that's what they COULD BE.

First edit: "they couldn't tell it was water until it finally broke up Charizard"
Even if you couldn't tell it was water (somehow), in what way was a blue, splashy energy that very clearly had a spinning shuriken in the middle being built up hinting towards Mewtwo?

Second edit: Yeah, Greninja has the same webbing as well. If Sakurai had no intention of trolling, how else would he display hands making a ninja motion and building up a Water Shuriken?

Final Edit: Apart from MAAAAAAAAYBE the hands (which are a stretch, at best), no.

[Agro]

So then why be so adamant that it was the intent to troll to the point where me claiming that it wasn't is apparently a discredit to the animators?

The discredit to the animators was probably a bit too far. The thought there being that assuming things weren't done deliberately could be a discredit to the artists involved because it also implies they don't put much thought into their craft besides just making it look cool.

 

Now that I read back on my posts, I haven't been thinking and was arguing for the wrong argument.

 

Allow me to try to frame my argument the way I would on a formal Film Arts paper:

Sakurai had a habit of trolling the entirety of the show, and it's widely known he pays some attention to Miiverse, which involves a whole lot of fans clamoring for Mewtwo. Knowing that fans were wanting Mewtwo so badly, and knowing that he trolled often in the video, it can be argued that the he was trying to set up expectations for Mewtwo's appearance. Included in this is a pretty obvious lack of Mewtwo anywhere else in the trailer. For such a big-name Pokémon to not appear anywhere in that sequence of Pokémon leading up to that moment (or anywhere else in the game, for that matter), it could be inferred as done meaningfully.

 

My focus on how the look of Greninja was kept ambiguous stems only in the first point where it appears and up until it quite obviously is making a shuriken at the end of the second sequence- about the point I realized it wasn't Mewtwo and was probably Greninja. I'd argue that the greyish look of the body in that lighting is much more similar to Mewtwo than to Greninja, his three-fingers, in motion also resemble Mewtwo's 3 fingers as a silhouette, and it's quite easy to not see that the Shuriken was made of water and instead infer it as some sort of energy ball being put together. As for the "silhouette not looking anything like Mewtwo," I would counter that that silhouette in the first two scenes barely looked like anything, especially considering his body was upside-down making it even harder to realize it.

 

Finally, I'd argue that knowing fans were looking and hoping for Mewtwo, Sakurai could have easily planted the small bits purposefully to mislead viewers. He'd done so very blatantly in the show before, and he could easily trick the viewers into thinking it was Mewtwo, at least at the beginning. He likes to do it, and there would clearly be an easy way to do it. So it's not completely out of the question that Sakurai planted those moments purposefully to try to lead viewers astray before pulling the curtain on Greninja.

 

That's not to say there's no argument for there being nothing there and it all just being for show (literally everything that Charizard did was for show, after all). But I think there's an argument to be made that Sakurai did it on purpose. It's a possibility. I wouldn't automatically discredit it.

[Shradow]

Let's take a second to talk about some of the ridiculous things we've seen in the Direct.

 

Fire Bar Sword? Pong Assist Trophy? This is amazing.

[Agro]

Let's take a second to talk about some of the ridiculous things we've seen in the Direct.

 

Fire Bar Sword? Pong Assist Trophy? This is amazing.

It's not pong. It's a rip-off of pong. Which also made me almost spit up a glass of water all over my computer.

 

Fire Bar looks cool. Did it look like it was turning, or was it just losing a flame every time it hit someone?

[Shradow]

Pong is easier to say than Color TV-Game 15.

[Agro]

Yeah, but it's also totes wrong~

 

I feel like I'm only posting now just to get an excuse to look at the gif in my sig over and over again...

[Shradow]

I love reading tumblr posts about these sort of things.

 

 

reblog if you cry every time

[Agro]

I'm just saying, if Nintendo bought Capcom, they'd not only be able to make the best Mega Man games evar, but they'd also basically own all of the most popular games at the EVO fighting tournament.

[Shradow]

I'd totally be replacing my sig with some SSB4-related thing if it were not already a beautiful work of art (thanks to Tormented), but at the very least I've got a Greninja avatar for now.

[TAG]

The discredit to the animators was probably a bit too far. The thought there being that assuming things weren't done deliberately could be a discredit to the artists involved because it also implies they don't put much thought into their craft besides just making it look cool.
 
Now that I read back on my posts, I haven't been thinking and was arguing for the wrong argument.
 
Allow me to try to frame my argument the way I would on a formal Film Arts paper:
Sakurai had a habit of trolling the entirety of the show, and it's widely known he pays some attention to Miiverse, which involves a whole lot of fans clamoring for Mewtwo. Knowing that fans were wanting Mewtwo so badly, and knowing that he trolled often in the video, it can be argued that the he was trying to set up expectations for Mewtwo's appearance. Included in this is a pretty obvious lack of Mewtwo anywhere else in the trailer. For such a big-name Pokémon to not appear anywhere in that sequence of Pokémon leading up to that moment (or anywhere else in the game, for that matter), it could be inferred as done meaningfully.
 
My focus on how the look of Greninja was kept ambiguous stems only in the first point where it appears and up until it quite obviously is making a shuriken at the end of the second sequence- about the point I realized it wasn't Mewtwo and was probably Greninja. I'd argue that the greyish look of the body in that lighting is much more similar to Mewtwo than to Greninja, his three-fingers, in motion also resemble Mewtwo's 3 fingers as a silhouette, and it's quite easy to not see that the Shuriken was made of water and instead infer it as some sort of energy ball being put together. As for the "silhouette not looking anything like Mewtwo," I would counter that that silhouette in the first two scenes barely looked like anything, especially considering his body was upside-down making it even harder to realize it.
 
Finally, I'd argue that knowing fans were looking and hoping for Mewtwo, Sakurai could have easily planted the small bits purposefully to mislead viewers. He'd done so very blatantly in the show before, and he could easily trick the viewers into thinking it was Mewtwo, at least at the beginning. He likes to do it, and there would clearly be an easy way to do it. So it's not completely out of the question that Sakurai planted those moments purposefully to try to lead viewers astray before pulling the curtain on Greninja.
 
That's not to say there's no argument for there being nothing there and it all just being for show (literally everything that Charizard did was for show, after all). But I think there's an argument to be made that Sakurai did it on purpose. It's a possibility. I wouldn't automatically discredit it.

[spoiler="Spoilered to save space"]
Sakurai having a habit of trolling: Correct.

Sakurai trolled in the video multiple times: Correct.

This means it can be argued that he was setting up a reveal for Mewtwo to troll people: Not correct. As I've stated before, other than maybe the hands thing (which, as I've stated before, is a stretch at best), nothing in the video should have thrown people off (unless they had no idea who Greninja was).

Obvious lack of Mewtwo in trailer: So?

Lack of very well-known Pokemon could infer that it was done meaningfully: Why? The vast majority of the Pokemon shown in that trailer (outside of the playables) are Pokemon that can spawn out of the Pokeball/Master Ball item. The ones that aren't (which, from what I saw, were Snivy, Oshawott, Inkay, and Swirlix) can probably be implied to be Pokeball pokemon as well; otherwise, why throw in only a few random ones that don't spawn out of the item alongside everyone else who does? If Mewtwo doesn't appear as a playable character or as a Pokemon to spawn from the Pokeball item, what reason does he have to be there?

Greninja's look being ambiguous: Again, so? That can just as easily (and more likely) be just them building up suspense for the reveal. That doesn't mean that it's meant to be misleading.

Greyish lighting: On top of that shade of grey not even looking close to Mewtwo, it could be a dark shadow cast upon the character. Y'know, also to build up suspense. Once again, that doesn't mean it's meant to be misleading.
Three fingers: Yes, they can bear somewhat of a resemblance to Mewtwo.

In Motion: No. In motion, if you couldn't catch that it was Greninja, I can't see how you could mistake it for Mewtwo.

Easy to not see that it's a shuriken: You're going to have to make a hell of a case for that because the 4-pointed rotating star was the thing that solidified it for me.

Two starting silhouettes not looking like anything: So then why make the claim that it's Mewtwo? Just because of the fingers?

Final silhouette being upside down: The bottom of the figure looks nothing like either Mewtwo's head or his legs. Besides, I thought you said that the last silhouette was the one that made it obvious that it wasn't Mewtwo. Why the flip-flop?

Fans looking for Mewtwo: I can buy that.

Sakurai could have planted the bits to mislead: Also true, but A does not imply B in this case.

He's done so blatantly in the show before: Correct.

He could trick viewers into believing it's Mewtwo: Also correct, but once again, A does not imply B.

He likes to do it: Correct.

Easy way to do it: Far less correct. Or, rather, if that's correct, the trailer sure as hell is not good evidence in support of that. Even if it was, A wouldn't imply B.

Not out of the question: Correct, but at the same time, other than the hands, no concrete evidence logically points towards this (as I've stated over and over). No, the evidence you presented doesn't point towards this.

Not to say that there's no argument: You got that right.

Argument to be made that Sakurai did it on purpose: I disagree, and I also think you're almost completely wrong.

It's a possibility: The evidence heavily leans the other way, so if there's a possibility, it's currently negligible at best.

I wouldn't automatically discredit it: There is no reason for me to give it credit, given everything that was presented to us. You need much more than an assumption, even a reasonable assumption, to make a case here.
[/spoiler]

[Agro]

Sakurai could have planted the bits to mislead: Also true, but A does not imply B in this case.

> So you're arguing against my reasoning for the argument... and then you tell me my argument is true? Kay then. We're done here.

Argument to be made that Sakurai did it on purpose: I disagree, and I also think you're almost completely wrong.

> It's okay if you disagree. It's okay if you think I'm almost completely wrong. But you're in the same position as I am and you can't prove it. You can argue that there's no reason things were done besides for dramatic effect, but you can't prove that it wasn't done to make the viewer think one thing, if even for a brief second.

> This argument has grounding, even if you don't want to accept it. Most of the points you made could be easily answered with something along the lines of "Something that looks like nothing looks like something to people who are looking for something."

> I do agree with you that it's much more likely that this was just dramatic effect and that it was just coincidence a lot of the stuff made people think it was Mewtwo up until a shuriken appeared at which point it was painfully obvious that it wasn't Mewtwo, but I disagree with you that there's no grounding to say some of the artistic decisions were done with fans want of Mewtwo in mind and I think considering it as a possibility offers a unique and interesting perspective of the trailer as a whole- whether or not Mewtwo actually appears as a playable character (personally, I don't have an opinion on him actually being in it one way or the other. In melee, he's basically the character I play as if I want to give someone who's worse than me an even fight)

[Shradow]

I forget if I read this here or from a YouTube comment or whatever, but I totally agree with whoever said that Greninja's Final Smash looks like Strider Hiryu's Ragnarok.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYEIsG_0bDQ

 

[Toffee.]

Both are ninjas
Hurr hurr hurr

[Agro]

I'm betting you can look even further back in Japanese animation/games/ninja lore to find something else that's totally similar to that image.

[Flame Dragon]

Ok, TAG, Agro this seems to be going in circles. I think its time to end it.
 
Anyway, before heading to bed I made a thing


Its an updated version of my predictions for the remaining characters from Brawl.
Green = In Already
Yellow-Green Star = For Sure In
Orange = Likely Out
Red = Out

Now for reasons
Wolf: More or less a clone of Fox/Falco. Star Fox is a major franchise, but Nintendo hasn't done anything major with it for a while. 2 Reps is enough.
Ice climbers: Random retro character. Rosalina and Luma serve a similar role.
Jigg: As I've said, the Pokémon franchise is likely the hungriest for reps and Jigg just doesn't carry its weight. But history and all that so not red.
Pokémon Trainer's Other Pokémon: Out for obvious reasons.
Lucas: This one is close, but I feel he is hanging by a thin thread. Mother 3 never left Japan and Earthbound is a small franchise. Its popular though so I still think he has a life line.
Ike: I think he will be cut to make room for the new FE protagonist.
R.O.B. & Game&Watch: I'm not sure where to put these two. I don't think they will make it, but Sakurai loves his random characters. If anything I'd say one make it and one doesn't, but no idea who to give the edge too. So I'll treat them the same.
Snake: Cut for obvious reasons.

And, for those that remember, when I first did this I had Toon Link and Lucario marked in red. Looking back that was a tad aggressive for Lucario, but I'm still shocked Toon Link made it in again.

[Agro]

Meta Knight better be nerf'd like crazy or cut. I don't want a repeat of Brawl.

Though I'm still thinking Jiggly and Ice Climbers find their way in.

[Shradow]

So, custom move sets.

 

We'll be able to make F.L.U.D.D. into a flamethrower, right? Kirby's Inhale was made into ice breath, I assume there's lots of freedom.

[Toffee.]

Kirby could also get fire:

[~British Soul~]

does that mean the rest are in as well then?

I think so, given that Drasna's room was seen as well

[Lonk]

Is everyone forgetting Kirby's final smash?

 

 

Unpleasant Female Dog.

[Shradow]

That pleases me, Kirby's been a favorite of mine since the first game. The change to Hammer Flip is cool as well.