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Phantom Roxas

By Phantom Roxas
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Do note that that's also the Chronological order that they were revealed/released, not just Separating Returners and Newcomers.

Does it look odd? Yes. Does it imply Wolf? Sadly not.

Yea, that ordering is a result of that just being the order they were revealed and the fact that 7 is an odd number of characters so its hard to make a visually appealing ordering. Though it certainly is ugly.

Actually, it's in REVERSE Chronological order since it should be read from top left to bottom right. I understand why they chose it. Essentially every block originates from that top corner, and each new character simply bumps the others back until you are left with this snake formation.

 

What baffles me is why they didn't take a step back, actually look at the darn thing, and say "hmmm...something ain't quite right here..."

I mean at least center the three on the bottom so there's equal white space on either side of the row -_-"

 

But yeah it really doesn't mean anything, and frankly I don't really care about wolf. He's a super precise rushdown character that falls faster than melee fox. I never actually liked him as a fighter, though I will admit it is fun watching wolf mains play in competitive.

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I was watching a Did you know Gaming vid on smash the other day, and one thing I found interesting (and I dunno if any of this has been mentioned already), was that Greninja was chosen to be in smash before Pokémon X/Y was released.

And going back to the clone thing; ie Dark Pit, Dr Mario and Lucina, they did originally start off as alt costumes, but then became standalone characters with tweaks in their moveset which didn't require many man hours.

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I was watching a Did you know Gaming vid on smash the other day, and one thing I found interesting (and I dunno if any of this has been mentioned already), was that Greninja was chosen to be in smash before Pokémon X/Y was released.

And going back to the clone thing; ie Dark Pit, Dr Mario and Lucina, they did originally start off as alt costumes, but then became standalone characters with tweaks in their moveset which didn't require many man hours.

 

Indeed.  The main reason for this was Dr. Mario.  With the way the team had designed the game, alt. costumes could not call different moveset data for that specific alt, as a lot of the changes that occur change almost every single property on every single move.  As such, the data would have to be stored on a null character in the game's code that is only called upon when the alt is selected.  However, that actually puts a decent amount of unnecessary strain on the system, since whenever the player inputs a move, the game has to first check if the alt is equipped, and if so, then check if the move should have different properties, and if so, override the base move with the new properties.  Not only that, but storing a null character like this opened up the potential for mapping glitches and other issues, where there might be some hypothetical and completely random or insane series of events that causes the null character's data to be mapped on top of a character it shouldn't be, and thus make some really broken hitboxes should that occur.

 

When they coded Dr. Mario, they wanted to make him similar to his Melee iteration, but found the amount of these moves that actually had to exist on the null character was basically everything about that character.  As such, it just seemed kind of stupid to leave them as alts and putting strain on the system and open up the possibility of glitches occurring with floating null data, rather than just making them their own characters at that point.  This change meant that the developers could also experiment with taking away the tipper mechanic from Lucina, and thus give her a bit more depth.  However I guess they came up short with Dark Pit, since literally I think only 3 of his moves actually has different frame data from Pit's :/

 

As for the Greninja thing, yeah it was basically a Corrin situation.  Someone said they should include a Pokemon from the upcoming X/Y games to relate to the current younger audience whom X/Y was realistically developed towards.  However in order to stay on schedule the team had to design the character well before X/Y's official release, and so Sakurai only really had descriptions of the starters to work with.  He thought a ninja type character would be a pretty good addition since the only other character who really falls into the archetype is Sheik, and so developed his moves around ideas the developers of X/Y had for him.  In fact Water Shuriken being a move in his arsenal was completely coincidental, as Sakurai just assumed a ninja would use that sort of weapon.

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So I've really come to love Robin.  I really like her playstyle now that I've gotten better accustomed to it, and once you establish dominance in the neutral a lot of my friends that I play with struggle to regain momentum.  There are so many neat traps you can do.

 

But enough about that, I'm actually gonna talk about a Robin tech I have only just stumbled upon, and one that I have been in the lab trying to figure out for the past few days.  Essentially, it's Arcthunder -> Levin Sword Dair (which I will henceforth call LSDair) Sweetspoted.  So essentially, Arcthunder -> Spike.

Wooptie do right?  Not like every other Robin on the planet knows how to do that.  Well here's something curious a found out about while dicking around with some friends: If you are fast enough, and can get the Spike before the opponent is completely launched Arcthunder (aka at any point before the hitlag from hit #7 wears off and they actually start moving), AND they are under a certain percent, the launch angle from this combo goes completely bonkers.

 

Usually when you do this at higher percents, LSDair completely ignores hitlag and essentially cancels Arcthunder so that the Spike can play out as normal.  Yet in this strange case, you hear the spike sound, freeze frames play, but then the opponent gets launched sideways.  Not only that, but the actual angle changes as percent increases.  For example, if you do this at 0%, the opponent is launched at roughly a 45 to 30 degree angle upwards.  At the absolute last possible percent this still works against your opponent's character, it sends them in semi-spike trajectory, that being completely horizontal at launch.  This makes the combo, even if it doesn't actually kill, extremely difficult to actually recover from, if not impossible.

 

Also, I have do idea why, but the maximum percents as which this works can vary wildly between characters, even though it generally follows the trend of Char Weight.  For example, both Zelda and Sheik are the exact same weight, yet you can do it up to and including 72% for Zelda, but you can do it all the way to 89% for Sheik.  Fall Speed may be a factor, but Bowser so far is the highest at 107%, but he's extremely light for his weight.  So idk.  I need to actually do every single character to find out the exact trend, which I am currently doing.  I need to look further into this, upon which I will update this, because it could potentially be very interesting on how the engine registers knockback merging, even though that was supposed to have been removed.

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So I've really come to love Robin.  I really like her playstyle now that I've gotten better accustomed to it, and once you establish dominance in the neutral a lot of my friends that I play with struggle to regain momentum.  There are so many neat traps you can do.

 

But enough about that, I'm actually gonna talk about a Robin tech I have only just stumbled upon, and one that I have been in the lab trying to figure out for the past few days.  Essentially, it's Arcthunder -> Levin Sword Dair (which I will henceforth call LSDair) Sweetspoted.  So essentially, Arcthunder -> Spike.

Wooptie do right?  Not like every other Robin on the planet knows how to do that.  Well here's something curious a found out about while dicking around with some friends: If you are fast enough, and can get the Spike before the opponent is completely launched Arcthunder (aka at any point before the hitlag from hit #7 wears off and they actually start moving), AND they are under a certain percent, the launch angle from this combo goes completely bonkers.

 

Usually when you do this at higher percents, LSDair completely ignores hitlag and essentially cancels Arcthunder so that the Spike can play out as normal.  Yet in this strange case, you hear the spike sound, freeze frames play, but then the opponent gets launched sideways.  Not only that, but the actual angle changes as percent increases.  For example, if you do this at 0%, the opponent is launched at roughly a 45 to 30 degree angle upwards.  At the absolute last possible percent this still works against your opponent's character, it sends them in semi-spike trajectory, that being completely horizontal at launch.  This makes the combo, even if it doesn't actually kill, extremely difficult to actually recover from, if not impossible.

 

Also, I have do idea why, but the maximum percents as which this works can vary wildly between characters, even though it generally follows the trend of Char Weight.  For example, both Zelda and Sheik are the exact same weight, yet you can do it up to and including 72% for Zelda, but you can do it all the way to 89% for Sheik.  Fall Speed may be a factor, but Bowser so far is the highest at 107%, but he's extremely light for his weight.  So idk.  I need to actually do every single character to find out the exact trend, which I am currently doing.  I need to look further into this, upon which I will update this, because it could potentially be very interesting on how the engine registers knockback merging, even though that was supposed to have been removed.

 As a Robin main, I'm glad to hear that they're spreading.

 

Also neat tech, too bad I'm terrible at teching literally anything in this game.

 

Also I will now pass on the key to a good robin play: the fff***ing down throw. Combos into dsmash and a shitton of other things I can't remember. Use the dthrow. 

 

EDIT: Also turns out I'm terrible at online play, simply because I lag for some unknown reason whenever I go online. Any tips for counteracting this?

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So for all you nerds who actually care, I've finished my research in the lab and have come up with some pretty interesting results.  To start off, here is the last possible percent (without Rage factored in) that this combo has the weird launch angle for each character (not including Limit Charged Cloud and all of Shulk's Manando Arts because I only have 3DS and you can't control the CPU in training on 3DS):

[spoiler By order of Char Weight]

SUPERHEAVY
1) Bowser  ---  107%
2) Donkey Kong  ---  96%
3) DeDeDe  ---  95%
4) Charizard  ---  99%
5) Ganondorf  ---  97%
 
HEAVY
6) Bowser Jr.  ---  85%
7) Samus  ---  86%
8) Ike  ---  89%
9) Wario  ---  89%
10) R.O.B.  ---  88%
11) C. Falcon  ---  94%
12) Link  ---  88%
13) Yoshi  ---  85%
14) Ryu  ---  94%
15) Shulk  ---  85%
16) Megaman  ---  90%
17) Mii Sword  ---  86%
18) Mii Fight  ---  87%
19) Mii Gun  ---  84%
20) Cloud  ---  87%
21) Lucario  ---  83%
 
MIDDLE
22) Mario  ---  83%
23) Dr. Mario  ---  83%
24) Villager  ---  80%
25) Luigi  ---  79%
26) Wii Fit  ---  82%
27) Pit  ---  80%
28) Dark Pit  ---  80%
29) Robin  ---  82%
30) Sonic  ---  81%
31) Roy  ---  87%
32) Pac-man  ---  78%
33) Greninja  ---  102%
34) Ness  ---  78%
35) Lucas  ---  81%
36) Toon Link  ---  78%
37) Diddy Kong  ---  84%
38) Palutena  ---  83%
39) Duck Hunt  ---  76%
40) Marth  ---  75%
41) Lucina  ---  75%
42) Peach  ---  73%
 
FEATHER
43) Zelda  ---  72%
44) Sheik  ---  89%
45) Falco  ---  83%
46) Little Mac  ---  72%
47) ZSS  ---  80%
48) Meta Knight  ---  77%
49) Fox  ---  94%
50) Pikachu  ---  73%
51) Olimar  ---  68%
52) Rosalina  ---  70%
53) Kirby  ---  67%
54) G&W  ---  68%
 
BALLOON
55) Mewtwo  ---  67%
56) Jigglypuff  ---  59%

 
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So essentially it follows the trend of Char Weight fairly well, but Fast Fallers are the odd ones out for this list.  And that helped me figure out exactly why this works.
 
[spoiler This is about to get technical.  I tried to explain it with examples and using as much Layman terms as possible, but it still might be confusing to some]
Through some research I found out that while Knockback Merging no longer exists in Smash 4 and Brawl, Knockback Stacking is still present.  This is essentially the formula that tells the game what to do when an opponent that is already in knockback from an attack is struck once again with a new angle and power.  To make this much simpler, Brawl and Smash 4 completely removed Melee's incredibly confusing system and made it quite simple: The angle of the Stronger of the 2 attacks is kept.  However the Magnitude of the Knockback becomes the Resultant of the 2 Knockback Vectors.  For example, if you get hit with Captain Falcon's Knee Smash in teams, but then immediately afterwards you a Knee'd in the opposite direction by the other Falcon, physics says that you should stop dead, or at least not move very far.  Since that's dumb and funk physics, Smash 4 simply adds the 2 magnitudes, averages it out, and moves in the direction of the stronger Knockback.  Since the Knee has the same BKB and KBG as...the knee...(duh?), the victim is obviously at a higher percent when hit by the 2nd knee, and thus will fy in the direction of the 2nd knee.
 
How does this apply to Robin and this madness?  Well the answer is quite simple, and it has to do with the properties of Arcthunder.  If you look at Robin's frame data, you will notice that Arcthunder has 3 main hit types.  The first hit, then 6 linking hits, then a 7th launching hit.  Something else you may notice, is that those 6 linking hits all hit with the infamous angle of 366 degrees.  That sounds rediculous, but in smash games every angle above 360 degrees is actually a specialized variable knockback angle.  In particular, angles 365, 366, and 367 are all called autolink angles.  Essentially, they are angles designed to knock the victim in the angle of which the attacker or projectile is currently moving.  This makes sense.  Arcthunder's first hit sends opponent's backwards slightly, so these autolink hitboxes force Arcthunder to keep the opponent locked at the back half of the attack, and without the ability to SDI out of it.
 
And this is where the madness comes in.  When you strike your opponent with LSDair during these middle hits, the game has to calculate Knockback Stacking.  However, since LSDair is not only a Meteor Smash, but also an Electric Attack, it gains more Freeze Frames than average moves.  Which gives just enough time for all of Arcthunder's hits to connect while the game is still trying to factor in LSDair (knockback is not formally calculated and submitted until hitlag is over, which is a long ass time with electric attacks.  Just look at the Knee).
 
So what I believe is happening is that the last hit and middle hits of arcthunder are technically the same move, so even though LSDair should have more knockback than the middle hits, the final hit is the kicker.  Essentially, the final hit of arcthunder, at whatever percent they are at after you connect LSDair is stronger than LSDair at whatever percent you actually connected it.  This is a bit hard to explain, but it's a similar situation to the Double Knee example from before.  The final hit of Arcthunder comes out after or at the same time as LSDair, which means the percent from LSDair has already been added to the opponent.  If the Final Hit of Arcthunder would deal more Knockback than LSDair at the percent that LSDair adds, then the angle will be determined by the angle of arcthunder when LSDair landed.  That angle is 366%.  Which means your opponent is meteor smashed in the direction the attacker is traveling, in his case completely horizontally.  The percent at which this tech stops working is therefore the percent at which LSDair beats the last hit of Arcthunder in terms of knockback at that given percent, due to it's much better scaling and damage values.
 
Additionally, Arcthunder's looping hits use weight based knock back, which explains why this works to higher percents of fastfallers.  Any questions?  I can elaborate on specifics as you please if you want to know more

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