Super Smash Bros. 3DS/Wii U

[Blake]

You don't want TOO much diversity. Somewhat predictable diversity is good. Unrestricted diversity is bad.
 
Kind of like how Yugioh shouldn't have a ridiculous amount of decks that are all competitive because it would make having a side deck unhelpful.
 
There's a certain limit to how much you can prepare for, and if you're constantly getting something different that you're not prepared for, there's no way of really gauging skill.

Whi;e this is true, I don't think knowing 3 moves per slot per character is that big a deal, when most of them aren't that hard to see coming/understand, if any.

 

I know you weren't addressing that point- and as such, weren't addressing Moves themselves- just arguing the point. I doubt you're arguing againsnt the custom moves at all, tbh.

Part of the problem is your not going to know what to expect. The other is unlocking all of them.

... No?

 

You know it's going to be 1 of 3 things. A big tournament will have every fighter unlocked, so I don't see how expecting the copy used to play (seeing as WiiU WILL be the version in the end) and/or using it like a "play with what you have" system is wrong. That's how many games are.

 

This may be a fighter, but I don't see how it degrades the experience in the long run. The early meta game will be screwy anyways because of new stuff, so your "problem" isn't a problem.

[Flame Dragon]

... No?

 

You know it's going to be 1 of 3 things. A big tournament will have every fighter unlocked, so I don't see how expecting the copy used to play (seeing as WiiU WILL be the version in the end) and/or using it like a "play with what you have" system is wrong. That's how many games are.

 

This may be a fighter, but I don't see how it degrades the experience in the long run. The early meta game will be screwy anyways because of new stuff, so your "problem" isn't a problem.

 

Thats still almost 400 more moves to expect to know. Not to mention for people that don't play with them are going to be at a disadvantage since they aren't going to know how certain moves behave. Unlocking all the characters is really easy, getting all the custom pieces on the other hand is FAR from it. It also isn't helped by them being gotten at random. You want knowns in a game like this, and for competitive play adding in all this extra stuff does have a real cost. I can not speak for how big a cost it will be, but it can't be ignored. 

[Agro]

Whi;e this is true, I don't think knowing 3 moves per slot per character is that big a deal, when most of them aren't that hard to see coming/understand, if any.
 
I know you weren't addressing that point- and as such, weren't addressing Moves themselves- just arguing the point. I doubt you're arguing againsnt the custom moves at all, tbh.

You're doubt is justified. There's only a few moves, which is controlled. Having a bit of unpredictability is fun. Like what moves a Pokémon knows, except with less random losses due to accuracy and critical hits. Custom moves add variation, but don't entirely change what to expect from a character. Like choosing different cards to play in a Yugioh deck. Obviously some will be better than others, but sometimes you may want to tech or do something more unexpected.

Equipment on the other hand...

[Blake]

Thats still almost 400 more moves to expect to know. Not to mention for people that don't play with them are going to be at a disadvantage since they aren't going to know how certain moves behave. Unlocking all the characters is really easy, getting all the custom pieces on the other hand is FAR from it. It also isn't helped by them being gotten at random. You want knowns in a game like this, and for competitive play adding in all this extra stuff does have a real cost. I can not speak for how big a cost it will be, but it can't be ignored.

400 argument does not hold up in the least.
 
Hell, it's not like you have to remember them at random. You have to remember them attached to a character. In and of itself, that makes it easier to remember. Your number of 400~ is just a way of overblowing and manipulating the concept of 8 per character. That's much, much less daunting to think about, considering you already have to know a MINIMUM of 8 of their moves at the absolute basest level.
 
And if it was used competitively, then everyone would know them, and the "but unfair to those who don't know" doesn't hold up.
 
Having the custom moves encourages more thoughts to matchups and the like, if only a bit. For example, Megaman.
 
He has 3 shields. Leaf Shield, Skull Shield, Plant Shield.
 
Leaf is generic and basic.
 
Skull Shield is anti-projectile, giving him a potential matchup aid.
 
Plant Shield is tankier in general but isn't good for throwing, generally.
 
While these are the worst moves he has to customize, they're still relevant enough to enrich the game. 
 
Don't know what you mean by a "cost", to be honest. It would take time, yeah, but I don't see the problem with it on the whole. The randomness point definitely stands, but that's a matter of time. And it's not like, in personal play, YOU would have to grind for each and every one (see: 3DS, mainly), because you can just grind out what you need and then test and test, and grind as you need. Smash Run also seems to have a high chance of getting the moves for the current character, when it rolls custom moves. Not insanely high, but not awful chance either. I've completed 6~7 characters already.

Randomness does stand for the whole point, but people will do research before going to a competitive event, anyways, if they're taking it seriously. Researching and testing. So randomness' lack of knowledge is entirely on the one lacking it. For unlocking purposes, entirely on what you want to unlock to compete (3DS) and on important copies for Tournaments (WiiU).

EDIT: and I didn't even refine my point as much as I could. It's 3 per slot. So it's not even "8 per character", it's "3 per 1 of 4 slots on a character", which thins it down even more.
 

You're doubt is justified. There's only a few moves, which is controlled. Having a bit of unpredictability is fun. Like what moves a Pokémon knows, except with less random losses due to accuracy and critical hits. Custom moves add variation, but don't entirely change what to expect from a character. Like choosing different cards to play in a Yugioh deck. Obviously some will be better than others, but sometimes you may want to tech or do something more unexpected.

Equipment on the other hand...

Agro captures anything else I could say perfectly.

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

Fox isn't even god tier, though...

[Agro]

Fox isn't even god tier, though...

NO ITEMS. FINAL DESTINATION. ZERO SUIT ONLY.

that better?

[Flame Dragon]

Having the custom moves encourages more thoughts to matchups and the like, if only a bit.

 

Don't know what you mean by a "cost", to be honest. It would take time, yeah, but I don't see the problem with it on the whole. The randomness point definitely stands, but that's a matter of time. And it's not like, in personal play, YOU would have to grind for each and every one (see: 3DS, mainly), because you can just grind out what you need and then test and test, and grind as you need. Smash Run also seems to have a high chance of getting the moves for the current character, when it rolls custom moves. Not insanely high, but not awful chance either. I've completed 6~7 characters already.

Randomness does stand for the whole point, but people will do research before going to a competitive event, anyways, if they're taking it seriously. Researching and testing. So randomness' lack of knowledge is entirely on the one lacking it. For unlocking purposes, entirely on what you want to unlock to compete (3DS) and on important copies for Tournaments (WiiU).

EDIT: and I didn't even refine my point as much as I could. It's 3 per slot. So it's not even "8 per character", it's "3 per 1 of 4 slots on a character", which thins it down even more.
 
Agro captures anything else I could say perfectly.

 

 

Cost as is in its more information to learn and more work to get. It feels like your over simplifying things a bit. In order to properly prepare your going to need to actually play against all the custom moves. Obviously, not all of them is going to be relevant and not all of them are going to be huge changes (tbqh I know like 5 of them, I haven't cared about these at all), but thats still a lot more work, especially since your going to need to unlock them. And unlocking all 400 or so for the Wii U is going to take a TON of time, where as the characters can be done in under in hour with 1 stock level 1 computers. 

 

Agro's point about the other games just highlights other games. When a player sits down to play any game, its going to have an expected level of randomness. When I play a game of pokemon, or MTG I know what to expect. The same is true of Smash, and customs moves throw a wrench in the works since its no longer just the 49 characters you need to know, but all their customs moves too. I'm not saying this is inherently a bad thing, that was never my intent, but I'm just trying to be aware of the issues that come with it. Like, saying it forces you to think about the match up raises the question of should players be able to change their custom moves between a game? Obviously the issue of the moves being used being public knowlege or not is also an important question. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be accounted for too, and other examples of costs that would come with the costome moves since its more work to figure out how they should be used if they are. 

[Agro]

"This isn't how smash works" can't be your argument.

You're going to know quickly in a match what moves your opponent is using, even if it's not made public beforehand, and the variation on each is only uniquely different in Palutena's case. Meaning there's only going to be one character where you may need to change your strategy depending on what moves they're using.

And like you pointed out, it's possible for tournaments to make the customization visible prior to the match, so you know EXACTLY what you're dealing with anyway. The cost of "work" for tournaments is entirely their decision in whether they want to put in the effort, and is not an argument for not allowing custom moves overall.

So it's not really a problem unless a certain set of custom moves makes a character S-Tier, which as of yet doesn't appear to be the case.

[Blake]

Cost as is in its more information to learn and more work to get. It feels like your over simplifying things a bit. In order to properly prepare your going to need to actually play against all the custom moves. Obviously, not all of them is going to be relevant and not all of them are going to be huge changes (tbqh I know like 5 of them, I haven't cared about these at all), but thats still a lot more work, especially since your going to need to unlock them. And unlocking all 400 or so for the Wii U is going to take a TON of time, where as the characters can be done in under in hour with 1 stock level 1 computers.

3 per slot per character. That's not hard to learn, and it's not hard to get a basic idea of what you're doing through research. Testing can be important, of course, but that's why I said unlock as needed. A surprise tech choice doing well in a tournament doesn't meant that it's a bad thing, at all, and that's what your argument hinges on. That encourages more thought going in, than anything.

They fix a lot of mediocre moves that are on the main sets, and just make the experience more enjoyable and make it more important to know what you're getting into. Again, the burden of knowledge is on the players, not the game, and to try and put it on the game is absurd.

Yeah, it'd take time to unlock them, but in unlocking them you enrich the game. That doesn't sound like an issue, overall.
 

Agro's point about the other games just highlights other games. When a player sits down to play any game, its going to have an expected level of randomness. When I play a game of pokemon, or MTG I know what to expect. The same is true of Smash, and customs moves throw a wrench in the works since its no longer just the 49 characters you need to know, but all their customs moves too. I'm not saying this is inherently a bad thing, that was never my intent, but I'm just trying to be aware of the issues that come with it. Like, saying it forces you to think about the match up raises the question of should players be able to change their custom moves between a game? Obviously the issue of the moves being used being public knowlege or not is also an important question. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be accounted for too, and other examples of costs that would come with the costome moves since its more work to figure out how they should be used if they are.

It highlights how metagames work, and how diversity, as long as it's not too diverse, can only help a game.

 

It doesn't throw a wrench in it at all. That implies it is, inherently, a bad thing. You keep using large base numbers to justify an argument that boils down to 3 choices per slot per character. That's not hard to remember in the least for someone who remembers their less than flashy moves already.

 

How is thinking "should 'side-decking' be allowed or not" a thing to detract from using them? That seems more reason to. It make characters with multiple moveslot choices for matchups become "will this be too good with it or not".

 

Figuring out which custom move is best and why for whatever situation is what people do. People are going to do so regardless of if moves are allowed competitively or not, so I don't see how that point even holds.

[Flame Dragon]

"This isn't how smash works" can't be your argument.

You're going to know quickly in a match what moves your opponent is using, even if it's not made public beforehand, and the variation on each is only uniquely different in Palutena's case. Meaning there's only going to be one character where you may need to change your strategy depending on what moves they're using.

And like you pointed out, it's possible for tournaments to make the customization visible prior to the match, so you know EXACTLY what you're dealing with anyway.

So it's not really a problem unless a certain set of custom moves makes a character S-Tier, which as of yet doesn't appear to be the case.

 

You might not know right away what their special is. I can go whole games without using a certain special, and keeping that information hidden is advantages to the players. As such, keeping important changed moves hidden would be a smart thing to do. As said, I have no clear idea how much the custom moves affect moves, but I don't think its that minor. Though it is fair that I think they are more major than they really are. 

 

In reflection, I'll give I might be overly pessimistic, but until I really get into that part of the game, this is just what my gut is telling me. Again, I could be way off base.

[Agro]

You might not know right away what their special is. I can go whole games without using a certain special, and keeping that information hidden is advantages to the players. As such, keeping important changed moves hidden would be a smart thing to do. As said, I have no clear idea how much the custom moves affect moves, but I don't think its that minor. Though it is fair that I think they are more major than they really are. 
 
In reflection, I'll give I might be overly pessimistic, but until I really get into that part of the game, this is just what my gut is telling me. Again, I could be way off base.

Having an ace in the hole doesn't ruin anything, even if the moves do something drastically different like Palutena. Every move you show to your opponent is balancing risk and reward. You can either make use of it and let them know what you're using or save it and keep the information.

Smash Bros as a game has remained relatively unchanged since its inception. To argue that it shouldn't add new and interesting folds into the game because it wouldn't be Smash Bros anymore is not only foolhardy but detrimental to the evolution of the franchise as a whole, especially when the changes only make players have to use their brains more often.

If I wanted the same game every time, I would play Project M.

[Flame Dragon]

Having an ace in the hole doesn't ruin anything, even if the moves do something drastically different like Palutena. Every move you show to your opponent is balancing risk and reward. You can either make use of it and let them know what you're using or save it and keep the information.

Smash Bros as a game has remained relatively unchanged since its inception. To argue that it shouldn't add new and interesting folds into the game because it wouldn't be Smash Bros anymore is not only foolhardy but detrimental to the evolution of the franchise as a whole, especially when the changes only make players have to use their brains more often.

If I wanted the same game every time, I would play Project M.

 

 

I'm not at all argueing they shouldn't add this in. I think its a sweet addition. I'm just pessimistic about using it in tournaments. 

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

NO ITEMS. FINAL DESTINATION. ZERO SUIT ONLY.

that better?

Much better.

[Lonk]

I'm not at all argueing they shouldn't add this in. I think its a sweet addition. I'm just pessimistic about using it in tournaments. 

 

At this point, everything is theory.  So far, none of the customs have triggered any red lights regarding game-breaking moves, and it was stated that it would add in a good amount of variance.

 

If people are willing, we can try to play around with that theory by holding custom matches where only the specials are customized.  From there, we can make a clear and concise judgment.

 

Unfortunately, nobody ever responds to my invitation for a custom match...

[Flame Dragon]

At this point, everything is theory.  So far, none of the customs have triggered any red lights regarding game-breaking moves, and it was stated that it would add in a good amount of variance.

 

If people are willing, we can try to play around with that theory by holding custom matches where only the specials are customized.  From there, we can make a clear and concise judgment.

 

Unfortunately, nobody ever responds to my invitation for a custom match...

 

I personally have like 25% of the custom moves, but I've spent ZERO time with them. Will likely only look into them once I have them all.

[Shradow]

I'll probably not play as Shulk too much (or I may end up loving him, I dunno), but I'll definitely put enough time into him that I'm familiar with his stat augments. And I'm not worried about custom moves since they're not applicable in For Glory mode.

 

So I'm looking on the wiki since it compiles a list of changes from Brawl for each returning character, and there's a lot of stuff I'm liking with the characters I play. In particular, I noticed Peach has a ton of buffs.

[Flame Dragon]

I'll probably not play as Shulk too much (or I may end up loving him, I dunno), but I'll definitely put enough time into him that I'm familiar with his stat augments. And I'm not worried about custom moves since they're not applicable in For Glory mode.

 

So I'm looking on the wiki since it compiles a list of changes from Brawl for each returning character, and there's a lot of stuff I'm liking with the characters I play. In particular, I noticed Peach has a ton of buffs.

 

I feel like a lot of Brawl characters were buffed. I'd link the link though.

[Shradow]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Peach_(SSB4)

 

For other characters just go to their respective pages.

 

One of my favorites is how with Ike, if you hit someone in midair with Quick Draw, you don't go into the helpless state.

[DL]

In regards to the custom moves thing, I'd like to point out that a lot of them aren't drastically different from the original, and you should be able to recognize what a special move does when you first see it and learn that it exists even if you didn't already.

 

I didn't know what Duck Hunt dog did but I fought him in For Glory mode and now I hate frisbees.

[Toffee.]

I'll just leave this here:


Also, I did not know this:

[Shradow]

That joke needs to be in every Nintendo game possible. So far we've got FE:A and SSB4, let's keep going!

[Toffee.]

That joke needs to be in every Nintendo game possible. So far we've got FE:A and SSB4, let's keep going!

Didn't they have it in Pokemon X/Y?
.....Or was it Black/White 2.

I forget.

[Shradow]

Oh right, it was in X/Y as well. One of the guys in Victory Road said it, I think.

[Fusion X. Denver]

I looked through the wiki, seems like Luigi and Toon Link are still good for me. Although taking away the bouncing from Toon Link's down aerial's probably gonna hurt me a bit.

Same with Lucario's down aerial no longer halting momentum slightly.

Considering how often I abused those though, I guess I can see the interest behind balancing things...

[Master Hyperion]

How are you people unlocking all those customs outfits so quickly? I've played classic mode with all characters, played trophy smash a few times and played Smash Run a few times, but my clothing collection I have is still very small.